EvilDragon's Pre-Order Survey Thread

[dooble]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Evil Dragon}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


The whole situation isn't fair, whining about it to the person who is doing his best to get you what you paid for is probably the stupidest thing you can do.

This is really the best view of this project from several points of view.  The preorders feeling helpless, ED working hard and long on trying to work his way through it.

preorders airing their frustration is understandable and their right, but is not helpful to a resolution unless they want to end any chance of any positive resolution of themselves or others in the same boat.  As one of the preorders I would push for letting ED try to work his way through the process as I see no other reasonable way to get any kind of recovery.

for those who effectively tell the preorders that they have no standing, this only fuels the flames and frustrations.   There is more than just two companies here, a Walmart and Target as used as examples.  There is little use in going down that path for preorders as the result likely still ends up badly for preorders and maybe others.

There are no deep pockets to supply your pandora or refund.  Give ED a chance to work through the plan without bashing him.  Personally I'm thankful to see ED making some progress and glad he is willing to deal with this.

doob

 

[timwylie]

Not to derail this thread, but as far as a monetary refund, the only preorder survey option was for a full refund.  There were several upgrade pricepoints which has been discussed, but it might have also been helpful to help them clear the queue to have options like $200 refund, $100 refund, or no refund.  I don't have the money to upgrade, but I would have gladly taken a 50% refund and just bought a used pandora.

I think several preorderers may be happy just to get something back and don't mind donating the rest.  Maybe this has already been discussed somewhere else.  Just a thought.

 

[Nagelfar]

The problem is, as Craig doesn't have any money whatsoever he couldn't even do a 50% or whatever refund option. For ED handling refund in terms of money would be a legal and liability nightmare so I hope he steers well clear of that. Already offering to take over Craigs mess and basically send out free units to his customers is more than I would have done and more than I would ever agree to do. Involving direct money transfer would almost certainly lead into a huge clusterfuck.

 

[dooble]

The problem is, as Craig doesn't have any money whatsoever he couldn't even do a 50% or whatever refund option. For ED handling refund in terms of money would be a legal and liability nightmare so I hope he steers well clear of that. Already offering to take over Craigs mess and basically send out free units to his customers is more than I would have done and more than I would ever agree to do. Involving direct money transfer would almost certainly lead into a huge clusterfuck.

This was answered differently in a previous thread.  I don't think people would ask for a refund with not possibility of receiving one.

 

[timwylie]

But it was one of the survey options.  There were different upgrade options, a wait it out option, and a refund option.  Plus, wouldn't giving a $200 refund be cheaper than sending out a >$200 unit?

 

[andmaz777]

Amazingly some people going round in circles but put simply!


No money left from pre orders.


Only way to get more money is donations and new sales - at the Pandoras price no one will pay that and wait!


There are no other options as the investors route has already been taken and still new sales are needed to keep things going.


Only other option is for someone to donate enough to cover the pre orders.


These things happen all the time Companies run out of money despite a good product and go bankrupt - even very profitable Companies can go bankrupt if staff cannot be paid etc.

 

[Nagelfar]

This was answered differently in a previous thread.  I don't think people would ask for a refund with not possibility of receiving one.

Where and how was that answered in a different way?About people, you are mistaken.

But it was one of the survey options.  There were different upgrade options, a wait it out option, and a refund option.  Plus, wouldn't giving a $200 refund be cheaper than sending out a >$200 unit?

Yes there was a refund option in the survey. That doesn't mean ED would just start giving money to people.About giving 200 refund instead of a >200 unit. True but consider this: You don't have any money left but you got enough parts to produce another 100 units. What would be better for you, delivering units or refunding money? (This is just an example, reality is much more complicated than this)

 

[timwylie]

Yes there was a refund option in the survey. That doesn't mean ED would just start giving money to people. About giving 200 refund instead of a >200 unit. True but consider this: You don't have any money left but you got enough parts to produce another 100 units. What would be better for you, delivering units or refunding money? (This is just an example, reality is much more complicated than this)

I agree.  I was just reiterating that the refund was offered in the survey, which I assume means that those people will just wait until pandora is profitable again. And whether it's easier to send a product or partial refund would depend on whether they have all the pandoras in stock, and if they plan to produce anymore units.  Anyway, I was simply asking because there may be others that would take $100 just to be done with it.

 

[vcoleiro1]

^ Acually its pretty simple, for those that requested a refund , new sales and donations could pay for them instead of building them a Pandora as has been said.  

As far as the 100 Pandoras that can be built with Craigs returns, they would go to people who elected to still get a Pandora. There is enough of them.  The 2 things are not mutually exclusive.  

Frankly, the plan for those who elect for a refund still needs to be communicated as I'm sure it will in time.

 

[dooble]

This was answered differently in a previous thread.  I don't think people would ask for a refund with not possibility of receiving one.

Where and how was that answered in a different way?
About people, you are mistaken.

But it was one of the survey options.  There were different upgrade options, a wait it out option, and a refund option.  Plus, wouldn't giving a $200 refund be cheaper than sending out a >$200 unit?

Yes there was a refund option in the survey. That doesn't mean ED would just start giving money to people.
About giving 200 refund instead of a >200 unit. True but consider this: You don't have any money left but you got enough parts to produce another 100 units. What would be better for you, delivering units or refunding money? (This is just an example, reality is much more complicated than this)

This was answered differently in a previous thread.  I don't think people would ask for a refund with not possibility of receiving one.

Where and how was that answered in a different way?
About people, you are mistaken.

But it was one of the survey options.  There were different upgrade options, a wait it out option, and a refund option.  Plus, wouldn't giving a $200 refund be cheaper than sending out a >$200 unit?

Yes there was a refund option in the survey. That doesn't mean ED would just start giving money to people.
About giving 200 refund instead of a >200 unit. True but consider this: You don't have any money left but you got enough parts to produce another 100 units. What would be better for you, delivering units or refunding money? (This is just an example, reality is much more complicated than this)

the different way -- see below in red from a post by ED, post #284 on this page .  Not that this really does not obligate ED as he notes, but does open the door on refunds as well as filling craig's pre-orders.  It is likely cheaper to refund in many cases if the original pre-orders were really that under priced.

So much for the past, now onto the future...

As you know, production is running stable now, so no production issues anymore.

Right now, we're getting a failure rate of about 2%, which is pretty good.

I plan to produce and sell about 2000 more Pandoras and get back all funds the investors put in.

Of course, whatever may happen, I'll only be liable for my customers. But I still want to try to take car for Craigs customers as good as possible as well.

So what does this mean?

It means: I'll try to fulfill his remaining preorders as good as I can afford it and pay back refunds even in case his company goes bankrupt.

However, I can only do so when I can afford that, so you might not get a refund or your preorder right away. As I'm not liable for these preorders, you couldn't force me to refund you.

As for people, you may be right.  But I would think one would either want something for their money or to have it count as a contribution/donation to the cause.  To demand a refund when it is known there will be none is kind of pointless.

doob

 

[Nagelfar]

@doob:

The important part being: as good as possible, try, liable for my customers, can afford it

Also, this was 6 months ago, a lot has changed, there's more info on craigs customers etc.

The baseline still is (and will be): Craig has no money left. Craig can not afford to pay any refunds whatsoever. A refund will always be your worst option, will take the longest and will put you at the back of any queues there might be.

 

[dooble]

@nagelfar

1.   I don't disagree with the first line except it being the important part.  I think the excerpt around the word try needs to be considered in context.  It equal weights units and refunds.   I do not argue the "liable" term as I reiterated in that previous post.
2. ED was involved in this last survey.  It should have been noted in the survey if  the landscape had changed and the likelihood of refunds had changed.  I take ED's quoted post to put refund and fulfillment to be on equal weighting.  I would expect refunds to be provided later even though  they are likely less expensive assuming the cost of a produced unit is more than was paid by original pre-orders.  It makes more sense from a project longevity  viewpoint.  So in terms of "worst option" this is likely true.
   
   

   For ED handling refund in terms of money would be a legal and liability nightmare

   Not sure how refunding and sending units is different legally.  Could you explain?  There is a headache of delivery.

I would of opted for delivery of a unit if refunds are out of the question.  My son might not have used it, but better to have it verse nothing since he might use it.

I'm not sure "what has changed in the last 6 months".  I don't follow the boards very often until a thread like this shows up.  It sounds like the big revelation came after this survey was mostly completed and numbers came out.  I would assume the refund option was sincere if this is the big change.  Craig had not  money from where I pulled ED post so it is not new information.

I was going to trade my pre-order for a couple real ales in a UK pub and a conversation next time I'm in the UK.    However, the next time I'll be there will be in the west country and London, quite a trip for Craig.  Likely a loss of money on the deal with distance to travel.

doob.

 

[Nagelfar]

It equal weights units and refunds.

I take ED's quoted post to put refund and fulfillment to be on equal weighting.

That is your interpretation and I think it is wrong.

and the likelihood of refunds had changed

It hasn't. It is close to zero, has been close to zero for a very long time and will remain close to zero for some more time.

Not sure how refunding and sending units is different legally. Could you explain?

How would you argue that ED should just give money to Craig to refund all you people?

if refunds are out of the question

They are not out of the questions, there is just a very low probability.

I'm not sure "what has changed in the last 6 months".

For starters, ED cleared his queue.

It sounds like the big revelation came after this survey was mostly completed and numbers came out.

There was. The number of units Craig still has to deliver is on the upper end of the spectrum and certainly more than he should receive. But this has been reiterated here times and times again...I'm trying to come up with a good translation of the german term "merkbefreit" but I can't...

I would assume the refund option was sincere

It is. Just don't expect it to happen any time soon.

 

[xcen]

I think a lot of you are being slightly unfair to OldJim.  I made the same point a while back.  I am extremely grateful for Ed and all of his work, and maybe someday I'll either get a pandora, my money back, or at least a postcard saying "sorry, we tried."  I also know that the region based ordering was Craig's doing, which also speaks more highly of Ed.  But it was not clear that the companies were two separate entities.  Even now, you'd be hard pressed to go to openpandora.org and figure out that it essentially represents two different companies entirely.  Like OldJim, I thought it was one company with multiple distribution points for shipping/currency reasons.  This does not make it Ed's responsibility, but it certainly sucks for everyone who wasn't given a clear picture of what was going on, and just because they used the store they were TOLD to use by the site openpandora.org, they may never get their device.  Being told to use a specific place to order by the website representing multiple companies is confusing, especially since it wasn't clear there was a division.

I'm not trying to blame anyone, but what if you ordered something from nintendo.com and that order was placed with one of nintendo's branches (like the US one), and that branch sucked so you were screwed.  Would you feel nintendo still owed you something or just that branch?  This would only be compounded if on nintendo's page it said you weren't allowed to import from japan, but had to use the local branch.

That example isn't perfect, I just wanted to say that it wasn't clear that there were two companies, and there is still only one website.  Again, this is not Ed's fault, but you guys could have a little more compassion on the customers in this boat - especially after almost 5 years.  Insults on either side are bad form.

Very good points but I think most of us (or at least I) were reacting to the false claims about the legality of the thing...

I guess those of us who just want details about the progress are a bit jaded about the constant complaining, finger pointing and ridiculous claims we have to filter to get the info we are interested in.

 

[dooble]

@nagelfar

on the unit verse refund weighting,  yes it is my interpretation.  Only  ED could provide the meaning of what he meant at that point in time or we could go look at the thread to see if there is any more context.  As for refunds I  think I stated that I would expect these to be after all pre-order units were delivered, so yes a long time.

How would you argue that ED should just give money to Craig to refund all you people?

 
Your reply does not address the question of why refunding money verse supplying a unit would be illegal.  Again, could you explain your rant?

First I said nothing about giving money to Craig, full stop.  If ED sends units to fulfill orders that cost more to make than what  was paid, then sending a refund is less costly.   Again from ED post referenced before " It means: I'll try to fulfill his remaining preorders as good as I can afford it and pay back refunds even in case his company goes bankrupt."  As I've stated before I think ED is trying to make people as whole as possible.

I may have misunderstood you so correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I think you agreed with me that the extent of the number of units remaining in Craig's queue came out as a result of the survey.  So when the survey was sent out I assume the refund was a sincere option as the extent of Craig's commitments were unknown (based on the assumption that the depth of Craig's queue was unknown).   But yes I have to admit this is just my guess based on a positive attitude.

I am surprised that there was no comment on trading my pre-order for a couple real ales and some conversation in a UK pub.

I hope these posts come across as intended, no anger or bad intent.  I think highly of what I believe ED is trying to do.  I really don't have bad feeling toward Craig other than his lack of replies.  

doob

 

[dooble]

Your reply does not address the question of why refunding money verse supplying a unit would be illegal.

I didn't say it was illegal, didn't I? I said it would be a legal and liability nightmare. I would try to explain in your native language but I'm not sure which one that might be (and if I speak it), it's certainly not english.

If ED sends units to fulfill orders that cost more to make than what was paid, then sending a refund is less costly.

Reiterating your argument certainly won't help in showing, that you understood, that reality is far more complex than that.

but I think you agreed with me that the extent of the number of units remaining in Craig's queue came out as a result of the survey.

It is true that we learned the number because of that, at least to a certain degree. But I didn't agree with you as you didn't state it.

I hope these posts come across as intended, no anger or bad intent.

No but you don't come across as being the quickest thinker nor as anyone who can accept the facts (and understand them) even if presented in a very simple way.

My first language is English, or as my British friends anyways  corrected me, American English.  

You are correct that you did not say illegal,  but a legal and liability nightmare.  I may not understand the legal and liability issues and would love an explanation.  I agree there is another detail to deal with and standard postage would  likely not be right.   But relatively small amounts as pre-order refunds would likely not be subject to the laws associated with money laundering  and the like.  I understand the legal and liability issue, I do see some logistics issues.

I think we are looking at this from two different reference points and not willing to budge.  However, I will not get into the personal insults. 

I just hope ED will chime in and clarify what the plan is in terms of refunds.

doob

 

[F_Slim]

I guess the mail for the survey only went to those who are still in Craigs queue, right? So the amount of people who actually said that they want a refund now might be rather low. However, nobody knows how many refunds there are in total. There could be less than fifty, but there could also be several hundred. Maybe even more? It could be suicide to take on any responsibilities here.

My guess is that for now only standing orders will be handled anyway. Once Craigs queue is cleared one can start to think about the refunds ... I wouldn't do it at all to be honest. I see the refunds as debts of Craigs company, and I see no reason why ED's company should take them over? Especially since I also believe that the number of refunds you get it strongly related to the way you run your business and treat your customers.

 

[dooble]

I guess the mail for the survey only went to those who are still in Craigs queue, right? So the amount of people who actually said that they want a refund now might be rather low. However, nobody knows how many refunds there are in total. There could be less than fifty, but there could also be several hundred. Maybe even more? It could be suicide to take on any responsibilities here.

My guess is that for now only standing orders will be handled anyway. Once Craigs queue is cleared one can start to think about the refunds ... I wouldn't do it at all to be honest. I see the refunds as debts of Craigs company, and I see no reason why ED's company should take them over? Especially since I also believe that the number of refunds you get it strongly related to the way you run your business and treat your customers.

I understand your point, but see it a bit differently.  For one the refunds are for pre-orders.  Second, the pre-orders that want units are liabilities of Craig's company same as the ones that want refund.  Third, from what has been posted I believe the original pre-orders paid less than the COGS (cost of goods sold).  Assuming this is correct a refund would be less expensive unless you have the product already or WIP (work in progress) or sunk cost in significant parts that have no other use.

There are only 3 reasons that I can think of (one I won't post) that I can think of for ED doing this effort.  First he is just altruistic.  Second would be to improve the Open Pandora image, effectively goodwill.  Leaving the original people who funded the project out in the cold does not breed goodwill.  Most business people knows that one unhappy customer causes much more damage than a happy customer helps.  I'm sure there may be reasons that I haven't considered.

However, I agree with you  that I wouldn't want to do it.  I guess you said you wouldn't which is different.  I don't know if I would or would not as I'm not in that situation.  I don't know enough details to guess what I would do.  But I don't think is would be much fun.

doob 

 

[OldJim]

I did let a few days go by before posting again.
Hoping that things would cool down a bit. 

When I made my first post in this topic i realy was just looking for some answers - no bad intentions what so ever. I was just pointing out my PoV and asking to get some answers.

What really set my of where the responses i did get - and even more the tone of these responses.
And i have to admit some of them made me so angry that i responded back with some aggression myself.  
Responses Like:

EvilDragon, on 11 May 2013 - 1:48 PM, said:

I am not liable to you in any way, as you never ordered from my company.

Binky, on 12 May 2013 - 6:54 PM, said:

 and that those who say that its unfair should stop being so ungrateful.

 

EvilDragon, on 12 May 2013 - 8:12 PM, said:
You know, you're right that without preorders at Craigs shop, the Pandora wouldn't exist.

And you know what? I would be very happy about that.

Really makes you feel like its not appreciated that you put your money in to this project and made it possible that the Pandora even exists.

​Making it possible for all the new orders to get a Pandora in the first Place. 
It makes you feel like you were a burden - instead of being a part of what made this great project possible. 

OldJim, if you got a better working idea or know someone who wants to donate 150K EUR, then let me know.

Well i would guess that most people from the preorder that did leave there money in this project over all these years - did it because they believe in this project and still think its a great thing.
I believe that most of them would like to see themselves as a part of what made this project possible.   
For most of us i would think just giving us that recognition would be worth more then a fast delivery - heck we have been waiting for how long?  2Monts ;-) 

So just by signing the Pandora inside battery try/slot "Thanx for your preorder that made this Project possible - Evil Dragon" would probably do the trick here.
Showing that the preorder are appreciated.

We know that money is a problem

We know that the only way that we ever will get a Pandora is if we wait until the new orders pay for them - Just like the preorders did pay for the possibility that new orders can get there Pandora now.

But if the preordes would know that the would get something special in the end - most of them would be happy.

And the best part is you can make us happy with something that wont cost any extra money - just a sign of recognition and appreciation 

 

[xcen]

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