Action button labels, again


@_wb_, I do like your idea of combo ABXY + Home/End/PgUp/PgDn if space on the buttons allows for it.
 
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I'd be very happy if we could get rid of ABXY. That never did make any sense for keys on a handheld computer that are bound to Home/End/PageUp/PageDn by default. But adding a label indicating the real binding is at least a step in the right direction.
 
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I'd be very happy if we could get rid of ABXY. That never did make any sense for keys on a handheld computer that are bound to Home/End/PageUp/PageDn by default. But adding a label indicating the real binding is at least a step in the right direction.
Well I could see a situation were the game buttons on the Pyra could actually be put into a real Joystick mode vs just a keyboard mode as the game buttons are on their own GPIOs and separate from the keyboard matrix.  However the Pandora was setup this way as well and a joystick mode really never came to be, so we will see how that will develop. 
 
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I'd be very happy if we could get rid of ABXY. That never did make any sense for keys on a handheld computer that are bound to Home/End/PageUp/PageDn by default. But adding a label indicating the real binding is at least a step in the right direction.
For those who owned a Pandora, A was Home, B was End, and Y and X were PgUp and PgDn. They are beyond easy to recollect which is which and I see no reason to put itty bitty tiny letters, or symbols, on each face button. Same goes for the shoulder triggers. It isn't THAT difficult to remember the few inputs that aren't labeled. It shouldn't be anyways.  :blink:
 
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Its impossibly hard when you dont know already, which is what people are dealing with. It failed on the pandora.

Much easier to adjust to the (better albeit changed), concept of having directional 87-keys when its not latin letters, or other irrelevant marking.

WizardS: Me being confused by X for X is no big deal, when X is at A or B is when everyone is confused, only to a lesser degree if you have been using gp2x or OP.

I'm confused.

Why do some people believe ABXY is a superior choice to NESW?
Because they think ABXY is _one_thing, when its two. (ABXY or BAYX) Sometimes they mean a third (BXYA) Which is backwards-compatibility with the most limited pool of games there is.

Further diminished by porting the games that do use BXYA.

ABXY in any orientation just means more foreward incompability than backward compatibility. Directional markings are always neutral, or better in the case of native games.

Most importantly directions translate a lot better to Home End PageUp and PageDn. NESW translate to direction, via a de-tour.

<^v> relate to direction natively, so you can focus on what matters. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/259512795_What_working_memory_subcomponents_are_needed_in_the_acquisition_of_survey_knowledge_Evidence_from_direction_estimation_and_shortcut_tasks
 
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Wow, I didn't know that people found the Pandora's face button layout hard to understand or use. References please? I'd like to read about this.

D.
 
Whenever you take a piece of software that isn't Pandora/Pyra customized (i.e. 99.999% of software that would potentially run on the Pyra) and use it's builtin keymapper (or config file) it will force you to map PgDn when you want to use the key mistakenly labeled X. That isn't a major problem, but not repeating such mistakes is what is called progress. Either don't have it bound to a standard keyboard key (even more absurd with the low number of keys) or label it appropriately.
 
It comes up whenever a GP2X layout console is released. People seeing it for the first time is where it never makes any sense.

The people buying buying them are almost exclusively exposed to something else. They also continue predominantly using a 'something else' convention -system through emulation.

This is the problem:

The A is where X or Y is supposed to be

The B is where A or B is supposed to be

The X is where B or A is supposed to be

The Y is where Y or X is supposed to be

A is not the primary position of either

The pairs AB and XY are broken.

ZXCV is commonly used as buttons when using emulators on PC, so when you ask for X, that kicks in. (minor point)

I dont have that problem with <v^>, but if you wanted to distinguish, you could make it the 90 degree angles.
 
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So not really a big deal.
Exactly!

If it ain't life-threateningly broke, don't fix it!

Hey, why don't we put a 160x144 monochrome screen in the Pyra, and remove the keyboard, shoulder buttons and all that, and just keep the dpad, SELECT, START, A and B button? After all, that is a proven concept, millions of people could work with that just fine, so why change it?
 
As a wise prophet once said:

bxya.jpegbxya2.jpeg
 
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It is broken, why not fix it?
is it really broken?
yes
How? if you are talking about the Pandora/GP2X style layout, sure it's not ideal if you are used to XBOX/Dreamcast style. Personally I have no issues switching between controllers styles.


A minor issue of remembering were some keys are doesn't mean we need Greek lettering, funny chevrons or Navigational directions. Is there any real legal reason we can't match the standard for ABXY?
 
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It is broken, why not fix it?
is it really broken?
yes
...Is there any real legal reason we can't match the standard for ABXY?
Nintendo or Microsoft's legal departments could answer that but I'd rather we not ask the question by using one of their schemes in the first place. I also don't want NSEW for the action buttons, unless the Pyra will play double duty as a compass. 
 
It is broken, why not fix it?
is it really broken?
yes
How? if you are talking about the Pandora/GP2X style layout, sure it's not ideal if you are used to XBOX/Dreamcast style. Personally I have no issues switching between controllers styles.


A minor issue of remembering were some keys are doesn't mean we need Greek lettering, funny chevrons or Navigational directions. Is there any real legal reason we can't match the standard for ABXY?
I doubt it (if you could copyright the order of 4 letters, then someone could just as well own the copyright on QWERTY and charge every keyboard company in the world).

The point is: which standard would you match?

And you may consider it a "minor issue" to remember which of those "game buttons" is (Left) Ctrl, (Right) Ctrl, (Left) Alt, (Right) Alt, (Right) Shift, (Right) Meta, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins and Del (or at least that's what they do in most layout proposals), but I don't think that is a minor issue at all. Those are 12 pretty important keyboard keys that are in completely nonstandard positions, and if they don't get properly labeled, I think we're crippling the keyboard.

In my opinion, labeling the "game buttons" only with L1/L2/R1/R2/START/SELECT/A/B/X/Y/I/II would be worse than labeling the ASDF row of the keyboard with something non-useful (say, "12345678 square circle", even if those keys actually produce "asdfghjkl"), because at least the ASDF row is in a standard position so if you do a lot of keyboard typing, you already know where those letters are, even if they're not labeled (still, I strongly recommend to label the ASDF row correctly!). By contrast, there is no way to know, a priori, what keyboard keys those shoulder buttons and action buttons are supposed to map to, because normal keyboard don't have shoulder buttons and action button clusters.

And no, explaining things in a manual or on a default wallpaper is not good enough.
 
It is broken, why not fix it?
is it really broken?
yes
How? if you are talking about the Pandora/GP2X style layout, sure it's not ideal if you are used to XBOX/Dreamcast style. Personally I have no issues switching between controllers styles.
A minor issue of remembering were some keys are doesn't mean we need Greek lettering, funny chevrons or Navigational directions. Is there any real legal reason we can't match the standard for ABXY?
Maybe I am wrong, but putting information that is inaccurate most of the time on something to tell what it does seems broken to me.  Labeling a bottle of water "building material" is correct sometimes, but most of the time it is wrong.  Label it for what it is or does most of the time.  Using keyboard functions as the labels for the gaming buttons does this.

The only time the Pandora markings are correct are when they are used for software that internally identifies them as that to the user.

You may not have read my previous posts, but I propose we get rid of gaming style markings on the buttons since they will nearly always be incorrect.  Even if you go with one of the more popular layouts, it is incorrect a lot of the time (whenever you are not playing a game in an emulator with one of those layouts with keybindings that match the game or console defaults).  It helps all users to go with what has the best chances of being correct in most scenarios.  Marking things for what they don't do helps almost no one, and makes it "broken" for many.
 
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I doubt it (if you could copyright the order of 4 letters, then someone could just as well own the copyright on QWERTY and charge every keyboard company in the world).
As I understand, it's trademark, not copyright, a completely different kettle of fish.
 
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