Action button labels: poll

[God Ginrai]

Why is everyone assuming that it essential to know the names of the symbols? Do you immediately know what the correct name is for # ^ & * [ ] { } | ` ? Is it important to know those names?

Because it is essential.

# ^ & * [ ] { } | ` ? can all be typed on a keyboard. You don't need the names of them to communicate in text form with them. However, it does indeed become a problem when trying to discuss them verbally.

 

Wb the verbal aspect is as important as the visual if not more.

Following that logic, maybe we should replace # ^ & * [ ] { } | ` on the Pyra keyboard with some more Latin letters. There can never be enough Latin letters! It will be very easy to discuss things!

Let's use this layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/78b42779397ed0927215b84cc2256430

</sarcasm>

All I see here is an attempt to bitch yourself out of a bad situation.

You have completely ignored my argument that unlike Greek characters, those characters can be typed by anyone with access to a keyboard, instead trying to tie my comment to milkshake's comment that Verbal is as important so that you can deny my claims.

Aside from the fact that more people know # ^ & * [ ] { } | ` than any of your Greek symbols, they are easy to type, which is something that you can't say about your Greek characters.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

unlike Greek characters, those characters can be typed by anyone with access to a keyboard

So what? We should limit our choice because once a month one person need to type ψ and is so ignorant that he don't know that it's Psi?

We have to chose the best labeling, no matter that some people don't know how to name it (while they will need to do it once a decade). They can learn and a lot of people have already proposed different way to name it without knowing their names.

 

[Granitehead]

You have completely ignored my argument that unlike Greek characters, those characters can be typed by anyone with access to a keyboard, instead trying to tie my comment to milkshake's comment that Verbal is as important so that you can deny my claims.

No, they can't be typed by anyone. I'm sure I know at lest 5 people who couldn't type all of # ^ & * [ ] { } | `.I need to try out which key combination ("´" - no, "˛" - no) "`" (finally) is every time too.

 

[milkshake]

unlike Greek characters, those characters can be typed by anyone with access to a keyboard

So what? We should limit our choice because once a month one person need to type ψ and is so ignorant that he don't know that it's Psi?

We have to chose the best labeling, no matter that some people don't know how to name it (while they will need to do it once a decade). They can learn and a lot of people have already proposed different way to name it without knowing their names.

I wish you would stop responding in this thread like your view is the only correct view by default.

I and others don't agree with a lot of your opinions.

The fact that not everyone agrees with you and the fact that end result hasn't been decided yet should be enough to suggest that your opinion is not yet fact and may never be.

 

[Kiga]

I wish you would stop responding in this thread like your view is the only correct view by default.


I and others don't agree with a lot of your opinions.


The fact that not everyone agrees with you and the fact that end result hasn't been decided yet should be enough to suggest that your opinion is not yet fact and may never be.

There is written "Kiga" at the top of all my posts, so open your eyes.

I understand that you wish I stop responding because you haven't any arguments. But I don't care about what you wish, so please stop pollute this thread with empty off-topic posts.

 

[milkshake]

It's not about arguments.

The fact is every time you reply your tone is one of superiority and I for one do not appreciate.

And to point this out is not polluting the thread but tries to improve it.

 

[_wb_]

OK, enough with the meta-discussion.

Yes, Greek characters are harder to type than Latin ones. On the Pyra itself this does not have to be true though: we could easily make AltGr+<button> produce the symbol of the button, as long as the symbol is unicode.

On the forum, we could add buttons as a kind of smileys or whatever.

My point is that the most important communication is the communication from dev to user. Having ambiguous button labels makes that communication less effective and/or more confusing than having unambiguous labels. So label symbols being hard to type is mostly a problem for devs, not really for users. As long as devs can figure out how to do it, we will be fine.

 

[Kiga]

Tell me why my tone is one of superiority? Because I don't say IMO in the beginning of all my sentences? I don't say IMO because it's stupid and not logic since everybody know it's my opinion (and a fact to me till you proves otherwise).

Also, I understand that some people are annoying by the fact Greek letters aren't known like Latin and that it's hard to type. And it also annoying me.

But that outside element is nothing compared of what Greeks Letters brings in term of consistency. Outside element is nothing since it's modular, we just need to change(and like I shown it's not a big change), on the contrary logic and consitency are immutable. That's what I defend on this thread.

The fact is some people don't care about consistency since it's a little and quite cosmetic point, but as it's a little point why not changing it?

Lot of people tend to stay with theirs habits except for those who follow logic (like a lot of people here). But as it's a little non-logic fact which they can ignore, some people here want to stay with habits.

I'm perfectionist, and I think the path to perfection is no latin letters since they are used. And the best option proposed in term of consistency with Pyra project is Greek Letters.

 

[iprice]

But that outside element is nothing compared of what Greeks Letters brings in term of consistency

Having Latin and Greek characters on the device itself is not exactly consistent. Despite what it solves, it also causes other problems. This has been clearly identified. Many, many times.

There is no one way to please everyone and it would be nice if ED poked his head in to give his opinion, after all while we are a community who all have our own opinions (and they are only opinions, not facts), it's ED's baby in the end. We know that whatever decisions are taken we will all love the end result.

 

[God Ginrai]

We have to chose the best labeling, no matter that some people don't know how to name it (while they will need to do it once a decade). They can learn and a lot of people have already proposed different way to name it without knowing their names.

 A labelling that is not easily known is by no means "the best".

No, they can't be typed by anyone. I'm sure I know at lest 5 people who couldn't type all of # ^ & * [ ] { } | `.

I need to try out which key combination ("´" - no, "˛" - no) "`" (finally) is every time too.

 Pics of your keyboard, please? I don't know the other layouts (AZERTY, QWERTZ, DVORAK) well enough, however I was pretty certain that those keys were available on most.

Yes, Greek characters are harder to type than Latin ones. On the Pyra itself this does not have to be true though: we could easily make AltGr+<button> produce the symbol of the button, as long as the symbol is unicode.

 I've already addressed this issue by mentioning that people will need to discuss it other than on their Pyra.

On the forum, we could add buttons as a kind of smileys or whatever.

 Again, I've also addressed this issue, pointing out that these forums are not the only place where people will discuss these devices. There's DCEmu, GP32X, even emails, among others.

My point is that the most important communication is the communication from dev to user. Having ambiguous button labels makes that communication less effective and/or more confusing than having unambiguous labels. So label symbols being hard to type is mostly a problem for devs, not really for users. As long as devs can figure out how to do it, we will be fine.

 Communication between users is equally as important. And in the verbal and textual forms, there are problems with the Greek layout with respect to that user-user communication.

Trying one button, seeing it doesn't work, trying the other, and learning that that was the correct button is a lot shorter and easier solved of a dilemma than not even knowing how to type or call the buttons on the gamepad.

Tell me why my tone is one of superiority? Because i don't say IMO in the beginning of all my sentences? I don't say IMO because it's stupid and not logic since everybody know it's my opinion (and a fact to me till you proves otherwise).

 How about the fact that you keep insisting that Greek characters are the best option and suggest that other people should just have to learn?

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

I'm perfectionist

My irony detector is just going crazy! What is with it today?

 

[Klumpen]

 

[Granitehead]

@Ginrai: Of course they are technically present, people just don't know what combination they need to get it.

 

[Kiga]

We have to chose the best labeling, no matter that some people don't know how to name it (while they will need to do it once a decade). They can learn and a lot of people have already proposed different way to name it without knowing their names.

 
A labelling that is not easily known is by no means "the best".

Nonsense. The nature of something does not depend on something which is outside and modular.

Tell me why my tone is one of superiority? Because i don't say IMO in the beginning of all my sentences? I don't say IMO because it's stupid and not logic since everybody know it's my opinion (and a fact to me till you proves otherwise).

 
How about the fact that you keep insisting that Greek characters are the best option and suggest that other people should just have to learn?

And I repeat it Greek characters are the only best option according to logic criteria of: no-redundancy (basics of labelling), consistency with Pyra project, readability.

But as I said

everybody know it's my opinion (and a fact to me till you proves otherwise)..

I'm perfectionist

My irony detector is just going crazy! What is with it today?

Thank you, I can give an example of what is really a "tone of superiority". Because this dude pretend to know me better than me and whitout argument.

 

[WizardStan]

Thank you

That wasn't a compliment. I was pointing out that a self-proclaimed perfectionist made a mistake: that is a classic example of irony.

 

[milkshake]

Nonsense. The nature of something does not depend on something which is outside and modular.

I have no idea what that even means.


But I know it sounds like your trying to shoot down someone elses valid points.

 

[levi]

Is it time to set up another poll so we can see whose position has the public support, and we can put this silly pantomime to bed?


I'd do it, but I'm too tired at the moment, and haven't been following the argument all too closely anyway.

 

[_wb_]

But that outside element is nothing compared of what Greeks Letters brings in term of consistency

Having Latin and Greek characters on the device itself is not exactly consistent.

You could just as well argue that having Latin letters and Arabic numerals is not consistent. For consistency we should label the number keys with I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, nulla. Either that, or change the keyboard layout to this:

I don't think this degree of consistency is really needed

 

[Kiga]

Thank you

That wasn't a compliment. I was pointing out that a self-proclaimed perfectionist made a mistake: that is a classic example of irony.

"Thank you" was and is a sincere thanks and "this dude" was you.

Nonsense. The nature of something does not depend on something which is outside and modular.

I have no idea what that even means.


But I know it sounds like your trying to shoot down someone elses valid points.

"valid points" ?

A labelling that is not easily known is by no means "the best".

Firstly it's not because God Ginrai said it that it's true, there isn't any argument to prove what he is saying. Then I was pointing out that to judge for something (labelling) value, God Ginrai chose as absolute criteria something which is completely outside of this thing's specifications (how much is it known) and which is modular (it can change and quite easily), I could add which is unknown because nobody know how many person know Greek Letters  here.

So there isn't any sense in his affirmation.

 

[kloplop321]

(First post in 2 years)

I don't care about the pandora compatibility mapping, it is horrendous to begin with, it is the positions that people use. Heck, pnd-manager says to use "B" like where every single other console out there would use "A".

If we can't have ABXY in a sensical way, I am cool with the cardinal directions (N/W/S/E).