Action button labels: poll 2 bis

[bzar]

So, a poll on the two new buttons?

 

[Saber]

Weird how people interpret things differently. At any rate, the two new buttons need to be labeled. This is where our focus should now be.

 

[moxie]

Well, I do repeat again: All these threads are, are possible input to the teams decision process. The whole idea of that one option or the other has "won" or "lost" or that there actually would be any point to, what Grench alluded, "redo them until {whatever option} wins", kind of shows that some people do somewhat overstate their role and importance. If ED wants, he might read through these and look at things before he decides, but he most certainly isn't bound to any result in any poll.

Anybody may focus on anything they like. If you want to focus on "the two new buttons", sure do. Those who want to focus on the perfect runic labels, go ahead.

So, a poll on the two new buttons?

I think we should go with Å and Ä. That will minimise the confusion, since it can't be mixed up with the keyboard labels

 

[Ziz]

I do not trust someone who want to stop a topic because people aren't agree with him.

A witness posted a chat log.Waiting for your apology.

However you tried to stop me stopping this senseless discussion, too. Just because you do not agree, that this discussion is senseless. How mean!

 Apology? Where did I insult you? Also if ED hadn't already read these discussions this is one more reason to conitnue.

You called me a liar because I said something you didn't like / didn't want to believe. But nevermind.

 

[Saber]

...

Anybody may focus on anything they like. If you want to focus on "the two new buttons", sure do. Those who want to focus on the perfect runic labels, go ahead.

People will do what they want.

As long as they realize it probably won't sway ED according to what was exchanged in that IRC log. No one disputes how they can use their time up. 

 

[moxie]

You called me a liar because I said something you didn't like / didn't want to believe.

No, he didn't. You did yourself (or rather, you put words in his mouth).

 

[Kiga]

You called me a liar because I said something you didn't like / didn't want to believe. But nevermind.

Now you are a liar.

 

[Ziz]

So, you demanded witnesses because you thought, I tell the truth?

Furthermore: Sorry, if it may appeared, that I want to command people, what to do with their time. Of course you can do whatever you want. I just wanted to make my point: This discussion is senseless. So in my opinion the time used in this thread is wasted. And yes, I am aware, that this includes my own posts.

 

[TrashyMG]

/facepalm

 

[WizardStan]

No, he didn't. You did yourself (or rather, you put words in his mouth).

It did seem pretty implicit, especially when followed up with

I do not trust someone who want to stop a topic because people aren't agree with him.

Not exactly calling him a liar, but Kiga is saying he can't simply trust Ziz at his word. It could be that Kiga is simply suggesting that Ziz is well meaning but very mistaken; given the context I doubt it though.

 

[Kiga]

So, you demanded witnesses because you thought, I tell the truth?

As I said because:

I do not trust someone who want to stop a topic because people aren't agree with him.

I am like that, so what?

 

[Grench]

[16:54:45 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> EvilDragon: Would you really print greek letters on the symbols if a community poll would have a majority? ^^
[16:59:05 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Ziz, Nope - did I ever say that?
[17:00:15 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> No, but they are polls and stuff in the board... So I just wondered, whether they even make sense. Obviously not.
[17:00:52 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> To be honest, I'm not sure if it makes sense changing the Pandora button layout anyways.
[17:01:12 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Whatever layout we choose, it will ALWAYS be different than some console you know.
[17:01:33 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> And if we change the layout, all Pandora homebrew games that tell you what button to press would be wrong as well.
[17:01:44 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> They were loooong discussions about this, EvilDragon. With Pros and Cons and much ignoring of arguments.
[17:01:45 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> So it wouldn't add anything but more work for developers.
[17:01:56 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Yeah, didn't follow them at all
[17:02:02 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> Keeping the old system + 2 extra buttons has a lot of votes.
[17:02:16 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Thats my favourite as well

I'm glad ED is in charge. He is, as usual, able to cut through and see a clear path to a functional reality.

Enough is enough with the Greek character & re-labeling buttons?

 

[_wb_]

Standard Pandora maps + CZ for the win.

+ something, at any rate. I'm kind of partial to U and V now. (+) and (-) were also suggested. C and Z gives me a weird non-symmetrical feel.

I think U and V look too much alike (in actual Latin it's the same thing). I agree that C and Z look bad. Maybe something symmetrical like M and W ?

Also, these are somewhat logical, with some imagination:


Z Y
A B
@ X

Z Y
A B
W X

But to be honest, even the starting point (Pandora ABXY) does not make a lot of sense to begin with, so trying to extend it into something that makes sense is kind of hopeless. It all looks ugly to me, and the "confusion between button and key" problem only gets bigger with more duplicate letters.

The backwards compatibility thing is a valid concern, but it's not like there are heaps of closed-source Pandora homebrew games with an author that is no longer around to maintain it. And even if there would be such a heap, just adding the A Y B labels in small-print to any non-Latin layout solves the problem too.

 

[moxie]

It is still not the same thing as "you called me a liar". And the quote didn't exactly substantiate what Ziz said, especially given the context of the quote (I.e. Ziz more or less saying "EEEeeeeeddd, you really, *really* wouldn't do that thing I don't like, would you now?"). So the doubt isn't entirely unfounded, not as in "Ziz is a liar", more like "Ziz is rather optimistic in his interpretations and asks leading questions".

But, the main thing: Demanding someone apologize for calling me a liar, when that someone quite obviously didn't do that, is not on.

 

[Kiga]

I'm glad ED is in charge. He is, as usual, able to cut through and see a clear path to a functional reality.

Enough is enough with the Greek character & re-labeling buttons?

If ED read to our arguments and is still against Greeks letters, I will be fine. But you should read it bettter:

[17:01:56 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Yeah, didn't follow them at all

It's normal that he want to stay like Pandora if he don't saw this layout issues and Greek letters advantages, that's why this topic was open, to make people give their opinions and ED be aware. So till ED aren't aware there is no reason to stop it.

 

[Neelix]

@_wb_ With that multiple labels idea I'm starting to get the impression that you've lost sight of the original objectives of changing the layout in the first place.

I can't see multiple labels on each button being either viable or desirable, and I think it wouldn't really solve any of the issues that prompted this subject in the first place.

I think that at most there should be one set of 'gaming' labels on the buttons themselves,  with perhaps the keyboard key functions associated with each  silk-screened on the case above or below it. (like you see on some TV remotes) 

The way I see it, If we do end up with buttons labelled with A,B,X, and/or Y then they need to be in the same places as they are on the Pandora.  Otherwise changing the order while keeping the same names would cause more problems than it solves. 

That being said If we move away from ABXY then we can make a new layout that makes more sense, and the existing Pandora layout based software can be treated as if it was just another emulated system with it's own layout.

While all solutions involving single Latin letters or representations of the numbers 0-9 conflict with other buttons on the device, I didn't see a single symbol based solution (and I include the Greek letters in that)  that didn't  involve having to teach users the names of the symbols.

That's why I still think the best compromise position is to use either simple words or alphanumeric combinations. That way, the button labels can be understood at a glance and specified in Ascii, and still not conflict with any other keys on the keyboard, or the gaming layout of any other system.  Also as mentioned previously Alphanumeric labels have the advantage of being consistent with the naming of both the shoulder buttons and the function keys.

I just had another oddball idea though. You could call the buttons:  Dr, ag, on, Box, Py and ra.

- Neelix

 

[Saber]

...

That's why I still think the best compromise position is to use either simple words or alphanumeric combinations. That way, the button labels can be understood at a glance and specified in Ascii, and still not conflict with any other keys on the keyboard, or the gaming layout of any other system.  Also as mentioned previously Alphanumeric labels have the advantage of being consistent with the naming of both the shoulder buttons and the function keys.

I just had another oddball idea though. You could call the buttons:  Dr, ag, on, Box, Py and ra.

- Neelix

The buttons will be smaller so the room to place simple words or multiple lettering or numbers is unlikely.

 

[Caine]

The two new buttons should obviously be F and U.

<edit>Disclaimer: Not aimed at anyone and not intended to be taken seriously.</edit>

 

[Neelix]

The buttons will be smaller so the room to place simple words or multiple lettering or numbers is unlikely.

Not that much smaller.  Considering how many symbols have been squeezed onto the keyboard keys on the pandora, I have no doubt that a simple two character label could be made perfectly legible,  especially if colour is employed.

- Neelix

 

[Saber]

The buttons will be smaller so the room to place simple words or multiple lettering or numbers is unlikely.

Not that much smaller.  Considering how many symbols have been squeezed onto the keyboard keys on the pandora, I have no doubt that a simple two character label could be made perfectly legible,  especially if colour is employed.

- Neelix

I have reservations about putting tiny labels on teensy-ish buttons. Stylizing whatever domiciles the two new button's labels could be employed here to infuse some originality.