EvilDragon's Pre-Order Survey Thread

[OldJim]

"* A Rebirth (without any payment), though this might take a while"


What does "might take a while" mean?


Are we talking


Days


Weeks


Months


Years


????


And once again the rich get ro there goal faster - then the ones that had to scratch together every dime and only because the belive in this project did not ask for a refund

That's a totally understandable way of looking at it, but you could also look at it as: the rich are keeping money flowing into the project which is keeping it all alive (so us that don't have spare money still have a hope of getting our units).

Well I agree that's also a way of looking at things. I myself believe in "First in First out"

That People that order later have to pay more and whit that keep the money rolling in is OK.


​That People get the possibility to Upgrade, thats OK.

But delivering these new 1GHZ Units before all of the Original preorders are delivered - well that is just not right.


Have the people that order/upgrade now wait until the orginal que is cleared.

Why should the people that are already waiting so long  - have to wait even longer - while people with money can just get in front of them.


You can look at it like this. People that come later pay more and keep the money coming but they have to get in the que just like the others that have been waiting sooooo long and made this project possible in the first place. 

Why treat new orders and upgrates VIP.

Because they keep the Project rolling?

Well the original pre Orders made this Project even possible - so why not treat them VIP?

Well as I see it there should not be a VIP treatment just a que that fallows the simple rule "First in First out"

But now we are moving away from my actual Question:

"* A Rebirth (without any payment), though this might take a while"


What does "might take a while" mean?


Are we talking


Days


Weeks


Months


Years


????

Lets focus an this and get some real information on how long the people that actually made this project posible still have to wait - if they cant pay for a upgrade - not because they would not like to but because they just dont have the money - but believed in this project for so long and did not aks for a refound?

 

[EvilDragon]

"* A Rebirth (without any payment), though this might take a while"

What does "might take a while" mean?

Are we talking

Days

Weeks

Months

Years

????

Let me know how many Pandoras I'll sell in the next months and I'll let you know how long it takes.

As said a lot of times, old orders are funded using the profit of new sales.

The more sales, the faster the units will be delivered.

And once again the rich get ro there goal faster - then the ones that had to scratch together every dime and only because the belive in this project did not ask for a refund

Okay, let me get this straight:

You are aware, that based on my business plan, Craig would get about 250 more units funded from the profits from me, whereas he has more than 500 preorders.

That would mean: Without the generous guys who just offered to pay a bit more to get a 1GHz unit, not even half of the remaining ones (you might be included in them!) would probably not even get a unit.

Is that what you want?

Let's see how the upgrades work:

Let's assume I can sell 50 Pandoras in a month. That would be about 5000 EUR profit for old orders, which would be 18 more units.

Now we've got generous old preorders who would pay 200 EUR to get the 1GHz unit.

That would increase the amount of units we can ship from 18 to 71.

With 500 units left, it could be the full queue is being fullfilled in 5 - 7 months (depending on the amount of upgrades), whereas it could take A LOT longer if no one upgrades.

Unless you are at the very beginning of the queue, you would get your unit faster as well.

The queue shrinks a lot faster, less money is needed, more Pandoras can be funded alltogether.

Additionally, as more old preorderers get their unit, some of their friends, family, etc. might get interested and order another Pandoras, thus increasing the sales, which increases the profit.

If you think that's unfair, how about I stop doing all this?

I am not liable to you in any way, as you never ordered from my company.

Which means you and most other preorderers would most probably never see a Pandora nor any money ever.

Is that what you want?

Both Craig and me are trying to work together to solve this, and while we don't like the fact we have to do it like this, we can't do anything unless someone donates us about 150,000 EUR for the remaining preorders.

 

[EvilDragon]

But delivering these new 1GHZ Units before all of the Original preorders are delivered - well that is just not right.

The issue is: A lot less would upgrade for 200 EUR when they know they still have to wait.

Why should the people that are already waiting so long  - have to wait even longer - while people with money can just get in front of them.

As mentioned above:

Queue is handled faster -> Probably means also more sales -> Old customers will get their units faster as well.

You can look at it like this. People that come later pay more and keep the money coming but they have to get in the que just like the others that have been waiting sooooo long and made this project possible in the first place. 

Why treat new orders and upgrates VIP.

This is an upgrade offer for everyone who has been waiting for a long time.

So they ALL supported the project in the first place and have waited the same time.

Because they keep the Project rolling?

Well the original pre Orders made this Project even possible - so why not treat them VIP?

As said: These upgrades are ONLY for the original preorders.

Your point would be valid if you were talking about NEW sales.

Yes, we are selling new units, and without those, not a single original preorder would get ANY unit ever.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Do you have survey results numbers you can share with us ED?

 

[ShleeDragon]

whereas he has more than 500 preorders.

MORE THAN 500!!! You've spent 12 months cleaning your preorder queue and his preorder queue and he STILL has more than 500.

I'm having a hard time not calling Craig out on his planning and numbers considering all of his previous communication :S

 

[ShleeDragon]

If the Pandora costs 300euro to build and ship... You've got four groups. 270, 200, 150, 100. and I think it's safe to say the results are not that uniform but let's pretend

So lets say. each group has 100 people... that's 72,000euro that is coming your way. even with their money... ED needs to cover 48,000euro to pay for the 400 units.

also let's remind people - THIS IS MONEY ED IS GOING TO LOSE TO COVER CRAIG... $#$&! 

His original plan was to cover 250 more units from Craigs queue.. so let's assume that he wants to cover 250 more.

That's 54,500euro incoming and he needs to cover 20,500 to pay for the 100 (270),100 (200), 50 (150).

edit: ED feel free to update this with correct numbers 

 

[EvilDragon]

whereas he has more than 500 preorders.


MORE THAN 500!!! You've spent 12 months cleaning your preorder queue and his preorder queue and he STILL has more than 500.


I'm having a hard time not calling Craig out on his planning and numbers considering all of his previous communication :S

I know


It's about 400 units more than he SHOULD have left.


According to him, that's all because of so many returns who wanted a new unit or a refund.


But I don't understand why he should have 10 times more returns than me.


It's all a big mystery. Either the queue wasn't 800 when we started (but rather 1300) or.... I have no idea what that or might be.

 

[mcobit]

OMG, 500 are a lot.


So all those faulty units from returns have to exist...


How many did you get back from him?


Where are the others?

 

[ShleeDragon]

OMG, 500 are a lot.


So all those faulty units from returns have to exist...


How many did you get back from him?


Where are the others?

I hope he sent these parts to ED.

 

[elwing]

OMG, 500 are a lot.


So all those faulty units from returns have to exist...


How many did you get back from him?


Where are the others?

sorry, but there was mention of 800 or so including a hundread 1GHz edition at start of this year, did you really thought ED sent more than 200 classic pandora in the meantime???

I can't understand why everyone is surprised...

 

[dooble]

"* A Rebirth (without any payment), though this might take a while"


What does "might take a while" mean?


Are we talking


Days


Weeks


Months


Years


????


And once again the rich get ro there goal faster - then the ones that had to scratch together every dime and only because the belive in this project did not ask for a refund

That's a totally understandable way of looking at it, but you could also look at it as: the rich are keeping money flowing into the project which is keeping it all alive (so us that don't have spare money still have a hope of getting our units).

Well I agree that's also a way of looking at things. I myself believe in "First in First out"

That People that order later have to pay more and whit that keep the money rolling in is OK.


​That People get the possibility to Upgrade, thats OK.

But delivering these new 1GHZ Units before all of the Original preorders are delivered - well that is just not right.


Have the people that order/upgrade now wait until the orginal que is cleared.

Why should the people that are already waiting so long  - have to wait even longer - while people with money can just get in front of them.


You can look at it like this. People that come later pay more and keep the money coming but they have to get in the que just like the others that have been waiting sooooo long and made this project possible in the first place. 

Why treat new orders and upgrates VIP.

Because they keep the Project rolling?

Well the original pre Orders made this Project even possible - so why not treat them VIP?

Well as I see it there should not be a VIP treatment just a que that fallows the simple rule "First in First out"

But now we are moving away from my actual Question:

"* A Rebirth (without any payment), though this might take a while"


What does "might take a while" mean?


Are we talking


Days


Weeks


Months


Years


????

Lets focus an this and get some real information on how long the people that actually made this project posible still have to wait - if they cant pay for a upgrade - not because they would not like to but because they just dont have the money - but believed in this project for so long and did not aks for a refound?

This topic has been covered so many times on these boards.  I don't think the order of getting units is a rich/poor thing, but a method these guys are trying to make the cash flow work.

If this was a large company, they would likely run a FIFO process or the product line  would fail and people would avoid the companies products.

Some people may not have upgraded because they did not have the money to upgrade or did not want to allocate any more for that purpose.  Or in my case my son just grew beyond it.

I expect the early orders covered a lot of the NRE in the project and things that didn't work (CC, nubs, etc.), that doesn't mean they should be the ones to loose out.  I think this has be a frustrating experience for many of the customers (myself included).  The frustration I'm sure extends to both Ed and Craig.  I think Ed and even Craig are trying to make everyone as whole as reasonably possible.

The cash flow has to work for the process to succeed.  This is the reason that new money gets product faster.  Few would buy into putting up new money to wait several years for a unit.  The order chosen favors better cash flow up front so that more customers get satisfied earlier in the process.  I kind of expect I will be near the end of the line with my choice on the survey, but expect Ed and Craig will see this through.  FIFO is likely the fairest way to process orders, but would doom the project and most of the customers.

doob

 

[konqithedragon]

OMG, 500 are a lot.


So all those faulty units from returns have to exist...


How many did you get back from him?


Where are the others?

sorry, but there was mention of 800 or so including a hundread 1GHz edition at start of this year, did you really thought ED sent more than 200 classic pandora in the meantime???

I can't understand why everyone is surprised...

The 800 number was the total left in Craig's Queue when ED took over.. (If I understand correctly).

By Ed's count there should be 100 left in Craig's Queue.. meaning he has sent over 700 to Craig.

However there are over 500 units left in Craig's Queue... and I would not be surprised if another 100 would slowly come out of the woodwork eventually.

That means that either 400 of those 700 were returned for whatever reason or Craig lied about the number... or some how miscalculated.

 

[elwing]

By Ed's count there should be 100 left in Craig's Queue.. meaning he has sent over 700 to Craig.

then we did not heard the same things, it seems... ED just mentionned things like, this month, 12 1GHz unit and 3classic sent to craig... it's far from those 700...

the donation were also great (By the way many thanks to donators), but how many units were generated that way this year? 30? and some of them went to ED's preorder...

 

[konqithedragon]

whereas he has more than 500 preorders.


MORE THAN 500!!! You've spent 12 months cleaning your preorder queue and his preorder queue and he STILL has more than 500.


I'm having a hard time not calling Craig out on his planning and numbers considering all of his previous communication :S

I know

It's about 400 units more than he SHOULD have left.


According to him, that's all because of so many returns who wanted a new unit or a refund.


But I don't understand why he should have 10 times more returns than me.

It's all a big mystery. Either the queue wasn't 800 when we started (but rather 1300) or.... I have no idea what that or might be.

 

[Godmil]

I know it's confusing from that post, but from keeping a continuous eye on this project there is no way ED sent 700 units this year. The 400 ED mentioned I think he was meaning in the big picture, not just the last few months. 500 is around what I thought Craig had left (+150 1gigs which are now sent). It should not come as a surprise to anyone who's been following the numbers so please relax ED seems to have everything under control.

 

[Gruntfuggly]

I do not want to pay anything else. I want to get it as fast as possible though, so I'm fine getting the original 256MB spec Pandora
(what you originally ordered) - in the new case, with new LCD cable + other new fixes. (we have limited stock of these, but can ship them quickly.)

Was this the Rebirth or the CC?

I was swayed by the "but can ship them quickly" - what exactly did this mean then? 

 

[andmaz777]

People seem to be getting confused, annoyed and upset about having to pay more and new customers getting units immediately.


The reasons for all this are in multiple forums posts and for those of us that have followed all this then yes it's not great but we all understand albeit some do still find it hard to accept the current state of play but its unavoidable now.


If the project had just gone in receivership then no one left would have got anything (a lot of customers) - there maybe should have been a massive announcement that that was basically that - a subsequent rescue plan would then have been seen in a different light.


ED has no obligation legally to do anything for Craig's customers and if we are not careful stupid forum comments could derail the rescue plan which is the last chance for everyone to get a unit!

 

[OldJim]

If you think that's unfair, how about I stop doing all this?


I am not liable to you in any way, as you never ordered from my company.

This is a bad joke right?

Is everybody forgething that there would not be a pandora if not for the orginal preorders?

The Orginal preordes made this projekt even posible. if not for these people nobody would have a pandora not from Craig and not from ED.

The Orginal preoder People waited for years now. Is it to much to ask for that the new ordes also get in que and wait some? lets say 2 Monts? And use the money from the new orders to first cear the old que?

Well if the new orders get rewarded of geting the Pandora fast:

Whats the reward for the people that made this projekt posible in the first place? Will they get some signe that there paicients is apriciated? Like for example get there Pandora singed inside the batery slot?


I think that would be a nice way of showing that this project would not exist whitout the preordes and that there loyalty is apriciated.


Much better then to get a bad joke answer saying that ED is not liable for the preordes that made this posible in the first place

  apprciated

 

[Binky]

If you think that's unfair, how about I stop doing all this?
I am not liable to you in any way, as you never ordered from my company.

This is a bad joke right?

I think ED's trying to say that the system of getting additional payments for early delivery and using them to fulfil orders from people who don't want to pay extra is the best possible approach for the old preorders, and that those who say that its unfair should stop being so ungrateful.

The alternative (Not sending pandoras to people who ordered from Craig (whose responsibility it is to ship them)) is much worse for the people complaining.

 

[WizardStan]

This is a bad joke right?

No, it's not a joke, he is quite serious: EvilDragon runs a completely different company from Craig and is under absolutely no legal obligation to send you a Pandora. He is only responsible for the people that bought from his store. He could say "people that pre-ordered from Craig will have to deal with him, I am only selling new Pandora's now" and be completely in the clear.People paying now are not "jumping the queue". People who purchase a Pandora right now are purchasing from EvilDragon who has no queue at all. Occasionally ED gains enough profit from his sales that he can fund the manufacture of a few extra. A normal company would use those extra to increase sales. Instead, ED is sending them to Craig's company, basically free of charge, because he wants to help clear up the mess that Craig has found himself in.

Well if the new orders get rewarded of geting the Pandora fast:

They aren't being "rewarded", they're just getting what they paid for. EvilDragon's queue is clear, they got what they paid for. What you're proposing would be like asking Walmart to stop selling something because Target ran out of stock and won't be getting any for a few months, or telling Walmart they have to send some of their stock to Target. Just doesn't happen like that. In this analogy, Walmart (EvilDragon) does feel bad for people that can only shop at Target (Craigix) and occasionally sends some product at cost, but expecting Walmart to take the full hit for Target's inability to plan, and asking Walmart customers to suffer as a result is just rude.