Action button labels: poll 2

[bzar]

The Playstation-Greek camp is spreading its negative votes quite evenly among the other proposals, while the Pandora-based Latin camp is concentrating its negative votes on the Playstation-Greek proposals.

Out of curiosity, how did you infer this?

 I didn't check that claim in detail, but that was the impression I got by quickly looking at who voted what. Let me check my first impression...

There are 11 voters who like Pandora-based Latin (proposal #1 or #2) the most, and 6 of them dislike Playstation-Greek (proposal #6 or #7) the most (in particular, 5 of them dislike the currently most popular Playstation-Greek proposal the most, #6).

There 10 voters who like Playstation-Greek the most, and 3 of them dislike Pandora-based Latin the most (in particular, 0 of them dislike the currently most popular Pandora-based Latin proposal the most, #2).

My bad, didn't notice the poll was public. I thought you were inferring these from the aggregated data

 

[_wb_]

could the two extra buttons be placed to the right or the top of the four original buttons? just curious to know if that would interfere with anything. sorry if this seems like a stupid question, as i am new here.

There is no room for that since ED doesn't want to make the device wider than it is now.

Also, as you can see here: http://youtu.be/ruFyq7fbfpU?t=26s there are holes in the PCB at four spots: to the top-left of the dpad, the top-right of the action buttons, and besides the shift-keys. Obviously we cannot put keys/buttons at or near a hole. The holes could perhaps be put in different locations, but mechanical strength has to be taken into account so I don't really see an alternative to the current hole locations -- but I'm no hardware guy.

It is somewhat suspicious that the layouts that are not popular (don't attract many positive votes) attract so few negative votes. E.g. lowercase Greek plus zeta/omega gets the least amount of positive votes (nobody chose it as #1 or #2), yet for some reason it does not get many negative votes either. Maybe that just means it's a good compromise proposal: sufficiently Pandora-like, sufficiently Latin-like, sufficiently Greek-like.

Going with that logic 4) Extended SNES is an even better compromise since it gathered not only more positive votes, but also less negative votes. I think we have a winner here...

(oh and I noticed how the two greek-lowercase options got nuked after you posted that, so I suspect this to happen to 4) soon, too... people, heh)

Actually I'm not in favor of compromise proposals, they make me feel "meh" and it feels like they mostly have all the disadvantages and none of the advantages of the more controversial proposals.

So in this case, I think I prefer to make some people happy and others angry. It's better than making nobody happy.

 

[levi]

I'm willing to add a poll option for a completely new proposal in case someone has one, but I'm not going to add poll options for all variants of the current proposals -- you'll have to pick the closest match, and we'll take the variants to the next round if its corresponding base proposal survives.

Okay, I can understand not modifying the poll at this late stage.

My question is, how should *I* vote for the closest match to Kiga's? Number 6 has psi in the lower position, number 7 has lambda in the top. I don't see a clear winner between the two, and as explained earlier I dislike them both for similar reasons, and I would rather not waste 2/3 of my positive votes voting for them both. Will your counting algorithm mean that we won't end up splitting the vote by having two equivalent options, or do we all need to agree on which one also means Kiga's equivalent so we can all vote for that one?

 

[_wb_]

I'm willing to add a poll option for a completely new proposal in case someone has one, but I'm not going to add poll options for all variants of the current proposals -- you'll have to pick the closest match, and we'll take the variants to the next round if its corresponding base proposal survives.

Okay, I can understand not modifying the poll at this late stage.

My question is, how should *I* vote for the closest match to Kiga's? Number 6 has psi in the lower position, number 7 has lambda in the top. I don't see a clear winner between the two, and as explained earlier I dislike them both for similar reasons, and I would rather not waste 2/3 of my positive votes voting for them both. Will your counting algorithm mean that we won't end up splitting the vote by having two equivalent options, or do we all need to agree on which one also means Kiga's equivalent so we can all vote for that one?

That's the same problem as someone who would like to have YABX + Z1/Z2 -- should you vote #1 or #2?

If I were in your case, I would probably vote for both 6 and 7 (in an arbitrary order), unless there are other proposals that you like almost as much and you still want to have enough positive votes left, in which case I would vote arbitrarily for either one. But that does indeed lead to splitting the vote.

I'm starting to think that it would have been better to have only 5 options (Pandora Latin, Other Latin, Playstation Greek, Pandora Greek, Alphanumerical) and let you rank them from 1 to 5. Oh well.

 

[Neelix]

I'm starting to think that it would have been better to have only 5 options (Pandora Latin, Other Latin, Playstation Greek, Pandora Greek, Alphanumerical) and let you rank them from 1 to 5. Oh well.

Could we not  just scrap this poll and do that?

- Neelix

 

[Granitehead]

+1 for scrapping this poll.

Edit: (and if we have only 5 options I heavily suggest making it possible to rank them all and letting people say how much they hate/love the worst/best one. I still need to reply to the how to do voting topic, but I still think just ranking stuff isn't enough, though it's already a good start)

 

[WizardStan]

Should there be a poll about scrapping the poll?

 

[Granitehead]

Of course.

 

[Kiga]

it would have been better to have only 5 options (Pandora Latin, Other Latin, Playstation Greek, Pandora Greek, Alphanumerical) and let you rank them from 1 to 5. Oh well.

That would be much more clear. Let's scrap that poll.

Edit: 5 mini poll should be maked for each category.

 

[_wb_]

I'm starting to think that it would have been better to have only 5 options (Pandora Latin, Other Latin, Playstation Greek, Pandora Greek, Alphanumerical) and let you rank them from 1 to 5. Oh well.

Could we not  just scrap this poll and do that?

- Neelix

Based on the current poll, is it OK to leave out "Other Latin" and "Alphanumerical" in the next poll? With only 3 options, there are just 6 ways to order them so the poll can be just a single question with 6 choices.

So the layout proposals would be:

- Pandora layout (YABX) + 2 extra (C/Z or C1/C2)

- Greek that looks like Playstation layout (ΔΠΩχ) + 2 extra

- Pandora-like lowercase Greek layout (γαβχ) + 2 extra

Or do I need to keep all 5 proposals?

 

[Granitehead]

If you kept them I would certainly put them above the backwards compatible but nonsensical ones...

 

[levi]

That would be fine by me personally, but would a 5 proposal poll be that hard to write?

 

[Kiga]

You shoud add SEGA style which had a lot of vote.



Like this:

- Pandora layout (YABX) + 2 extra (C/Z or C1/C2)

- SEGA-style (ZXCB + YA)

- Greek that looks like Playstation layout (ΔΠΩχ) + 2 extra

- Pandora-like lowercase Greek layout (γαβχ) + 2 extra

 

[_wb_]

That would be fine by me personally, but would a 5 proposal poll be that hard to write?

Not really, but 5! is quite a bit more than 3! so instead of 1 question with 6 possible answers, it would be 5 questions with 5 possible answers each. Still not nearly as bad as this one

 

[Neelix]

I'd rather keep the alphanumerical  option on the poll if you don't mind...  it's the only option on it that I actually like

- Neelix

 

[Grench]

And you guys all really understand that anything but #1 breaks software compatibility with the Pandora, right?

Seriously - don't go to Greek letters or change the key label orders on a whim.

I'm getting convinced that everyone voting for Greek letters are fanboys of a given console who don't have a clue of the additional ramifications of bending this device to fit their own favored aesthetic.

 

[_jr_]

AFAICT most of the people having publicly shown support for greek letters want something new and easily recognizable that fits the theme of the Pyra's name and that (in their personal view) has no serious downsides outweighing the benefit of having labels distinct from the keyboard keys. YMMV.

 

[pmprog]

And you guys all really understand that anything but #1 breaks software compatibility with the Pandora, right?

Not necessarily break compatibility, just look mislabeled. However, that's not uncommon, I bought a Guilty Gear game for the PC that showed me all the buttons on a PSone controller. Didn't have those symbols on my keyboard.
That said, I'm still not a fan of the greek symbols

 

[_wb_]

This approach: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15778-pandorapyra-applications-usrsharepandyra/ could help a lot to allow different labels on the Pandora and Pyra while having single PNDs that work on both.

Also, we could include the Pandora labels in small-print, just for backwards compatibility.

Note that most of the proposals do take backwards compatibility into account to some extent: all Greek proposals have χ where the Pandora X is, and the lowercase Greek specifically uses letters that resemble the Pandora labels.

The main thing we need for backwards compatibility is that the buttons are mapped to Home/End/Pgup/Pgdn. Their labels are less important -- emulator gamers are used to mismatched labels anyway, as long as the button positions make sense.

 

[Caine]

I'm starting to think that it would have been better to have only 5 options (Pandora Latin, Other Latin, Playstation Greek, Pandora Greek, Alphanumerical) and let you rank them from 1 to 5. Oh well.

That would allow me to express better what I think about the various proposals than the current format. I'm all for it, but don't create too many polls.