iprice
Certified Guru
That'll take another poll (or two), a 603 page thread and still not end with a final decision that everyone is happy with. And it certainly won't move swiftly!
Action button labels, again
- Thread starter _wb_
- Start date
You mean this poll about confusion where 37.5% of the people were worried about the potential confusion of using letters? Do you feel no need to take them into account?
Or are you talking about this poll where 28% of the people explicitly indicated that Latin letters are unacceptable to them, and where the most popular choice (41%) was ΔΠΩχ Φψ, closely followed by ABYXCZ (38%)?
Or are you talking about this poll, where amongst many other things, you could select
"The functions are not shown on the label (like it is on the Pandora, you just have to know that A=Home etc.)"
or
"The functions are shown on the label in some way (either as small text or icon added to the main label, or by having a label that is only the function)"
and both EvilDragon and Steven Craft voted for the latter?
OK then, you're right, we have already discussed this enough detail, let's just respect those votes and go for ΔΠΩχ Φψ with additional small-text labels "Home", "End", "PgUp", "PgDn", "Ins", "Del"
Seriously though, why would you want to label the extra action buttons with "Continue" and "Home" ? Isn't that confusing for buttons that actually correspond to Insert and Delete? Or do you want to give them some other mapping?
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SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
Worried about, and actually being confused, is a distinct difference.
The symbols themselves aren't bad, and could literally be any symbol and people can identify with them as there are only 6 to memorize. The problem with the Greek symbols specifically though is when you go and identify them by the actual name as I said once upon a time.
To think the confusion created in having a A key, and an A button as being MORE confusing than telling someone to press Psi without a visual reference is loony. I'm not worried about people being confused, I would actually be confused and would require a pocket reference.
The symbols themselves aren't bad, and could literally be any symbol and people can identify with them as there are only 6 to memorize. The problem with the Greek symbols specifically though is when you go and identify them by the actual name as I said once upon a time.
To think the confusion created in having a A key, and an A button as being MORE confusing than telling someone to press Psi without a visual reference is loony. I'm not worried about people being confused, I would actually be confused and would require a pocket reference.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Except when the A button is the B button, or X. Therein lies the problem. Direction is cognitively easier to remember because it relates to position in the diamond pattern. The bonus is it can be used as a mnemonic for 87-key symbols too.
SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
Fine, use anything else, just pick something people won't have to look up on the Internet to figure out what button your talking about.
Edit:
Press the duck button
Vs
Press the lamba... You know, the one that almost looks like a triangle
Edit 2
Didn't realize I'm thinking of delta not lambda which I not only misspelled but was completely wrong about. But didn't realize until I again looked it up.
Edit:
Press the duck button
Vs
Press the lamba... You know, the one that almost looks like a triangle
Edit 2
Didn't realize I'm thinking of delta not lambda which I not only misspelled but was completely wrong about. But didn't realize until I again looked it up.
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Rockthesmurf
Advanced Member
Ok, well my vote is for all the buttons to have a picture of a three legged lizzard and all other options are unacceptable to me.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Imagine you are playing rockband, or the one where the arrows come towards you.
↓ ⇤ ⇞↑ ↓ ⇤ ⇞↑ ↓ vs ↓ < ^ ↑ ↓ < ^ ↑ ↓
The latter is easier to decipher visually, its less complex, and easier to write.
Now worst case a Letter relates to a direction, if you learn that, you know where the button is, whereas before, you learnt a system. Many people still hold onto their system, be it sega or nintendo, but they are mutually exclusive. That only works for sega or nintendo. For pandora its detrimental. Likewise for pyra.
^ ^
(Y) (X)
< (X) (A) > <(Y) ( B) >
( B) (A)
v v
Is a lot better than any of these half the time:
X Y
(Y) (X)
Y (X) (A) B X (Y) ( B) A
( B) (A)
A B
Or for the gp2x layout almost all of the time:
Y Y
(Y) (X)
A (X) (A) B A (Y) ( B) B
( B) (A)
X X
↓ ⇤ ⇞↑ ↓ ⇤ ⇞↑ ↓ vs ↓ < ^ ↑ ↓ < ^ ↑ ↓
The latter is easier to decipher visually, its less complex, and easier to write.
Now worst case a Letter relates to a direction, if you learn that, you know where the button is, whereas before, you learnt a system. Many people still hold onto their system, be it sega or nintendo, but they are mutually exclusive. That only works for sega or nintendo. For pandora its detrimental. Likewise for pyra.
^ ^
(Y) (X)
< (X) (A) > <(Y) ( B) >
( B) (A)
v v
Is a lot better than any of these half the time:
X Y
(Y) (X)
Y (X) (A) B X (Y) ( B) A
( B) (A)
A B
Or for the gp2x layout almost all of the time:
Y Y
(Y) (X)
A (X) (A) B A (Y) ( B) B
( B) (A)
X X
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kuru
Who the heck is Stephan Kramer?
Non-roman is a no-go for me. No need to reinvent the wheel or turn this into a doctoral research study.
Make the 4 standard buttons ABCD and the smaller ones X and Y. From left to right, vertical direction IDC.
Good software offers rebindable keys, the rest is up to you.
Make the 4 standard buttons ABCD and the smaller ones X and Y. From left to right, vertical direction IDC.
Good software offers rebindable keys, the rest is up to you.
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
Why? Why is that so important? Do you avoid PS controllers like the plague because they don't have Latin letters?
- Neelix
comradekingu
Glowing ember
You are refusing to look at the evidence why the current layout is universally disliked by newcomers. ABCD is for the same reason only a bit worse than ABXY.
ABCD would be reinventing the wheel as a square, its not full triangle, but pretty bad nontheless. We have already studied and researched, all you have to do is look into the lowdown on how it works.
The software-side is beside the point. ABCD isn't compatible with direction, its activity incompatible with current systems, and gives no clue as to what the function of the 87-keys are.
Something thats activly confusing is worse than something thats just arbitrary, like OUYA.
They made the order YAXB, or 4132 BXYA from gp2x is 2341 when every other system is ABXY 1234 (nintendo) or BAYX 2143 (sega) ( > v ^ < or v > < ^ )
Which one is 1 has to do with what is the primary button on the controller, sometimes the most reachable button is v, sometimes its >
Even the argument of optimizing for comfort, It just doesn't make sense to have a system that is supposed to do all of them have < as primary when its always > or v.
Furthermore, with A at <, the aspect of having B at > means the pairs AB and XY are broken, and along with it, the argument of optimizing for comfort.
With <^v> aligned with direction, you can do whatever you want. Your connotation is yours. Same for PS-layout. I can go into finer detail, but that is the one that gets my vote.
ABCD would be reinventing the wheel as a square, its not full triangle, but pretty bad nontheless. We have already studied and researched, all you have to do is look into the lowdown on how it works.
The software-side is beside the point. ABCD isn't compatible with direction, its activity incompatible with current systems, and gives no clue as to what the function of the 87-keys are.
Something thats activly confusing is worse than something thats just arbitrary, like OUYA.
They made the order YAXB, or 4132 BXYA from gp2x is 2341 when every other system is ABXY 1234 (nintendo) or BAYX 2143 (sega) ( > v ^ < or v > < ^ )
Which one is 1 has to do with what is the primary button on the controller, sometimes the most reachable button is v, sometimes its >
Even the argument of optimizing for comfort, It just doesn't make sense to have a system that is supposed to do all of them have < as primary when its always > or v.
Furthermore, with A at <, the aspect of having B at > means the pairs AB and XY are broken, and along with it, the argument of optimizing for comfort.
With <^v> aligned with direction, you can do whatever you want. Your connotation is yours. Same for PS-layout. I can go into finer detail, but that is the one that gets my vote.
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ekianjo
Hardcore Member
That is actually a pretty good idea.
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
@comradekingu: Making the action buttons conceptually identical to the DPad would be a bad idea. Putting any kind of arrows on them that don't have a specific meaning of their own other than up down, left, right is only going to lead to confusion, no matter how you stylise them.
If you really feel that a directional approach is the only way to go, I'd suggest going with compass directions instead.
- Neelix
If you really feel that a directional approach is the only way to go, I'd suggest going with compass directions instead.
Code:
NW Nth
Wst Est
SW Sth
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Its more different, and a better idea than making it actually identical to primary buttons on the keyboard. While not confusing to matters ABXY, three letters wont fit on the buttoncluster buttons. And two wont fit on the smaller ones.
ABXY has no specific meaning to a button anymore, but < is the < button. ^ is the ^ button and so on.
You cant do the same thing With A. A can be any of two > or v, or even a third button <. When you want to do all systems, ABXY in any orientation is a mess.
Its like housenumbers, odd numbers one side, even numbers the other. The second doing 3 and 3 or something else gains traction, the system stops working.
Adding two extra buttons to it, and it really shows. Nintendo now sits on a whole legacy of incompatible layouts.
Where confusion with N S W E is introduced, is with having a system that doesn't signify home end pageup and pagedown. A bit lesser known E, East is on par with R right, both of which are slower to grasp than >. For shoulders L and R is a good idea, because there its an universial standard.
Direction is cognitively quicker to grasp, and what you are essentially doing otherwise, is applying it to direction, because its a diamond pattern.
When its learnt, you apply it to muscle memory. Getting there is easier with <^v>
Natively its a lot better, especially when the game directs you to do something complex where you need to decipher many of them. Elsewise it just needs the conditioning you apply anyhow, it just works better for what is otherwise actively confusing. When A actually is A, and the user expects A there, the benefit isn't gained by looking at the controller, so its irrelevant.
I have used all the systems since i was able to. A combo of A B X Y, in any arrangement, when i know the interpretetation, still takes me longer with any of them to decipher than < v ^ >.
Gamepark made the BXYA layout, I think they dropped it for their planned successor.
Gamepark holdings ironically made the wiz have a second Dpad instead of a buttoncluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X_Wiz
Still with BXYA layout.
Then they went with diamond-buttoncluster BXYA on the CAANOO, and are now out of the business. BXYA software is limited, and for the most part not hardcoded. With the pandora effectivly EOL for sales, BXYA is dead.
ABXY has no specific meaning to a button anymore, but < is the < button. ^ is the ^ button and so on.
You cant do the same thing With A. A can be any of two > or v, or even a third button <. When you want to do all systems, ABXY in any orientation is a mess.
Its like housenumbers, odd numbers one side, even numbers the other. The second doing 3 and 3 or something else gains traction, the system stops working.
Adding two extra buttons to it, and it really shows. Nintendo now sits on a whole legacy of incompatible layouts.
Where confusion with N S W E is introduced, is with having a system that doesn't signify home end pageup and pagedown. A bit lesser known E, East is on par with R right, both of which are slower to grasp than >. For shoulders L and R is a good idea, because there its an universial standard.
Direction is cognitively quicker to grasp, and what you are essentially doing otherwise, is applying it to direction, because its a diamond pattern.
When its learnt, you apply it to muscle memory. Getting there is easier with <^v>
Natively its a lot better, especially when the game directs you to do something complex where you need to decipher many of them. Elsewise it just needs the conditioning you apply anyhow, it just works better for what is otherwise actively confusing. When A actually is A, and the user expects A there, the benefit isn't gained by looking at the controller, so its irrelevant.
I have used all the systems since i was able to. A combo of A B X Y, in any arrangement, when i know the interpretetation, still takes me longer with any of them to decipher than < v ^ >.
Gamepark made the BXYA layout, I think they dropped it for their planned successor.
Gamepark holdings ironically made the wiz have a second Dpad instead of a buttoncluster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X_Wiz
Still with BXYA layout.
Then they went with diamond-buttoncluster BXYA on the CAANOO, and are now out of the business. BXYA software is limited, and for the most part not hardcoded. With the pandora effectivly EOL for sales, BXYA is dead.
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kuru
Who the heck is Stephan Kramer?
Roman lettering because those are easily typed and have always been there. KISS!
SONY's stuff is kind of okay since X O [] /\ works.
We also shouldn't try to make up for the non-standards nonsense NinSega has brewed up over the years. You can't account for what people are used to unless you just blatantly copy one that exists, which will always leave a portion of people disgruntled because they didn't get their favourite.
This also reminds me of Japanese PSX games having O for accept and X for cancel, while western games had it the other way 'round.
People get used to stuff. Newcomers will always have to learn. I mean, hell, you're getting an opensource linux handheld and are worried because X is now A... really!? Just because a few people get vocal over such trivial matters doesn't mean that it really is important.
I'll leave you guys to it, have some hard liquor and go on a Jim Sterling Greenlight trailers binge. Also go watch Kung Fury on Steam.
SONY's stuff is kind of okay since X O [] /\ works.
We also shouldn't try to make up for the non-standards nonsense NinSega has brewed up over the years. You can't account for what people are used to unless you just blatantly copy one that exists, which will always leave a portion of people disgruntled because they didn't get their favourite.
This also reminds me of Japanese PSX games having O for accept and X for cancel, while western games had it the other way 'round.
People get used to stuff. Newcomers will always have to learn. I mean, hell, you're getting an opensource linux handheld and are worried because X is now A... really!? Just because a few people get vocal over such trivial matters doesn't mean that it really is important.
I'll leave you guys to it, have some hard liquor and go on a Jim Sterling Greenlight trailers binge. Also go watch Kung Fury on Steam.
What I like about ⇤ ⇥ ⇞ ⇟ is that it does give directional clues, while avoiding confusion with the dpad, and while actually giving a clue as to what the keyboard function of the buttons is.
⇞ ⇟ are actually used on real keyboards: International Apple keyboards use this, so they don't have to translate "PageUp", "PageDown" to every possible language. Internationalization is a pretty good reason to use symbols and not words: e.g. I also don't want to have my Enter key labeled "Enter", "Entrée", "Intro", or "Eingabe", but just with the symbol ↵.
⇤ ⇥ are not used on real keyboards as far as I know, but that is probably just because real keyboards have Home/End arranged vertically, not horizontally, so the horizontal symbols would look weird. Apple uses ↖ ↘ and some others use ⇱ ⇲. In a horizontal arrangement, ⇤ ⇥ makes most sense, since Home/End is mostly a horizontal concept anyway (go to beginning of line / end of line)
The nice thing about ⇤ ⇥ ⇞ ⇟ is that it instantly becomes clear that ⇤ ⇥ "belong together", and ⇞ ⇟ also "belong together". That makes sense, because Home/End is a natural pair (they are symmetric: begin/end, first/last), and PageUp/PageDown is also a natural pair (also symmetric), and while the four of them are of course related (they're all "navigation in macro steps"), they are not four-way symmetric like the dpad: Home and End are not "PageLeft" and "PageRight".
And even for gaming I think it is better. In emulators there is no way to get the labels right anyway, so using "neutral" symbols will lead to less confusion than having to remember that A is B and B is X while X is A and Y is B or something like that. In native games, the symbols could actually help to give some "natural" semantics to the default button mapping of the game, e.g. ⇞to jump and ⇥ for "Confirm / Next / Shoot" makes more sense to me than Y to jump and B to confirm.
⇞ ⇟ are actually used on real keyboards: International Apple keyboards use this, so they don't have to translate "PageUp", "PageDown" to every possible language. Internationalization is a pretty good reason to use symbols and not words: e.g. I also don't want to have my Enter key labeled "Enter", "Entrée", "Intro", or "Eingabe", but just with the symbol ↵.
⇤ ⇥ are not used on real keyboards as far as I know, but that is probably just because real keyboards have Home/End arranged vertically, not horizontally, so the horizontal symbols would look weird. Apple uses ↖ ↘ and some others use ⇱ ⇲. In a horizontal arrangement, ⇤ ⇥ makes most sense, since Home/End is mostly a horizontal concept anyway (go to beginning of line / end of line)
The nice thing about ⇤ ⇥ ⇞ ⇟ is that it instantly becomes clear that ⇤ ⇥ "belong together", and ⇞ ⇟ also "belong together". That makes sense, because Home/End is a natural pair (they are symmetric: begin/end, first/last), and PageUp/PageDown is also a natural pair (also symmetric), and while the four of them are of course related (they're all "navigation in macro steps"), they are not four-way symmetric like the dpad: Home and End are not "PageLeft" and "PageRight".
And even for gaming I think it is better. In emulators there is no way to get the labels right anyway, so using "neutral" symbols will lead to less confusion than having to remember that A is B and B is X while X is A and Y is B or something like that. In native games, the symbols could actually help to give some "natural" semantics to the default button mapping of the game, e.g. ⇞to jump and ⇥ for "Confirm / Next / Shoot" makes more sense to me than Y to jump and B to confirm.
Nintendo
Nintendo Switch
The mainstream (I know ED is targeting a more niche linux market) would frown upon anything that isn't abxy or PS button. We need the casual people to look at Pyra and be immediately familiar with the action buttons.
I remember when I first saw the concept of the Gizmondo action buttons...I was like WTF!??
I remember when I first saw the concept of the Gizmondo action buttons...I was like WTF!??
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
Seriously? The fact that the main 4 are arranged in a diamond and are opposite a DPad with two nubs in-between isn't enough of a clue? People may very well go WTF, but they'd do that for the Pandora's odd ABXY order anyway. No matter how they are labelled I think there is no risk that anyone would not recognise their intended function.
- Neelix
- Neelix
Copying the Nintendo, XBox or Sony layout is probably a bad idea (I don't know about potential lawsuits, but the question would always be: which one to copy?)
Doing ABXY in yet another pattern than the big ones (like the GP2X / Pandora did) only creates a superficial kind of familiarity that turns out to be worthless in practice, and to me, it has a distinct smell of "cheap chinese ripoff". It's almost like calling the device "The Nimtembo GameStation" and expecting to be taken seriously.
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iprice
Certified Guru
ED could always copy OUYA and their buttons. Actually, on second thoughts...
Nintendo
Nintendo Switch
Mark my words...the finished Pyra product (face action buttons) will not have anything other than the four letters (abxy - any order/which ever order).
People have to face reality here. Feedback is all well and nice, but at the end of the day you can't beat the norm or what is close to the norm.
^ My prediction.
People have to face reality here. Feedback is all well and nice, but at the end of the day you can't beat the norm or what is close to the norm.
^ My prediction.
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