Action button labels

[Kiga]

To me there is no doubt, Greeks letters are clearly the best choice. I don't get why some people are against it.
 

Is my impression right that having English as your first language makes you less likely to like greek symbols?

Maybe it's a portion of the response

In my opinion those who are against it's because they aren't accostumed to it, but I'm sure that they will like it once accostumed.
I hope ED will take the time to think about it and not simply take the comfortable choice to stay as the pandora.

Why are you quoting me without adding anything to the discussion?

It's literally +1.

 

[_wb_]

Why are you quoting me without adding anything to the discussion?

It's literally +1.

 Well thank you, but maybe it's better to use the "Like" button for that... :unsure:

Anyway, I don't think Greek letters are clearly the best choice, there are good arguments pro and contra many of the proposals in this thread. Greek letters are not a perfect solution, it does have some disadvantages too. However, I think some of those disadvantages can be compensated for, by adding colors to the buttons:

With colors, even if you don't know the names of the Greek letters and you refuse to refer to them by shape, you can still just say "the red button". Only color-blind people are forced to know the Greek letter names or describe their shapes.

With colors, even if you are in an ASCII-only context, you can use color to describe the buttons. Only a black and white ASCII-only application has a problem, and even then you could write RED (or CIRCLE, or OMEGA) to describe Ω.

 

[Caine]

With colors, even if you are in an ASCII-only context, you can use color to describe the buttons. Only a black and white ASCII-only application has a problem, and even then you could write RED (or CIRCLE, or OMEGA) to describe Ω.

The problem is that their is no readily available discovery mechanism to learn what they represent (by the way, the same arguments holds for some of my proposals just the same).You may not even know that they are greek letters and wouldn't know what to google.

You cannot write RED or CIRCLE or OMEGA to describe Ω. For instance if a developer chooses RED then a colorblind person doesn't understand.

If he chooses OMEGA then whoever doesn't know OMEGA will not understand. If he writes CIRCLE then people might not link circle to omega (after all it is not a circle).

Hence he will need to write the red circular omega button.

I am not sure how serious this problem is as the vast majority of the applications can just say press (Ω).

 

[Kiga]

Well thank you, but maybe it's better to use the "Like" button for that... :unsure:

 
Anyway, I don't think Greek letters are clearly the best choice, there are good arguments pro and contra many of the proposals in this thread. Greek letters are not a perfect solution, it does have some disadvantages too. However, I think some of those disadvantages can be compensated for, by adding colors to the buttons:

No need to thank me, I just give my opinion. I never notice like button or likes. And since people repeat over and over same things on this thread I thought, when something new comes it have to be noticed. But I admitt that  only quote isn't clear.

I think that Greek letters are clearly the best choice, of course every options have disadvantages, but disadvantages it have is nothing compared to others.

There is only matter of outer elements:   some people don't know how to name it, difficult to type

Wheareas others option have LOGIC issue:  there is already letters on keyboard so why use it again, no relashionship with pandora/pyra like cards symbols.

Superficial issue like "some people don't know how to name it" don't matter to me, because people will adapt. At the end of the day, you will have your console and use it no matter what symbols on key, but logic and consistency have to be followed to make the choice. No matter outer element especially as they are such weak.

The only real argument against greek's letters is beauty matter. And they aren't enough complexe to be considered ugly, that's why I think people will like them once accustomed, because of consistency.

 

[Fzero]

I haven't noticed wear on my Pandora keyboard button labels yet (despite quite intense use), so if a similar technique would be used for the action buttons it would be fine I think.


Something more readable and less dirt-collecting than the labels on the Pandora action buttons would be nice though.

This is why I think XB1 style is good idea.

The colour is clear but not too toy looking as the main button is black.


The coloured letters/symbols are inside, so won't wear off and the button remains smooth to touch.


I guess these are made as a black button, the coloured letter on top of that, then a thin transparent piece of plastic on top of that?


Not sure if costly process or that much more effort to buy and use these style, but I like it

 

[_wb_]

I haven't noticed wear on my Pandora keyboard button labels yet (despite quite intense use), so if a similar technique would be used for the action buttons it would be fine I think.


Something more readable and less dirt-collecting than the labels on the Pandora action buttons would be nice though.

This is why I think XB1 style is good idea.

The colour is clear but not too toy looking as the main button is black.


The coloured letters/symbols are inside, so won't wear off and the button remains smooth to touch.


I guess these are made as a black button, the coloured letter on top of that, then a thin transparent piece of plastic on top of that?


Not sure if costly process or that much more effort to buy and use these style, but I like it

Yes, I like that too. But less glossy please.

 

[Fzero]

Yeah, ideally, I'd like that style... But matte, with thinner characters too

 

[Exophase]

With colors, even if you don't know the names of the Greek letters and you refuse to refer to them by shape, you can still just say "the red button". Only color-blind people are forced to know the Greek letter names or describe their shapes.

I have the common type of color blindness (red/green) but I can still easily distinguish most reds from most greens - if you're careful with the colors and keep them very pure and distinct it's not hard to tell them apart. I'm sure I could easily differentiate and identify a good red, green, blue, yellow, cyan, and magenta for instance.

I really just don't like having colors there from an aesthetic point of view, makes it look more tacky to me. But it's not a big deal.

 

[Granitehead]

Would be nice if it's cheap enough, but I don't know about colors. We are talking about a device which is also going to be used for business, keep that in mind.

 

[_wb_]

Something like this:

 

[milkshake]

I really hope this idea of greek symbols does not end up in the final product :-(

 

[_wb_]

I really hope this idea of greek symbols does not end up in the final product :-(

Why? What is your proposal?

 

[TrashyMG]

I really hope this idea of greek symbols does not end up in the final product :-(

I'm not too fond of it either.. 

Why? What is your proposal?

Stick to the original Pandora lettering scheme to keep consistency.. if a 6 button layout comes to be, keep with the original Pandora scheme and choose two other letters for the other buttons and call it a day. I heard C and Z are popular.

 

[God Ginrai]

BTW, have I missed the Hiragana proposal?

 You haven't. I've been a bit busy, so I haven't had time to take a look at which characters would be best. I'm trying to determine hiragana characters that will be easy for people to refer to by what they look like.

I haven't noticed wear on my Pandora keyboard button labels yet (despite quite intense use), so if a similar technique would be used for the action buttons it would be fine I think.

I hope by similar technique you mean letters under a clear layer. Because buttons as soft as the current keymat would make for shitty gaming controls.

Also, Caine raises a very good point about the colored Greek letters idea. That doesn't actually help solve the problem, because if someone says the "red" button, someone who is colorblind may not know which one they are talking about. So then they would have to say the "red omega". But if the person explaining doesn't know it's called omega, then he can't communicate it. Colored letters does not have this problem, since these exist on anyone's keyboard, so they can easily just say the "A" button or the "G" button.

-God Ginrai

 

[milkshake]

Well they could use the term "key" for a letter on the keyboard and the term "button" for a lettered gaming button. No one could really get confused over them.

We need to stop looking for solutions to problems that don't exist.

 

[Fzero]

Would be nice if it's cheap enough, but I don't know about colors. We are talking about a device which is also going to be used for business, keep that in mind.

I agree, sort of, I do think we should have colours, but I too think because of this reason we want it to look as far from a 'toy' as we can.

Using _wb_ style of characters, although I would prefer English ones myself....but that aside, I think the characters need to be very thin. Which would probably be ok for those using it for business too, as wouldn't be too blatant.

I'm thinking this kind of thickness of character:

 

[SNESFAN]

One thing I don't see brought up is how is your end solution going to be handled in normal conversation. I find explaining button mapping for psx to be rather a pain. Square triangle circle square doesn't quite roll of the fingers when typing as abxy. If the characters are in another language then what words represent the Greek letters or symbols. Are they easy to remember, or are people going to be referring to them as "that weird shaped one in the top right"

 

[Fzero]

A couple of us brought that issue up with the chess symbols idea, and I think that applies to the Greek chars to me too.

Which is why I'd like abxy or 1234 type standard myself.

As well as typing, it rolls of the tongue easier verbally too for me

 

[Caine]

Square triangle circle square doesn't quite roll of the fingers when typing as abxy. If the characters are in another language then what words represent the Greek letters or symbols. Are they easy to remember, or are people going to be referring to them as "that weird shaped one in the top right"

Right. I have no problem remembering Pi, Delta and Omega. But the chi, psi and phi I have to look up every time as I rarely ever use these.My playstation like semantic buttons are probably amongst the worst offender of this as most people do not even know the playstation button semantics (i.e. triangle=viewpoint, square=menu, circle=yes, cross=no).

I'm thinking this kind of thickness of character:

Spoiler

Yes, I have no problem with the colour like that. The example of what not to do is the XBOX controller.<edit>Hah, funny. Microsoft has also changed that themselves for the xbone.</edit>

 

[milkshake]

Vote no on proposition 24 (Greek letters)