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It's all white!

Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm waiting for the heatsinks so I can test the different cooling ideas. Should arrive within the next few days.
    4GB Memory timing - but that should be mostly it hardware wise, yes :)
     
  2. guacamole

    guacamole Optimist

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    4GB version is currently 97.8% of all orders, would be nice to have some attention given to it ;)

    Would be nice to have an option to run unthrottled with fan, or throttled with fan off. More choice is better :)
     
  3. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    All the devices I have with fans can't run unthrottled even with the fan spun up to 100%, they can only run hotter for a bit longer, so I'd expect similar from the Pyra.

    That's all devices except for an old Pentium 3 which I think mainly spins up its fans to cool the hard disc. That CPU doesn't have a scalable clock as far as I know.
     
  4. Letalis Sonus

    Letalis Sonus Very Active Member

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    ...except that near all modern smartphones don't use LCDs at all, among the cheap crap are only few "modern" upper class ones to be found.

    OLED is an entirely different technology that works without any kind of liquid crystals - its organic nature comes with a whole can of different issues.
     
  5. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    I think I understand the concept being presented. It is a different concept for what would be a different device with similar feature results. It's being presented as, "Hey, we could theoretically cook an egg this way too," and not directed as a suggested change to the current menu/product/project.

    Having the SoC directly interfaced to an aluminum lid would be both a heat sink and a heat dissipation point. With the SoC throttled to 120*C, the lid would not even approach anything remotely near 70*C. On a hot sunny day it would struggle to reach 40*C. We can dig into the thermodynamics if you want, but the idea itself is sound.

    The display board would have backlights on one side (front) and the SoC on the other (back). This would reduce the board count. The LCD would be separated from the SoC by the display board itself. With that big heat sink & dissipator (aluminum lid) sucking heat out the other side, it should not get overly warm on the display side. In this concept the heat gets -removed-.

    One USB 3.0 -connection-, not cable from the lid to the base. This could/would still be a twisted through-hinge design. It would also carry the power for the display & SoC from the base to the lid - so it would have all of the USB 3.0 connections plus a couple of thicker power leads - though this is included in the USB 3.0 Powered-B specification. This makes 11 leads through the hinge which is far fewer than the Pandora had.

    Total bandwidth to the base would be restricted to the 5 gigabits per second of the USB 3.0 connection. By the time this idea could come to fruition USB 3.1 Gen 2 specs might be realized which would be 10 gigabits per second.

    The base would need to contain one or more hubs. A USB hub does not necessarily have to be inefficient.

    USB 1.0 equivalency 1.5Mbps connections (2):
    keyboard & gamepads
    left nub (joystick1) + right nub (joystick2)

    USB 2.0 equivalency 480Mbps connections (3):
    WiFi
    Bluetooth 3
    USB 2.0 port left (could get upgraded to 3.0)
    USB 2.0 port right (could get upgraded to 3.0)

    USB 3.0 equivalency 5Gbps connections (4):
    microUSB 3.0 (Or USB C) connector
    SDXC left 100MB/s = 800Mbps
    SDXC right 100MB/s = 800Mbps
    microSDXC 100MB/s = 800Mbps

    1.5Mbps * 2 + 480Mbps * 3 + 800Mbps * 3 = 3363Mbps.

    This design could run everything BUT the HDMI output over a single USB 3.0 through hinge connection, though when using the USB 3.0 on the base some throttling could occur.

    USB 3.0 is pretty darn fast.

    All hypothetical though - and only a thought exercise and not a critique over current design. But - I consider the design feasible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
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  6. Eight Bit

    Eight Bit Advanced Member

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    I read in some previous post that @hns was going to take some time this week to check different timings to get it to work, let's hope he works it out and green light can be given for mass production start
    :p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a::p&|a:
     
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  7. Letalis Sonus

    Letalis Sonus Very Active Member

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    The screen generates heat as well, I wouldn't underestimate that.
     
  8. Eight Bit

    Eight Bit Advanced Member

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    It would basically be a phone with a keyboard on it, stop it! :-#
     
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  9. PowerGod

    PowerGod Advanced Member

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    Just touch it so you'll dissipate !! :p
     
  10. Splintercat

    Splintercat Member

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    The other issue with metal cases is that it can interfere with wireless pretty badly. If you look closely on many modern phones that have mostly aluminum, you'll usually spot an area that is just covered in plastic for the wireless antennas.

    I seem to remember that the Pandora's antenna is up behind the screen. Lots of laptops will put the antenna around the plastic bezel near the screen.

    I agree with @Grench that the design of putting the cpu up behind the screen is feasible. Cell phones do show that can work. Though cell phone and tablet design is also driven by trying to make a device as thin as possible, which necessitates some trade-offs. I think if one were to make a device like what @oskda is proposing, it'd likely end up looking like a tiny version of an old ASUS transformer, or a Microsoft Surface. The other possibility is that it would end up looking like what most people can have now, where you have a phone, and you can use a usb adapter to spit out USB and HDMI, and then use a bluetooth keyboard or game controller.

    I think how the Pyra and Pandora are designed are better suited for their function, making the screen heavier would make it harder to keep the screen at an angle, and would likely strain your hands and wrists more. I have an old Asus transformer, and even through the keyboard has a giant battery in it, it's still really top heavy, and doesn't function very well as a laptop.
     
  11. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    That's true, but ED found it slow to unthread and rethread every time he took a Pandora apart and put one together. One of the design considerations behind the Pyra was to make it as quick and painless to assemble and repair, so he can do a lot more in one day, or do more of his other 4.5 jobs when repairing the odd unit. The wifi antenna is towards the bottom left of the main board underside (or bottom right as you hold the assembled unit in your hands), I think. This is also the reason we have two RGB LEDs on the lid rather than six one-colour LEDS on the spine like on the Pandora, and half of the lid inner is held in by screws rather than clips all the way round.
     
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  12. oskda

    oskda Member

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    I suppose you are right about HDMI, so HDMI conection could sit in upper case part (same as internal microSD), but all other items can sit in lower case part connected by USB 3.0.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 19, 2017 ---
    If you move battery up, you don't solve 2 problems:

    1/ Heat in your hands produced by CPU/SOC.

    2/ You lost big aluminum heatsink to dissipate CPU/SOC heat.

    With a clamshell design we have to parts (contrary to most actual smartphones), and it could be used for better heat dissipation and to better protection to battery, but actual Pyra design doesn't take advantage of that different design.
     
  13. klapse

    klapse Central Scrutinizer

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    Maybe you should put the battery in the lid as well...
     
  14. elwing

    elwing Rabbit Addict

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    That's a bad idea ergonomically... Except if you also put the keyboard and the gaming control on the screen and get completely rid of the bottom part... Even if you kept the battery on the bottom, with the sturdier hinge and the big battery to avoid that the pyra caps, you'll end up with a device weighting more than 600gr, that or you'll get a device that you can't just place open on a table...
    And anyway, while these discussions are interesting, they are for off-topic, there's no way such changes could take place without setting the Pyra back for years, with Ed probably filling for bankruptcy...
     
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  15. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    Agreed that this entire alternate reality design idea conversation would be better suited to nearly any other area other than 'News'. I don't think it needs to go all the way to 'Off Topic', but could probably live in the 'Pyra - General' area. If a moderator wants to parse it all out of this News thread, it would probably be a good thing.
     
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  16. FBnil

    FBnil ¡sɥʇuoɯ oʍʇ uı ɐɹʎԀ

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    It would be nice to have a dcell/watch battery to keep the internal clock ticking. I often need to resynch the time when the rubber doesnt hold the battery steady on the Pandora. Pyra is going to have a better fit, so that not a problem anymore.
    But how about this alternate-reality idea: screen doubles as a solar charger
     
  17. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    That's true. I've just had the back off my Pandora to figure out why my R trigger fails to work now (it seems the switch itself has just died) and had been trying out a few new roms (including the Rayman prototype from the other thread and Gish), and now I should probably go back and check I haven't made a few files and directories with a presumably 1970 timestamp.
     
  18. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    I wonder how cell phones query the local tower to check the time...?
     
  19. oskda

    oskda Member

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    Thank you very much for your extensive answer. Now I see it is more complex I thought.

    The difference is between a big heatsink in the lid or in the bottom part is simple: we hold and use Pyra in the bottom part: our hands hold Pyra and type on bottom part, so there we don't desire hot, while near all time we don't touch (while in use) the lid (we can touch screen of course, as it is tactile).

    Thanks again for your answer.
     
  20. AndiTheBest

    AndiTheBest Active Member

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    AT+CCLK?

    Edit: checked the modem documentation. On this modem, this command returns the value from the internal RTC. Not sure if its possible to get the time from the tower, as the document doesnt include the CTZU AT-command.

    Edit2: the document i found(https://www.google.at/url?sa=t&sour...ggkMAI&usg=AFQjCNE__AvffIzfmZixkfwuOOSM8u54hQ) doesnt contain all available AT-commands and is outdated(version 1 of the modem doesnt support voice), so its maybe possible with AT+CTZU=1 and AT+CCLK?

    Does anyone know where to get actual PLS8 documents from gemalto?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
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