Action button labels

[Neelix]

Is it really that confusing to use similar characters? I mean, you'll only do it once if at all. If a game says 'Press B' and B doesn't work on the keyboard, then you'll try B on the face buttons (and vice versa). Hardly complex stuff. Yet there's umpteen pages discussing glyphs. Bonkers.

"Ok now press X to save... No, not that X!"

"Now you tell me... what just happened?"

"You pressed X to exit"

- Neelix

 

[God Ginrai]

Is it really that confusing to use similar characters? I mean, you'll only do it once if at all. If a game says 'Press B' and B doesn't work on the keyboard, then you'll try B on the face buttons (and vice versa). Hardly complex stuff. Yet there's umpteen pages discussing glyphs. Bonkers.

"Ok now press X to save... No, not that X!"

"Now you tell me... what just happened?"

"You pressed X to exit"

- Neelix

I call shenanigans. No application author will allow that key config to happen. Even on the Pandora, most apps that use the keyboard for extra functions assign quit to some combination involving Q.

-God Ginrai

 

[Neelix]

I wouldn't rule it out... There is no standardised key binding on the pandora, and not all devs think the same way. A dev may also have had a different keyboard layout in mind. I know I encountered X as Exit several times in my DOS days, and If one of those used PGDN for a game function (also not unusual) something like that could happen.

The point though is that different keys may have different functions, and pressing the wrong one may not be so easily recoverable. Press the wrong button too many times in Ziz's snowman and you quickly find yourself stuck.

I've also encountered at least one game on the repo that had quit on the gaming buttons, so experimenting with which buttons did what in that game didn't get me very far)

- Neelix

 

[Tenka]

Labeling buttons with colors also messes up us later making themed versions with different colors everywhere.  I don't like the playing card symbol buttons because there aren't enough of them, and I would rather all six of the game buttons appear equal, none being "those special two."

I think I still have another page to read through, but is anyone strongly opposed to the dice buttons?  Remember to say why.

 

[Neelix]

Just that the dice are conceptually still number buttons so you still have the same problem as with using letters. Does "Press 6" mean number 6 or dice 6?

- Neelix

 

[God Ginrai]

I wouldn't rule it out... There is no standardised key binding on the pandora, and not all devs think the same way. A dev may also have had a different keyboard layout in mind. I know I encountered X as Exit several times in my DOS days, and If one of those used PGDN for a game function (also not unusual) something like that could happen.

And? If it says: "Press Pg Dn to Save" no one is going to press X on the keyboard.

The point though is that different keys may have different functions, and pressing the wrong one may not be so easily recoverable. Press the wrong button too many times in Ziz's snowman and you quickly find yourself stuck.

I haven't played Ziz's snowman, but I've played plenty of games where you didn't know the buttons at the beginning and experimenting got me killed. So what? I started up again and then knew what the buttons did. Making mistakes is an important way to learn.

By seeking and blundering we learn.

I've also encountered at least one game on the repo that had quit on the gaming buttons, so experimenting with which buttons did what in that game didn't get me very far)

 That's not true, you learned where quit was, and then you never made that mistake again for that game.

Labeling buttons with colors also messes up us later making themed versions with different colors everywhere.  I don't like the playing card symbol buttons because there aren't enough of them, and I would rather all six of the game buttons appear equal, none being "those special two."

I think I still have another page to read through, but is anyone strongly opposed to the dice buttons?  Remember to say why.

If you label them R and B then you can easily label your new color buttons that way just as easily. I don't see anything wrong with that. Also, what's wrong with a "special two" buttons? The N64 and Xbox both did it. And they aren't really that special since they would be the same size and shape as all of the other buttons.

I actually support dice buttons. If I were to rank the options I approve of in the order I want them, it would probably be:

• Suits
• ABC XYZ
• Dice

And if I were to rank them in the order that is most likely to be accepted, it would probably be:

• ABC XYZ
• Dice
• Suits

-God Ginrai

 

[Rivaan]

Just that the dice are conceptually still number buttons so you still have the same problem as with using letters. Does "Press 6" mean number 6 or dice 6?

- Neelix

You could say "Press D6", in order to avoid confusion with the regular numbers. Even with two characters per button, it would still be easier to type than copying and pasting Greek symbols or card suits. And if you had more than one button-press in succession, it could be referred to as, for example, D254.

 

[Tenka]

I concur with Rivaan's succession shorthand.  Dice buttons are as simple as numbers without having to be confused with numbers.  I think most of us have used dice roll generators, so D# registers quickly.  And dice are classic gaming, even if you want to appeal to a wider audience than people who play video games at all, the game buttons are definitely game buttons.

 

[God Ginrai]

You could say "Press D6", in order to avoid confusion with the regular numbers. Even with two characters per button, it would still be easier to type than copying and pasting Greek symbols or card suits. And if you had more than one button-press in succession, it could be referred to as, for example, D254.

 I like the shorthand. I will point out that unlike Greek characters, the suits in a deck of cards are generally known by name, so they don't need to be copied and pasted. But I will agree that typing D1 is a lot faster than typing the name of any of the suits.

And dice are classic gaming, even if you want to appeal to a wider audience than people who play video games at all, the game buttons are definitely game buttons.

Watch out, some people here consider any gaming that isn't a common video game archetype to be unrelated to the Pyra. Get ready for irrational flak.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

There is too little visual difference between the different dice symbols in my opinion. You have to be able to quickly match a symbol on your screen with a symbol on a button.
 
Compare:
 
A  B  C  X  Y  Z
 
Π  Ω  Δ  X  Φ  Ψ

⚀  ⚁  ⚂  ⚃  ⚄  ⚅

 

[God Ginrai]

There is too little visual difference between the different dice symbols in my opinion. You have to be able to quickly match a symbol on your screen with a symbol on a button.

Compare:

A  B  C  X  Y  Z

Π  Ω  Δ  X  Φ  Ψ

⚀  ⚁  ⚂  ⚃  ⚄  ⚅

Who looks down at their Gamepad when doing a QTE? That's the only time you would need to "quickly" match the symbol on screen to the symbol on the button. Also, the only reason you can't quickly match the ones you posted are because they are so tiny.

It's quite easy to match D1...D6 with:

-God Ginrai

 

[comradekingu]

The outer border of the button is the square. only need dots.

While roman numerals is a clever way of reenacting, which is where is only an inherried trait.

I think its easier to keep track of 1-6

 

[_wb_]

Still, I'm not a big fan of unary notation.

 

[God Ginrai]

Still, I'm not a big fan of unary notation.

That's your problem. I don't see people trying to reinvent the die with decimal numbers instead of the standard pips. It's proven to work just fine. The pattern of the pips are easily recognized and the pips are easily counted.

-God Ginrai

 

[Tenka]

I'm used to the dice dot shapes enough to know which number each is at a glance, but even if I weren't, I believe that the only button indication that users are likely to read frequently would be D1, D2 and so on.  We don't keep looking at the buttons after we know where they are.

 

[_wb_]

Counting to 6 is not the problem, quickly finding a button between 21 dots is a potential problem -- essentially you have 21 "dot" symbols, not 6 distinct symbols.

Associating meaning to generic labels like numbers is also a problem. If the meaning is derived from the button position, then the label does not matter, but if the meaning of the button corresponds to the button label, it's nicer to have something more than D1-6 to work with.

 

[WizardStan]

Or if the "D" shorthand is confusing...

(.\)

\)

(.:\)

:\)

.:\)

::\)

garrr, how to not be smiley? Ignore the \s

 

[God Ginrai]

Counting to 6 is not the problem, quickly finding a button between 21 dots is a potential problem -- essentially you have 21 "dot" symbols, not 6 distinct symbols.

 No, you have 6 patterned groups of pips. All you have to do is look for the correct pattern. It's just like looking for a letter or any other symbol.

Associating meaning to generic labels like numbers is also a problem. If the meaning is derived from the button position, then the label does not matter, but if the meaning of the button corresponds to the button label, it's nicer to have something more than D1-6 to work with.

D1-6 works just fine, you're just making something out of nothing.

-God Ginrai

 

[Fzero]

I think there is little confusion if dice buttons were used, if laid out as I did in that screenshot mock up... where essentially is is going left to right, top to bottom.

[1] [2] [3]

[4] [5] [6]

If I was asked to quickly hit button [3] then [6] ... or if I was asked to quickly hit button [D3] then [D6]

It would be easy, wouldn't really need to even think about it.

It's just a matter of familierising yourself with the layout initially, as you have to do with any gamepad at first, even when I first got my Playstation, I had to take note that [Triangle] was up top and [Cross] was at bottom... then it is just second nature

 

[Granitehead]

I also made a suggestion earlier which was completely ignored:

What about point/circle, line/X, triangle, square, pentagon, hexagon? That would be a more or less mathematically logical sequence (one corner to six corners).

I could very well imagine that that's how the Playstation buttons came into existence. "What about point, line, triangle, square?" "No, point and line are no good... But what if we make the point a circle and the line an X?"