Action button labels

[_wb_]

What is the obsession with needing to find symbols for the game buttons?


It is just not needed we have an existing scheme that will already fit nicely.


How about:


Y


A B


X


C1


C2

In my opinion, the existing Pandora button labels are not that great to start with. It was fine for the GP2X, but adding a keyboard does make a difference. For example, to refer to the shoulder buttons I use L1 and R1 (even though there is only one of each) just to avoid potential confusion with the L and R keys.

Contrary to what some are claiming, "keyboard button" is not a contradiction in terms. Maybe "key" is the preferred word when referring to particular buttons on a keyboard, but the distinction is not at all obvious. And as I've said before, you don't want to have to use the explicit words "key" and "button" all the time.

So in my opinion, the Pandora way of doing it (having two "things" labeled with the same letter) is somewhat broken, and this would be a good opportunity to fix that.

And also I wasnt specifically taking about the location of the commonly used gaming buttons just that those were pretty Standard (common) buttons used so far in the history of gaming ie. A, B, X, Y and C

What good is it to use the same symbols if you can't put them in the right positions anyway? (at least not for all game consoles)

Also, wouldn't you say that PSX and PSP have some importance too?

Something like this:

    C1

  Y  C2

A  B

  X

does not look elegant at all to me. Yes, it is backwards compatible, but that is about the only nice property it has.

 

[God Ginrai]

In my opinion, the existing Pandora button labels are not that great to start with. It was fine for the GP2X, but adding a keyboard does make a difference. For example, to refer to the shoulder buttons I use L1 and R1 (even though there is only one of each) just to avoid potential confusion with the L and R keys.

Contrary to what some are claiming, "keyboard button" is not a contradiction in terms. Maybe "key" is the preferred word when referring to particular buttons on a keyboard, but the distinction is not at all obvious. And as I've said before, you don't want to have to use the explicit words "key" and "button" all the time.

So in my opinion, the Pandora way of doing it (having two "things" labeled with the same letter) is somewhat broken, and this would be a good opportunity to fix that.

 You learn the buttons when you first start the game. Any screw ups you have would be at the beginning and not detrimental. It's not like you get halfway through the game and then try to save for the first time. As I've said before, we learn through our mistakes. If you press the wrong button, there's only one other option. It's not that hard.

Something like this:

    C1

  Y  C2

A  B

  X

does not look elegant at all to me. Yes, it is backwards compatible, but that is about the only nice property it has.

I agree, It follows no logical progression. The reason that the N64 had 4 C buttons is that they were Camera buttons, and so they had 4 directions. You can't just say "it's like the N64" and then have 2.

Honestly, I still believe this is the best option:

    Z

  Y  C

X  B

  A

Even considering the difference between the Pandora layout and this, the difference is only that the A and X buttons are swapped, which is not hard to remember.

-God Ginrai

 

[Klumpen]

If I am not mistaken, the original (first) ABXY layout was the one from the SNES.

Is there some patent that forbids us to use it?

 

[God Ginrai]

If I am not mistaken, the original (first) ABXY layout was the one from the SNES.

Is there some patent that forbids us to use it?

We have 6 buttons, why would we use the SNES abxy layout? That would still create an unorganized mess for the extra buttons.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

The main problem with Greek letters is that people are afraid of change. Just because A,B,X,Y are commonly used, a lot of people will never want to change it. Especially because the problem with latin letters isn't critical.

The fact is Pyra isn't a common console. It's got a keyboard, that's why there is NO raison to take letters except following usual labelling.

We could chose to assume Pyra's difference and find another labeling (like Greek letters) and make that difference a chance by giving to Pyra and next consoles their own style, their own identity (like psx did).

 

[Klumpen]

If I am not mistaken, the original (first) ABXY layout was the one from the SNES.


Is there some patent that forbids us to use it?

We have 6 buttons, why would we use the SNES abxy layout? That would still create an unorganized mess for the extra buttons.

-God Ginrai

Since some people stated from the beginning, that two additional buttons would confuse them, I thought that it would be a good idea to label them independently.

They are not labeled at all in my usual gamepad and just have another size than the four main ones and two different colors.

 

[milkshake]

Well typing that extra word "key" or "button" does not seem like such a major issue to me and it clearly explains the intentions of what your are asking them to press. The only people that maybe confused are very technologically illiterate people who probably will not buy the pyra anyway.

NO Greek letters just use standard gaming buttons but together we can decide the best positioning for them.

 

[Rivaan]

What about:

    Z
  Y  C
X  B
  A

But having the Pandora layout as small-print labels to the side of the buttons that differ? Or perhaps small print on the buttons themselves, if there is enough room, leaving the side label areas free for 'PgUp', 'PgDn', etc.

 

[Kiga]

Well typing that extra word "key" or "button" does not seem like such a major issue to me and it clearly explains the intentions of what your are asking them to press. The only people that maybe confused are very technologically illiterate people who probably will not buy the pyra anyway.

Why should we type extra-word. For your love of "standard"? Because you don't know greek's letters name? Well it would be an opportunity for you to be less "illiterate".

NO Greek letters just use standard gaming buttons but together we can decide the best positioning for them.

Pyra isn't a standard gaming console. Plus, you should learn what the topic is about by reading the first post.

 

[_wb_]

Well typing that extra word "key" or "button" does not seem like such a major issue to me and it clearly explains the intentions of what your are asking them to press. The only people that maybe confused are very technologically illiterate people who probably will not buy the pyra anyway.


NO Greek letters just use standard gaming buttons but together we can decide the best positioning for them.

There is no way to use A,B,X,Y + 2 more (C,Z or whatever) that makes everyone happy.

The Pandora layout is not ideal to begin with: it's different from all of the consoles it can emulate, and it does cause confusion with the keyboard keys even if this confusion does not usually lead to terrible consequences. Adding two more buttons to that only makes things worse.

The Sega layout is nice for emulating Sega consoles, and it looks logical. However it is different from the Pandora layout, and if we're going to abandon the Pandora layout, we can as well design something new from scratch.

Latin letters make sense for game consoles because they don't have a keyboard. On our device, A B C X Y Z are already "taken".

The Pyra is a unique device with unique possibilities. Why not give its buttons unique labels too?

It's not like there is anything remotely resembling a standard layout for action buttons anyway. Let's take a look at the game consoles of today:

XBox:

  Y

X  B

  A

PlayStation:

  △

□    ◯ 

     X

Nintendo:

  X

Y  A

  B

Ouya:

  Y

U  A

  O

Steam controller:

Y    B

X    A

Pandora:

  Y

A  B

  X

What does "just use standard gaming buttons" even mean? The standard seems to be "doing something else than everyone else"

 

[_wb_]

What about:

    Z


  Y  C


X  B


  A

But having the Pandora layout as small-print labels to the side of the buttons that differ? Or perhaps small print on the buttons themselves, if there is enough room, leaving the side label areas free for 'PgUp', 'PgDn', etc.

That does not really solve the problem. If I tell you "press A", do I mean the action button with big label A or the action button with small-print label A? Or maybe just the key A?

 

[milkshake]

If u say press the A "button" it's Very clear what he needs to press.

When I say standard buttons I do not mean the layout I mean the most common letters used as labels for gaming controls.

Why do u think those labels are used so often? We can easily keep Pandora backwards compatibility and add 2 new buttons without any detrimental effect, we don't need special symbols to replace what already works.

 

[Kiga]

Why do u think those labels are used so often?

Because usual console don't have keyboard? A button label is made to differentiate button. That's why no button should have the same label.

 

[TrashyMG]

That does not really solve the problem. If I tell you "press A", do I mean the action button with big label A or the action button with small-print label A? Or maybe just the key A?

Because usual console don't have keyboard? A button label is made to differentiate button. That's why no button should have the same label.

It's still a non-issue. 

 

[iprice]

What about:

    Z


  Y  C


X  B


  A

But having the Pandora layout as small-print labels to the side of the buttons that differ? Or perhaps small print on the buttons themselves, if there is enough room, leaving the side label areas free for 'PgUp', 'PgDn', etc.

That does not really solve the problem. If I tell you "press A", do I mean the action button with big label A or the action button with small-print label A? Or maybe just the key A?

Has this ever been a problem when playing an emulated snes or megadrive game on the Pandora? No. So why should it be an issue now? As I and others have said you may make a mistake with differentiating when first starting a game (however unlikely as a snes game will more likely use the buttons and not keys), but it's doubtful you'd keep making the same mistake.

This really isn't an issue and it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled, because while playing you won't be looking at them anyway.

 

[Kiga]

That does not really solve the problem. If I tell you "press A", do I mean the action button with big label A or the action button with small-print label A? Or maybe just the key A?

Because usual console don't have keyboard? A button label is made to differentiate button. That's why no button should have the same label.

It's still a non-issue. 

Nothing is an issue. We could also let the buttons void. And people would find a way to name them (ex: right button, up button).

But the best labeling have to be chosen.

Pyra is an Improvement of Pandora that's why we should choose what is the best. Pyra isn't Pandora, that's why we chose a name, logo etc.. it's also became modular and in these consoles' history, Pandora will look as a prototype.

Choose latin letters while they are already used is a nonsense.

It's not because I especially like Greek letters that I want them, it's because we have to choose the best labelling and Greek's letters look good and resonate with Pyra's identity.

 

[_wb_]

This really isn't an issue and it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled, because while playing you won't be looking at them anyway.

OK, I somewhat agree to that, but why then such a strong opinion on using Latin letters to label them?

If u say press the A "button" it's Very clear what he needs to press.

Not really. If it's originally a DOS/C64/Amiga game that is saying that, it may very well be the A keyboard key.

The only unambiguous way to refer to the two things labeled with A is by saying "the A keyboard key" and "the [A] action button", or something like that.

Even if "button" and "key" are enough, I do think it's annoying to have to explicitly mention what I mean. There is usually only limited space when you're making a help screen, and it helps a lot if you can use a single character (e.g. "Ω") per command instead of 8 or so (e.g. "B button").

In oral communication the extra word is not a big deal, but in written communication it sometimes is.

When I say standard buttons I do not mean the layout I mean the most common letters used as labels for gaming controls.


We can easily keep Pandora backwards compatibility and add 2 new buttons without any detrimental effect, we don't need special symbols to replace what already works.

Show me how. If you think this:


     Z


  Y  C


A  B


  X


does not have any "detrimental effect", you're wrong. To me, that looks like a cheap imitation Sega controller which is so cheap that they misplaced the A and X buttons.

 

[milkshake]

This really isn't an issue and it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled, because while playing you won't be looking at them anyway.

OK, I somewhat agree to that, but why then such a strong opinion on using Latin letters to label them?

If u say press the A "button" it's Very clear what he needs to press.

Not really. If it's originally a DOS/C64/Amiga game that is saying that, it may very well be the A keyboard key.The only unambiguous way to refer to the two things labeled with A is by saying "the A keyboard key" and "the [A] action button", or something like that.Even if "button" and "key" are enough, I do think it's annoying to have to explicitly mention what I mean. There is usually only limited space when you're making a help screen, and it helps a lot if you can use a single character (e.g. "Ω") per command instead of 8 or so (e.g. "B button").In oral communication the extra word is not a big deal, but in written communication it sometimes is.

When I say standard buttons I do not mean the layout I mean the most common letters used as labels for gaming controls.We can easily keep Pandora backwards compatibility and add 2 new buttons without any detrimental effect, we don't need special symbols to replace what already works.

Show me how. If you think this: Z Y CA B X does not have any "detrimental effect", you're wrong. To me, that looks like a cheap imitation Sega controller which is so cheap that they misplaced the A and X buttons.

The issue with you having to write the word "key" or "button" is purely your personal issue it works perfectly from a user point of view and they are they people you write software for are they not?

And I do not believe it looks like a cheep knock of Sega layout at all again that's your personal issue, stop thinking about your issues and think about the "users".

I do not think anyone (users) else will have issues with using common gaming button letters they will not overly care if it resembles a Sega controller or a snes controller. I really don't understand your issues as they don't effect anyone else but you and kiga.

You could also use the terms "type" and "press" to differentiate the actions you want the user to perform with keys/buttons

 

[Tenka]

I hope I was born a user, so that my opinion will count.

We need more suggestions.  These two ideas are great or suck and all, but let's not let the fear of an opposing side having the last word in which is best keep us from experimenting more.  Sorry I haven't thought of one yet myself.

 

[_wb_]

This really isn't an issue and it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled, because while playing you won't be looking at them anyway.

OK, I somewhat agree to that, but why then such a strong opinion on using Latin letters to label them?

If u say press the A "button" it's Very clear what he needs to press.

Not really. If it's originally a DOS/C64/Amiga game that is saying that, it may very well be the A keyboard key.The only unambiguous way to refer to the two things labeled with A is by saying "the A keyboard key" and "the [A] action button", or something like that.Even if "button" and "key" are enough, I do think it's annoying to have to explicitly mention what I mean. There is usually only limited space when you're making a help screen, and it helps a lot if you can use a single character (e.g. "Ω") per command instead of 8 or so (e.g. "B button").In oral communication the extra word is not a big deal, but in written communication it sometimes is.

When I say standard buttons I do not mean the layout I mean the most common letters used as labels for gaming controls.We can easily keep Pandora backwards compatibility and add 2 new buttons without any detrimental effect, we don't need special symbols to replace what already works.

Show me how. If you think this: Z Y CA B X does not have any "detrimental effect", you're wrong. To me, that looks like a cheap imitation Sega controller which is so cheap that they misplaced the A and X buttons.

The issue with you having to write the word "key" or "button" is purely your personal issue it works perfectly from a user point of view and they are they people you write software for are they not?


And I do not believe it looks like a cheep knock of Sega layout at all again that's your personal issue, stop thinking about your issues and think about the "users".


I do not think anyone (users) else will have issues with using common gaming button letters they will not overly care if it resembles a Sega controller or a snes controller. I really don't understand your issues as they don't effect anyone else but you and kiga.


You could also use the terms "type" and "press" to differentiate the actions you want the user to perform with keys/buttons

OK, so you are in favor of

    Z


  Y  C


A  B


  X

and calling them "buttons" to differentiate them from the same letters on the keyboard.

It's fine if that is your preference, just don't pretend that it is clearly and uncontroversially the only sane option. It's not.