Action button labels: poll 3 (final poll?)

[SNESFAN]

I can see lots of accidental c button presses with the bottom right, that setup favors the action buttons being located on the left of the device. I think it was fine in the first mockup.

 

[levi]

I think it's one of those things that'll have to be mocked up and tried to be honest. With both buttons on the left, it seems to me that the A button is getting crowded out, and you'll have to tap it with the very top of your thumb to avoid chording with either of the new buttons or X or Y.


Perhaps, after consideration, there may still not be enough space for 6 buttons, and we'd be better off with a good 4 rather than a compromised 6.

 

[_wb_]

Inspired by this (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemical_symbol)

I like most of the proposals, but these triangular element symbols from the elements page you linked best represent what I think is important: they almost perfectly represent both Klumpen's abstract North/East/South/West buttons (if Air and Earth are suitably rotated) and the Home/End/etc default key bindings. I'd think something like that is even better than a set of nice symbols (though I'd happily vote for the element symbols).

I made this:

Source: http://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~jon.sneyers/tmp/pyra_elements_3.dia

The EARTH and AIR/WIND symbols are modified/improved too.

 

[iprice]

_wb_ I really like those. The triangle iterations are cool too.

I've seen a better wind symbol, but it wouldn't show the letter Y as clearly as yours. Unfortunately my GoogleFu is letting me down now.

It was like a curlicue of smoke/cloud. Looked cool, but wouldn't fit the lettering like yours.

It was similar to this one -

But the wind was the other way up and looked better than this one (it didn't have the hands either).

 

[God Ginrai]

Here is a version with C/Del on the right, below B:

Mirror that and you will have one of WizardStan's original suggestions, which at least somewhat follows the natural arc of the thumb unlike ED's horrible choice.

-God Ginrai

 

[Ziz]

Which kind of mirroring?

X axis?

Y axis?

point reflection?

 

[levi]

Does it matter? Reflection by either the central horizontal or vertical axes leads to the two small buttons in the bottom left and top right locations (where the PCB mounting hole is proposed to be). Point reflection, as I understand it wouldn't move the buttons about at all, just shuffle them into a different order.

 

[_wb_]

_wb_ I really like those. The triangle iterations are cool too.

I've seen a better wind symbol, but it wouldn't show the letter Y as clearly as yours. Unfortunately my GoogleFu is letting me down now.

It was like a curlicue of smoke/cloud. Looked cool, but wouldn't fit the lettering like yours.

It was similar to this one -

But the wind was the other way up and looked better than this one (it didn't have the hands either).

A swirly thing could work, or maybe just a cloud. Clouds are technically water, not air, but I think it may still work as an icon for AIR.

Maybe it's time to ask ED how feasible it would be to have this kind of color (I'm using white + another color on each button). This concept could also work without color, but I think the color helps a lot to identify the elements.

We should also ask ED if it is possible to have the button below B, to the right of X.

 

[levi]

Remind me again why identifying the elements is important? It's a cute idea in the context of this thread, but I never seriously considered spending money to put it on the real buttons.

 

[iprice]

There's no cost involved in other people creating/offering ideas... It also stops the Latin/Greek arguments, if only for a while

 

[ThinkPad]

I really hope ED will trash the hole "idea"

1. the area is overcrowded with buttons. As I mentioned before, there is no gaming controller on the planet with this button layout, ask yourself why...

2. this colorful labels will make Pyra to look like a toy instead to look like a tool.

It is simple as that.

 

[God Ginrai]

1. the area is overcrowded with buttons. As I mentioned before, there is no gaming controller on the planet with this button layout, ask yourself why...

This is why EvilDragon should use a normal 6-button layout.

2. this colorful labels will make Pyra to look like a toy instead to look like a tool.

Color doesn't have to mean "toy". There are plenty of ways to design things to make use of color and still be useful.

-God Ginrai

 

[ThinkPad]

^ I support the idea of normal (SEGA-similar) 6-button layout on 100% from the beginning.

but if the space does not allow it, then I prefer the original clean Pandora/SNES design.

I don't care about the labels as long as the whole thing do not look like pajamas.  

 

[levi]

As far as I know there's no system out there with 6 buttons *and* four shoulder buttons. If the buttons can't be fitted in a natural manner, I'd be willing to use two of the shoulders to make up the difference (even if I could never get to grips with SFZ3-upper GBA's controls).

 

[ekianjo]

This is why EvilDragon should use a normal 6-button layout.

So, since nobody has jumped in frozen water with a boulder attached to their feet, ED should do it too i guess? That's the only reason you can find to justify your proposition ?  

Color doesn't have to mean "toy". There are plenty of ways to design things to make use of color and still be useful.

Yeah, like the gamecube? Oops, it did look like a toy.  

I really hope ED will trash the whole "idea"

That's the problem when you design stuff with polls the whole time. You end up with a Homer Car. 

That's something you learn about design from day 1: It's not about making the majority happy. It's about making something that makes sense from A to Z. 

 

[ekianjo]

Remind me again why identifying the elements is important? It's a cute idea in the context of this thread, but I never seriously considered spending money to put it on the real buttons.

This thread has derailed a looooooong time ago. Now it's in a space where people design stuff for people who don't exist in the first place.  

 

[_wb_]

Remind me again why identifying the elements is important? It's a cute idea in the context of this thread, but I never seriously considered spending money to put it on the real buttons.

Why would it be more expensive to put element icons on the buttons than to put other symbols there? Or what do you mean with "spending money"?

Anyway, I don't really care if it's going to be Greek or elemental Latin or something else, as long as it is not just "pure Latin" that can be confused with keyboard keys. I kind of like those elements because they correspond to North/West/East/South (cf. Klumpens proposal), have alchemical symbols (the triangles) that work well for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, and it's original while well-known. Identifying the elements is important if you want to be able to refer to e.g. the [EARTH] button or the [AIR] button and have people understand you. In games you would typically show an image of the button, so color and clearly distinguishable icon shapes can help a lot. And no, color does not automatically make everything look like a toy -- I agree that it's something we have to keep in mind, but in my opinion, color does add functionality (it makes the buttons easier to remember / communicate / distinguish) and I don't want to sacrifice functionality to form.

^ I support the idea of normal (SEGA-similar) 6-button layout on 100% from the beginning.

but if the space does not allow it, then I prefer the original clean Pandora/SNES design.

Well space does not allow it. I still want the extra buttons, if only to get dedicated Insert/Delete keys. I don't care how it looks, as long as the extra buttons don't make it harder to press the original 4 buttons.

Also note that the Pandora and the SNES layouts are not identical: Pandora is YABX while SNES is XYAB (so all buttons have a different label), and on the Pandora the buttons are arranged like the dpad directions while on the SNES the top/bottom buttons are closer to one another than the left/right buttons.

How about Π Ω Δ χ with alchemical element symbols to refer to WATER/FIRE/AIR/EARTH, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn and West/East/North/South ?

 

[_jr_]

Remind me again why identifying the elements is important? It's a cute idea in the context of this thread, but I never seriously considered spending money to put it on the real buttons.

This thread has derailed a looooooong time ago. Now it's in a space where people design stuff for people who don't exist in the first place.

The button labels may be insignificant, but it is perfectly feasible and low cost to change them, provided we can find something better than A/B/X/Y. There are several reasons (of subjective importance) to believe it could be possible (A/B/X/Y not even hinting at the key bindings, similarity to the identically labeled keyboard keys, dissimilarity to well known and established A/B/X/Y based layouts, A/B/X/Y being rather dull, main benefit of keeping the layout is 'only' backwards compatibility). While it obviousy isn't as easy as some of us thought at the beginning, that IMO doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying. It seems more reasonable to me than spending time on other hardware features that have significant costs in terms of board space, design time, and BOM, but for which it is clear after a short discussion that they are not in the definitive-must-have category for most people.


To reasonably indicate keybindings while keeping maximum backwards compatibilty it could just be some triangle shapes around the A/B/X/Y labels. To make the Pyra stand out slightly more, colored element symbols are a nice concept. Combining them like _wb_ has might give us the benefit of both (I think so), but could also be too much. Just take a step back and think about what could be an improvement.


Edit: fixed quoting

 

[ekianjo]

How about Π Ω Δ χ with alchemical element symbols to refer to WATER/FIRE/AIR/EARTH

There's a reason why people don't do that on buttons usually.

Buttons have to be:

- recognizable 

- referable

- functional (enough space between them, so that they can be pressed precisely at the right time)

Greek Letters:

- most people don't know how to read them. 

- You'll run into problems in applications/games to refer to them (no unicode support in certain apps, etc...)

- people don't want to learn new stuff just to press buttons

Elements:

- most people won't have a clue what they are in the first place because they will look alien

- same problems to represent them in applications to give directions to the player

- people don't want to learn new stuff just to press buttons

 

The reason why Sony had a great idea with the PS1 pad is that they used very simple, UNIVERSAL symbols. A round is a round in every culture, a cross is a cross in every culture, and so on. These are geometric standards. Greek letters are not universal. Elements and elements representations are not universal. 

 

East/west stuff is going to be confusing as well, because it gives a sense of "direction" while some buttons should be neutral in that regard since they will execute an action that has nothing to do with the direction pressed. That's why it won't work either. Or it will feel awkward.

 

So it's better to stick to what's actually readable and identifiable for most people, which is the standards A,B, X,Y or stuff like that. 

 

I appreciate the intent to innovate everywhere possible, but sometimes we don't realize that what we propose is worse than what we intend to replace. 

 

[Ziz]

Does it matter? Reflection by either the central horizontal or vertical axes leads to the two small buttons in the bottom left and top right locations (where the PCB mounting hole is proposed to be). Point reflection, as I understand it wouldn't move the buttons about at all, just shuffle them into a different order.

Yeah, this was stupid, you are right. However my point was: Top right isn't possible... So I wonder, how he would like to mirror...