Action button labels: poll 3 (final poll?)

[_wb_]

The reason why Sony had a great idea with the PS1 pad is that they used very simple, UNIVERSAL symbols. A round is a round in every culture, a cross is a cross in every culture, and so on. These are geometric standards. Greek letters are not universal. Elements and elements representations are not universal. 

Yes, and for that reason (even though I dislike Sony like I dislike any big company), I like the PlayStation layout quite a lot: it is original and elegant. Just copying it is probably not an option though.

While it's true that many people do not know the Greek alphabet, I think the Greek letters Π Ω Δ χ are not problematic because they are so much like those universal geometric symbols -- the only difference being that Π Ω are not a square and a circle but an "open square" and an "open circle", with the opening at the bottom. Using Π Ω Δ χ basically gives us the PlayStation layout without risking a lawsuit, and the Greek theme fits well with the device name.

Also the 4 elements are pretty universal in all cultures: through the Greek they are known all over Europe (Aristotle was quite influential in medieval Europe), and the Egyptians, Chinese, Japanese, Hindus and Buddhists also have them. Earth-Water-Air-Fire correspond to the four states of matter (solid-liquid-gas-plasma) which is something universal enough for me. In terms of cultural universality, the 4 elements are arguably more universal than the Latin alphabet.

 

[_wb_]

OK, here is one more labeling proposal:

Larger image here: http://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~jon.sneyers/tmp/action_buttons2.png

ED has confirmed on IRC that the physical position of the buttons will be as shown above, so please don't complain about that.

Spoiler

10:14 < _wb_> EvilDragon: also, would this 6-button layout be feasible? (see below)
10:14 < _wb_> Z Y
10:15 < _wb_> A B
10:15 < _wb_> X C
12:16 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Nope, you'd most likely hit C accidentally when pressing X and B at the same time.
14:27 < _wb_> so are the extra keys going to be same size or smaller?
14:28 <@EvilDragon> Smaller.
14:28 < _wb_> staggered or directly above/below A ?
14:56 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Yep, directly above / below A.

Also it is unlikely that there will be color on the action button labels, but the buttons may be backlit like the keyboard so that could be pretty cool.

So what's the rationale for the above labeling proposal?

The main button labels are Greek letters (Delta - Pi - Omega - Chi) which look like the PlayStation action buttons (Triangle - Square - Circle - Cross). The two new buttons are Lambda and Phi -- other letters could be used instead, I just picked those because Lambda is a nice letter (it's also the symbol of HalfLife, the game) which looks a bit like it is trying to "Insert" itself between other letters, and Phi reminds me of the empty set symbol (which seems somewhat appropriate for Delete).

The small triangles are alchemical symbols for earth - water - air - fire, where air/earth represent home/end and fire/water represent PgUp/PgDn. Also, the symbol for air kind of looks a bit like an A and if you apply some imagination, the symbol for earth looks a bit like a B. So these symbols also serve as a kind of backwards compatibility with the Pandora labels.

For Insert and Delete, I used the symbols Caine came up with some time ago: ⌦ for delete and ⎆ for insert. Assuming those are going to be their functions.

 

[deadofmind]

OK, here is one more labeling proposal:

Larger image here: http://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~jon.sneyers/tmp/action_buttons2.png

ED has confirmed on IRC that the physical position of the buttons will be as shown above, so please don't complain about that.

Spoiler

10:14 < _wb_> EvilDragon: also, would this 6-button layout be feasible? (see below)
10:14 < _wb_> Z Y
10:15 < _wb_> A B
10:15 < _wb_> X C
12:16 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Nope, you'd most likely hit C accidentally when pressing X and B at the same time.
14:27 < _wb_> so are the extra keys going to be same size or smaller?
14:28 <@EvilDragon> Smaller.
14:28 < _wb_> staggered or directly above/below A ?
14:56 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Yep, directly above / below A.

Spoiler

Also it is unlikely that there will be color on the action button labels, but the buttons may be backlit like the keyboard so that could be pretty cool.

So what's the rationale for the above labeling proposal?

The main button labels are Greek letters (Delta - Pi - Omega - Chi) which look like the PlayStation action buttons (Triangle - Square - Circle - Cross). The two new buttons are Lambda and Phi -- other letters could be used instead, I just picked those because Lambda is a nice letter (it's also the symbol of HalfLife, the game) which looks a bit like it is trying to "Insert" itself between other letters, and Phi reminds me of the empty set symbol (which seems somewhat appropriate for Delete).

The small triangles are alchemical symbols for earth - water - air - fire, where air/earth represent home/end and fire/water represent PgUp/PgDn. Also, the symbol for air kind of looks a bit like an A and if you apply some imagination, the symbol for earth looks a bit like a B. So these symbols also serve as a kind of backwards compatibility with the Pandora labels.

For Insert and Delete, I used the symbols Caine came up with some time ago: ⌦ for delete and ⎆ for insert. Assuming those are going to be their functions.

I really like that layout,  10/10 would vote for! It's alot less cluttered than the pictobuttons on the last couple pages were. I really wish people were more open to new and different designs, the old A B X Y configurations may be more hard for others to get used to when playing games on emulators.

Plus I really like the idea of being able to advertise that the Pyra has revolutionary 4 shoulder triggers AND 6 face buttons, while not being the same old letters like the last 7 generations. It would make for a very unique product.

Also, we might be able to get conspiracy theorists to make articles about the pyra, since the Delta + the fire symbol look similar to the all seeing eye/ Illuminati symbol.

*Meanwhile, ED sees this post - "Shut it down, they know!" * and that's how the pyra got canceled..

 

[levi]

The normal symbol for Home and End are like the media player skip chapter icons, I'd assume - a triangle with a line resting on the point (kind of like >| and |<). I can't remember what icons I've seen for page up and down.


Edit: Oh I see, you're not trying to refer to those purposes, but to infer the alchemical elements. Ok then, though I just hope those symbols are more familiar to other cultures than they are to mine. Without reading that wikipedia page I'd not idea even what they were, but perhaps that's not a problem.

 

[milkshake]

I thought we stopped pushing greek symbols?

 

[Kiga]

ED has confirmed on IRC that the physical position of the buttons will be as shown above, so please don't complain about that.

That looks so cool, how can people be so attached to their ABXY? Action button need to contrast with others buttons.

14:56 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Yep, directly above / below A.

If they are directly above/below A, it will look even more like random keyboards buttons.

Did you ask ED about Greek letters?

 

[Ziz]

Did you ask ED about Greek letters?

I did. You may remember.http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15869-action-button-labels-poll-2-bis/?p=323440

But just for you a reduced quote of the quote of the quote:

[16:54:45 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> EvilDragon: Would you really print greek letters on the symbols if a community poll would have a majority? ^^
[16:59:05 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Ziz, Nope - did I ever say that?
Nope.Nope!

Nope!!!

 

[Kiga]

Are you trolling?

As you know:

[17:01:44 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> They were loooong discussions about this, EvilDragon. With Pros and Cons and much ignoring of arguments.
[17:01:56 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Yeah, didn't follow them at all

 

[_wb_]

I thought we stopped pushing greek symbols?

You stopped pushing them a long, long time ago

 

[milkshake]

I never pushed greek buttons *buddum cha*

 

[levi]

Only just over half the voters in this poll even found Greek lettering acceptable, and almost two thirds of the people would prefer Latin buttons.


I don't have anything against _wb_ making Greek designs, and I did personally vote for them, but still I'd like to see more Latin designs to meet the voters' desires.

 

[Ziz]

Are you trolling?


As you know:

[17:01:44 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> They were loooong discussions about this, EvilDragon. With Pros and Cons and much ignoring of arguments.


[17:01:56 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Yeah, didn't follow them at all

Yeah and constantly repeating how AWESOME the greek layout is and so increasing the total amount of posts for these topics without any new argument will surely let ED read these discussions!


Furthermore just because he didn't follow all, doesn't mean, he did follow none.


And at last: Even if Evildragon doesn't have the time to read these really long discussion, most board users have the time (they don't need to plan a fucking open handheld in their spare time. Except maybe skeezix and his zikzak XD) and they decided. Why can't you just accept the poll results?

 

[Ziz]

Only just over half the voters in this poll even found Greek lettering acceptable, and almost two thirds of the people would prefer Latin buttons.

I don't have anything against _wb_ making Greek designs, and I did personally vote for them, but still I'd like to see more Latin designs to meet the voters' desires.

I think for a latin design you just don't need a picture to show, how it would look. A latin design e.g. doesn't need button names or different fonts to make it look more like some simple shapes.

 

[_wb_]

Only just over half the voters in this poll even found Greek lettering acceptable, and almost two thirds of the people would prefer Latin buttons.


I don't have anything against _wb_ making Greek designs, and I did personally vote for them, but still I'd like to see more Latin designs to meet the voters' desires.

True, but you could also say that a majority thinks Greek is acceptable and over 1/3rd prefers something different from Latin.

Anyway, I would also like to see more and better Latin designs. I don't even like Latin letters myself and I proposed Latin designs.

It has been proposed before, but why not have multi-letter labels on each button? For example like this:

FOO    PY

RA               DB

BAR   TUX

It's backwards compatible because the last letter is the Pandora label. But we can make it make sense now: the big buttons say PYRA, DB (DragonBox) and Tux, and the small ones say foo and bar or whatever.

OK, I admit it, this is silly. It still makes more sense though than

Z   Y

A        B

C   X

Maybe don't give the new buttons a game button label?

Ins    Y

  A           B

Del    X

Still, I don't like to have two letters that occur on two different buttons/keys. Maybe we should do what mathematicians do when they're overloading letters?

   Y'

A'   B'

   X'

 

[Kiga]

Yeah and constantly repeating how AWESOME the greek layout is and so increasing the total amount of posts for these topics without any new argument will surely let ED read these discussions!
Furthermore just because he didn't follow all, doesn't mean, he did follow none.


And at last: Even if Evildragon doesn't have the time to read these really long discussion, most board users have the time (they don't need to plan a fucking open handheld in their spare time. Except maybe skeezix and his zikzak XD) and they decided. Why can't you just accept the poll results?

You just can't argument with me, all you can do is repeat the same arguments till you haven't anything to say, so you return to the begin again and again. You are a liar because we have exactly the same amount of post (before this post).

And I don't really care about the poll results, because I already knew that it would be about that result because majority of people want to keep things as they are untill there is an absolute necessity to change. That's why someone who isn't upset by change is needed to lead something.

There is about the half of people which are in favor of greek letters, also a lot of people didn't even understood what's the matter (much because of anti-greeks who always deviate the debate), it is enough to change if ED want it. My hope from the outset is that ED would take the decision.

 

[_jr_]

I can't draw. Otherwise I'd propose A/B/X/Y within triangular shapes similar to the alchemy element symbols used in _wb_'s proposal. Not because they are used in alchemy for the elements, but because they are pretty good at indicating the default keyboard binding. This has no backwards compatibility problems and while it doesn't do much in terms of clearing up the ambiguity and dullness of A/B/X/Y it at least provides an evolutionary pathway that allows us to replace A/B/X/Y at a later time if desired. The two extra keys can have Ins/Del labels or P1/P2 or a nice pair of graphical symbols sun/moon, cloud/lightning, as long as it isn't just single latin letters.

 

[levi]

You could name the extra buttons after their relative location - AY and AX.

 

[Tenka]

10:14 < _wb_> EvilDragon: also, would this 6-button layout be feasible? (see below)
10:14 < _wb_> Z Y
10:15 < _wb_> A B
10:15 < _wb_> X C
12:16 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Nope, you'd most likely hit C accidentally when pressing X and B at the same time.
14:27 < _wb_> so are the extra keys going to be same size or smaller?
14:28 <@EvilDragon> Smaller.
14:28 < _wb_> staggered or directly above/below A ?
14:56 <@EvilDragon> _wb_, Yep, directly above / below A.

Of course C would get in the way while pressing X and B.  Why did you ask him about

Z Y

A    B

   X C

rather than

   Y Z

A    B

C X

which follows the side to side area our thumbs can reach with the least amount of hopping?  The new buttons still aren't in the way of the old ones and do not require any more space.

 

[Natsu]

I like the del. Not sure about Ins. I don't use that much. It works tho. Maybe another space or enter key? Could also be P and D or + and - or just 1 and 2.

The letters/symbols themselves can do well with colors. PlayStation and Ouya pulled it off.
 

You could name the extra buttons after their relative location - AY and AX.

That can work too.
 

Of course C would get in the way while pressing X and B.  Why did you ask him about
Z Y
A    B
   X C
rather than
   Y Z
A    B
C X
which follows the side to side area our thumbs can reach with the least amount of hopping?  The new buttons still aren't in the way of the old ones and do not require any more space.

Z is on the side that a hole is at. It's impossible.
Because A and X wouldn't get in the way of C? B couldn't be in the way of A and X?

We could also do this.
 
Z Y
A C B
   X

 

[Tenka]

There is to be a hole to the right of Y?  As in a screw?  If so that sucks, but I know little enough about the screw placement to hope that could be tweaked.

A button can't be placed between the other four, because it prevents thumb rocking presses, and that placement requires just as much button hopping.  Our right thumbs come from the south east.