Action button labels, again

[comradekingu]

For the purpose of simplicity, since that is the bulk of the argument of why things fare better than others, why not go all the way?

Similarly NSEW may be better than any arrangement of ABXY, but that doesnt take away from the inherent problem, having to do a translation to compass-directions, before getting to the point.

With ABXY you end up having to do X is Y, or else, a lot. With compass directions, you have different languages producing the bearings with different letters.

 

[FelixNemis]

What about ABCD for the main 4 and XY (or Ins Del, I prefer XY) for the other two

 

[TrashyMG]

Or just stick to the Pandora scheme, pick something for the two new buttons. 

It's really a non-issue, not everything needs to be re-invented. 

 

[FelixNemis]

not everything needs to be re-invented.

True, but what's the fun in that.
I'm fine with pretty much any variation on ABXY and I think NSEW would also be fine, coming up with custom symbols or using weird home/end page up/down symbols seems a bit contrived though

 

[rygD]

Or go with their keyboard functions.  Why are we still trying to reinvent the wheel?  Go with Pandora layout or keyboard functions.  Why are people still trying to find a "better" way?  Guess what, it isn't better.  Even the Pandora layout sucks, and there is really no need to keep it.  If it goes away why replace it with something else useless?

 

[Saber]

Or go with their keyboard functions.  Why are we still trying to reinvent the wheel?  Go with Pandora layout or keyboard functions.  Why are people still trying to find a "better" way?  Guess what, it isn't better.  Even the Pandora layout sucks, and there is really no need to keep it.  If it goes away why replace it with something else useless?

Some parts of the Pandora layout arguably aren't very good on paper: Start/Select columned instead of side by side, brightness controls near Fn, one keyboard Shift, Comma and Period on left, and Spacebar on the right. Over time though those who have used a Pandora have found the keyboard productive in spite of it's unique conventions.    

 

[Binky]

For the purpose of simplicity, since that is the bulk of the argument of why things fare better than others, why not go all the way?

Similarly NSEW may be better than any arrangement of ABXY, but that doesnt take away from the inherent problem, having to do a translation to compass-directions, before getting to the point.

With ABXY you end up having to do X is Y, or else, a lot. With compass directions, you have different languages producing the bearings with different letters.

Because we already have a d-pad

Two sets of arrow keys is really asking for trouble.

ABCD+XY might make sense, since then the labels suggest that ABCD is a set and XY is a set, which they are.

On the other hand, its yet another way of using the letters ABXY, which is pretty confusing

ABXY + I&II is better in that regard

 

[comradekingu]

Or go with their keyboard functions.  Why are we still trying to reinvent the wheel?  Go with Pandora layout or keyboard functions.  Why are people still trying to find a "better" way?  Guess what, it isn't better.  Even the Pandora layout sucks, and there is really no need to keep it.  If it goes away why replace it with something else useless?

Some parts of the Pandora layout arguably aren't very good on paper: Start/Select columned instead of side by side, brightness controls near Fn, one keyboard Shift, Comma and Period on left, and Spacebar on the right. Over time though those who have used a Pandora have found the keyboard productive in spite of it's unique conventions.    

So you are admitting its sub-par, and that this is something you need to get over. Knowing it isn't possible to get over, for a discernible amount of people, you are arguing for subjecting everyone, which aligns pretty much with everyone who hasn't ever tried a pandora, to the same, again?

Edit: If the convention isn't equally valuable, it cant ever be on par, that isn't "arguable".

Now in some universe you could actually apply this to the unconventional BXYA of the pandora, however in the real world, that has proved futile. Its not even wearing the pants the wrong way, its pants on head.

 

[Saber]

As long as it's understood I was speaking of the Pandora's layout.  

 

[comradekingu]

Edit: I'm wrong about the engraving on the buttoncluster. Misread ED. (Went back in thread and corrected)

So potentially two colours buttoncluster, same as the keypad.

For the purpose of simplicity, since that is the bulk of the argument of why things fare better than others, why not go all the way?

Similarly NSEW may be better than any arrangement of ABXY, but that doesnt take away from the inherent problem, having to do a translation to compass-directions, before getting to the point.

With ABXY you end up having to do X is Y, or else, a lot. With compass directions, you have different languages producing the bearings with different letters.

 Because we already have a d-pad

Two sets of arrow keys is really asking for trouble.

ABCD+XY might make sense, since then the labels suggest that ABCD is a set and XY is a set, which they are.

On the other hand, its yet another way of using the letters ABXY, which is pretty confusing

ABXY + I&II is better in that regard

Look at a german numpad, same arrows up and down right next to eachother. Reason why its preferable to spelling it all out (like others) is its cognitively quicker.
Same reason why having turn-signals and a wheel on a car works, they are different concepts. A and B, in the same place as there sometimes is B A, and sometimes X, is a whole lot more confusing, because its activly wrong over half the time. As for doing the job, ABXY + I & II has no meaningful connotation to 87-keys.

Its not the labels you remember from their primary 87-position, its the position. PageUp and PageDn Home/End isn't that far removed, horizontal insert delete is just awkward. Looking at the basis of the problem, having them in an arrangement that makes sense, rather than a 2x3 cluster, lessens the need to spell it all out. Which is a bonus when you have a quarter key to do it.

 

[rygD]

Or go with their keyboard functions.  Why are we still trying to reinvent the wheel?  Go with Pandora layout or keyboard functions.  Why are people still trying to find a "better" way?  Guess what, it isn't better.  Even the Pandora layout sucks, and there is really no need to keep it.  If it goes away why replace it with something else useless?

Some parts of the Pandora layout arguably aren't very good on paper: Start/Select columned instead of side by side, brightness controls near Fn, one keyboard Shift, Comma and Period on left, and Spacebar on the right. Over time though those who have used a Pandora have found the keyboard productive in spite of it's unique conventions.    

Yes, but this is not a discussion about the keyboard layout yet.  Additionally, I am saying keep it the same as on the Pandora if the buttons must have "gaming" labeled buttons.  ED probably wants that, and I doubt he will be fond of something completely new.  

Or go with their keyboard functions.  Why are we still trying to reinvent the wheel?  Go with Pandora layout or keyboard functions.  Why are people still trying to find a "better" way?  Guess what, it isn't better.  Even the Pandora layout sucks, and there is really no need to keep it.  If it goes away why replace it with something else useless?

Some parts of the Pandora layout arguably aren't very good on paper: Start/Select columned instead of side by side, brightness controls near Fn, one keyboard Shift, Comma and Period on left, and Spacebar on the right. Over time though those who have used a Pandora have found the keyboard productive in spite of it's unique conventions.    

So you are admitting its sub-par, and that this is something you need to get over. Knowing it isn't possible to get over, for a discernible amount of people, you are arguing for subjecting everyone, which aligns pretty much with everyone who hasn't ever tried a pandora, to the same, again?

I am saying to do the same when it comes to the action buttons.  Elements and directional symbols of all sorts (including keyboard functions and compass points), make logical sense to some of us, but what about some random console only gamer that isn't aware of some of this stuff?  The things that probably make sense to them are ABXY or PS symbols.  I think it might also give an impression of some cheap Chinese knock-off to include other things, not that it really matters.

 Its not the labels you remember from their primary 87-position, its the position.

This is where we need to put our attention to help people that are new to the Pyra, both with the keyboard and the gaming buttons.  

I still can't remember which shoulder button does what, so I don't use them much.  This isn't an option with things like ins, del, home, end, page up, and page down.  Since we are most likely getting Pandora-style ABXY we should try to find a way to include what else they do.  Insert and delete are where we need creativity due to the tiny cap.  It would be good if we could find a way to include a gaming themed label and the keyboard functions, but I don't see it happening the way those are usually done.  

Time for one of my stupid ideas.  Combining some options Binky mentioned: would I/D or i/d for the little buttons make sense to anyone for insert and delete?  I don't think I/X (as suggsted by ck) or +/- are that great, but they fit and make logical sense to me.  The problem with ck's idea, if we stick with Pandora ABXY, is there is already an X button (and an X key...we could just make all action buttons X ).  

Another stupid idea: all white for insert and all black or red for delete.  There were xbox controllers that had black and white buttons.  I am not sure if that would hint at their keyboard functions, though.

 

[comradekingu]

I don't use the shoulders either, because they werent marked, so I didn't know about it, and never learnt to use it much.

Console-gamers are not a homogenous group. In the event that some of them have been exposed to only one ABXY-orientation, that could work for that subset, but its more-so not the case for the whole, and then ABXY is activly confusing matters. It only works for one console doing one catalogue of games. PS-layout is trademarked.

Combining direction with something that looks game-like, you end up with <^v> being the simplest, which is good given the limited space. Instead of confusing matters, it strengthens 87-key use, and has equally quick cognitive functionality to any paradigm. And you can pick yourself what is the primary button, either by position, or what its configured to be ingame (depending on original controller)

Flathead and screw for the +2 buttons is similarly the simplest way to distinguish insert and delete without it looking forced.

 

[Binky]

Flathead and screw

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean!

 

[Saber]

Flathead and screw

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean!

He's talking about - for flathead and + for screw(phillips screwdriver). 

 

[Urben]

Actually not a bad idea.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Screw_drive_types2.svg/1024px-Screw_drive_types2.svg.png

a and b for the left buttons, d e f and another from the lowest row for action buttons.

This would fit to a technical device, but makes it hard to name these buttons if you dont know the right names.

Also, patents..

 

[Eight Bit]

Actually not a bad idea.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Screw_drive_types2.svg/1024px-Screw_drive_types2.svg.png

a and b for the left buttons, d e f and another from the lowest row for action buttons.

This would fit to a technical device, but makes it hard to name these buttons if you dont know the right names.

Also, patents..

star hex sqr and tri perhaps?

Don't think there's patents on using shapes... Is there?

 

[rygD]

Fuck it, I'm out.

 

[_wb_]

Is this OK for everyone?

OK, here's a very "Keep it simple" proposal:

It has the keyboard functions in text, since I think that is easiest to understand, even for non-English speakers.

The Pandora Latin letters are also there, in the auxiliary color, mostly for backwards compatibility. The extra buttons don't need such an extra label, because the Pandora didn't have them, and also because there is less room anyway.

Can this fit in a reasonable font size? I hope so. Here's a quick overlay which shows the above proposal with a cut up picture of the Pandora action buttons and the START/SELECT/PANDORA buttons: (sorry about the perspective, which is not right, but the relative scale should be more or less OK)

From the above picture, I would imagine that it should be possible to fit the letters in roughly the same font size as START/ALT and SELECT/CTRL on the Pandora, even if the margins to be respected are bigger than what I used here.

 

[Urben]

With this:

To decrease PageUp / PageDown in size:

yes, so Y and X have the same size as A and B. And I would prefer "Page down" below X.

 

[Caine]

yes, so Y and X have the same size as A and B. And I would prefer "Page down" below X.

You can also just abbreviate them to PgUp and PgDn, that's a fairly common thing to do.I agree with having PgDn below the X.