Action button labels, again


comradekingu

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⎀ is iso insert.

means tab

is leftward tab

unicode  page up

  unicode page down

⌫    U+232B    Delete / Backspace
␡    U+2421    Alternative DEL
⌦    U+2326    Forward delete

is nothing

is function, finite finite function
 
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Kev2442

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42 (Loire) is the answer.
I could see something like this :

+     Y

    P    R

_     A

Or maybe just go with numbers.

Apart from that, I like the plus-minus better, ans I'm tied between a Unicode or arrow-like design.

If we take the BAXY layout, Microsoft couldn't sue us as they borrowed it from the Dreamcast. :D

Please note that we shouldn't use any symbols that aren't either already writable with a keyboard (like latin alphabet) or ASCII art doable, as some software and forum may not support Unicode or ISO.
 

Binky

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Aesthetics aside,

How about coloured buttons? 

    

   ●          

●    ●
Its easy to unambiguously refer to them either by description or by using the same colour.

People are good at associating ideas with colours.

Doesn't require new, or unusual symbols.

Doesn't require a team of lawyers to defend 

Easier to see than written labels
 

_wb_

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Aesthetics aside,

How about coloured buttons? 

    

   ●          

●    ●
Its easy to unambiguously refer to them either by description or by using the same colour.

People are good at associating ideas with colours.

Doesn't require new, or unusual symbols.

Doesn't require a team of lawyers to defend 

Easier to see than written labels
Yes, it has some advantages. However, also:

  • Action buttons are probably part of the keymat, which is printed in two colors (white and the color of Fn/Meta), adding extra colors just for the action buttons would make it a lot more expensive
  • Colors don't refer to the keyboard function of those buttons (Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Ins/Del)
  • Colors do not have a direction, so you have to remember which color is where, or look at the buttons, instead of knowing where the button is just by seeing the symbol
 

Neelix

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Colors do not have a direction, so you have to remember which color is where, or look at the buttons, instead of knowing where the button is just by seeing the symbol
I honestly don't think directional indicators on the action buttons are necessary.  A good guihint image will give both name and positional information as Christoph.krn has demonstrated.  For any other purposes it's only needed to specify *which* key needs to be pressed,  not where it is, otherwise the whole exercise of labelling keyboard keys with letters and punctuation symbols is pretty pointless. :)

- Neelix
 

kuru

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I see how important it is for a few vocal guys to have the button label resemble keyboard function. I am not saying that it doesn't make any sense. Ofc it's nice to know. OTOH I think this is a bit condescending towards gamers out there, whose brains have been matching buttons' locations in muscle memory to their ingame actions for decades. And I don't think ppl younger than me will have more problems, quite the contrary...

So riddle me this:

Is it acceptable to make newbies read about L and R keyboard functions* or just find out about those by doing the plain, old press-and-see-what-it-does?

If not, please don't exclude those buttons' labels from the discussion and cover the whole controller aspect. I'm looking at my XBONE controller here and its' RT, RB, LT, LB labels.

If yes, why no persistency and apply the same mentality to the front buttons?

*via first start booklet or first setup screen, maybe even a preinstalled background image detailling the controls
 
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_wb_

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I see how important it is for a few vocal guys to have the button label resemble keyboard function. I am not saying that it doesn't make any sense. Ofc it's nice to know. OTOH I think this is a bit condescending towards gamers out there, whose brains have been matching buttons' locations in muscle memory to their ingame actions for decades. And I don't think ppl younger than me will have more problems, quite the contrary...

So riddle me this:

Is it acceptable to make newbies read about L and R keyboard functions* or just find out about those by doing the plain, old press-and-see-what-it-does?

If not, please don't exclude those buttons' labels from the discussion and cover the whole controller aspect. I'm looking at my XBONE controller here and its' RT, RB, LT, LB labels.

If yes, why no persistency and apply the same mentality to the front buttons?

*via first start booklet or first setup screen, maybe even a preinstalled background image detailling the controls
"press-and-see-what-it-does" is not a nice way to figure out what modifier keys do, since they don't do anything by themselves, so the most likely thing to happen is that the user thinks "meh, it does nothing, it's only for gaming".
So yes, I think the shoulder buttons should be labeled with their keyboard function too.

As you say, gamers play with muscle memory, so for gaming, the labels don't really matter at all.

For keyboard users, having to remember 10 unhelpfully labeled keys (4 shoulders and 6 action buttons) is not very nice, and it would be worse than on the Pandora, which has 6 of those (L1 R1 ABXY).
 

kuru

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So it is not acceptable to make newbies read about keyboard functions via first start booklet or first setup screen, maybe even a preinstalled background image detailling the controls?
 
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_wb_

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So it is not acceptable to make newbies read about keyboard functions via first start booklet or first setup screen, maybe even a preinstalled background image detailling the controls?
That is better than nothing, but worse than having the buttons properly labeled.

Would you like to have a keyboard on your computer where Ctrl, Alt, Shift and one more are blank keys, and so is the Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block? But you get a booklet and a wallpaper!
 

Rockthesmurf

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Code:
var kMyChoice = "WeirdSymbols";

def PollSuccessful:
   if GetHighestVotedOption( ) == kMyChoice:
      return True
   else:
      return False

def IssueNewPoll:
   ResetAllVotes( )
   AskSameQuestionsAgain( )

while not PollSuccessful( ):
   IssueNewPoll( );

print "Finally, everyone now agrees that " + kMyChoice + " was the best idea all along"
 

kuru

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So it is not acceptable to make newbies read about keyboard functions via first start booklet or first setup screen, maybe even a preinstalled background image detailling the controls?
That is better than nothing, but worse than having the buttons properly labeled.


Would you like to have a keyboard on your computer where Ctrl, Alt, Shift and one more are blank keys, and so is the Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block? But you get a booklet and a wallpaper!
I'm not talking about having blanks, but easily typed and spoken letters. The symbols make ppl look up ASCII codes unless they want to call the buttons the "up-arrow" or "upper big button".

You're not labelling the buttons as clearly as on a keyboard. My keyboard says POS1, END, PgUp, PgDn. And I've never even seen the capital I and forward delete ones. <-- See? I'm already doing it.

Just make it easy to reference the buttons.
 
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Haraldur

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I am in favour of either PYRA for the action buttons (as it would be cool, good for branding, etc.) or the PgUP, PgDown etc. system -- probably more for the latter, as how else is one to remember the non-game functions of the action buttons?

I am NOT in favour of any (exclusive) reliance upon colour for differentiating buttons, as I have colour vision problems. By all means use colour in addition, but, please, not exclusively.
 

Mr_Loon

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How about labelling the main 4 buttons NSEW as per the points of a compass, the other two could be labelled NW & SW.

Why? Because most (English speaking) people know where NSEW are on a compass, i.e. usability. This should be the prime concern when considering how to label action buttons IMHO. i.e if the game says press the N button to dodge then people will know to press the top button.

Also it's an original solution that would make Pyra a little different than the 'norm' of  ABXY.

No biggy though, pretty sure we'll get used to whatever is chosen.

What I'd really like to see though is described at the end of this post.
 
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comradekingu

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You write NSEW, I read NSFW.

Insert Delete Home end Page Up Page Down may be the correct name, but it has some way to go before it gets any use from regular users. Pos1 like german keyboards may be a little better than Home. It has more regional differences too, so typing it out is not an ideal idea.

I think something that looks non-scary has a lot better chance, in the sense that you could learn it by stumbling upon it. The diamond-cluster already lends itself to the functional division between them.

I think we settled on modal switches for everything thats on seperate gpio, the L/R and the buttoncluster. All in the hypotetical world.

In the real world you can design for a many different assumptions, but the process is stranded on the need for more information. We dont know if the buttoncluster-buttons are different than the keymat. How costly the colours are, don't know.

How about a vote with first second third choice?
 
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ZXDunny

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Unicode buttons! Fuck me, I bet Microsoft, Nintendo, Sega et al are all just kicking themselves that they didn't think of using symbols that aside from being nigh-on impossible to type, will end up so small that they'll be indistinguishable from eachother when they're printed on a button.

What a missed opportunity! Best get ED to jump on this one straight away before some know-nothing corporate designer (with 20 years experience and multiple qualifications in usability etc) tries to steal it for the next AAA Console!

Fucking hell, I've seen it all now.

D.
 
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