A date with the Pyra

[TrashyMG]

Question for ED, or really anyone [there was a mention of it in a thread back when I was a mere lurker]. Is the possibility of custom designs on the lid of the pyra still on the table? And if not, is there a way to obtain an extra shell at launch to make custom moldings out of?

There won't be an official way of ordering a custom design on the back lid. However the case design files will be released, these files could easily be used by a user to modify and 3D print your own pieces or even maybe molding for a more professional look... 

 

[WizardStan]

Making custom designed moulds is obviously not going to happen, but I wonder if he may one day make one without a design at all which can be laser cut with a custom design.

 

[Tanasinn]

Question for ED, or really anyone [there was a mention of it in a thread back when I was a mere lurker]. Is the possibility of custom designs on the lid of the pyra still on the table? And if not, is there a way to obtain an extra shell at launch to make custom moldings out of?

There won't be an official way of ordering a custom design on the back lid. However the case design files will be released, these files could easily be used by a user to modify and 3D print your own pieces or even maybe molding for a more professional look... 

This was what I was looking for. Excellent. My plan was originally just asking for a empty shell then producing transparent parts, namely the lid as my design is a bit too complicated for a cut This way the LED's will not be compromised and still function [I'm assuming beyond looks that the ones on the lid can be customized for notifications correct?]. Though the thought of getting the case design files direct?!? oh yes oh yes. 

 

[WizardStan]

Though the thought of getting the case design files direct?!? oh yes oh yes. 

The case files are already available

Just gotta export to STL and print the parts yourself.

 

[Tanasinn]

Though the thought of getting the case design files direct?!? oh yes oh yes. 

The case files are already available

Just gotta export to STL and print the parts yourself.

well don't I look like a butt

 

[Agricola]

The case files are already available

Just gotta export to STL and print the parts yourself.

These are just planned to be Blender files, not to be 3D-printed and actually used. ED stated this on page 4 of the topic you linked.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

I am curious: for 90% + of perspective Pyra users, is there any advantage of running the default OS over running Android? Sure there will be a good number of people that have serious reasons, but I am going out on a limb and guessing that 90% of users just boot up the OS and fire up games, emulators, applications - if that is the case, surely Android can do that, and also opens up a huge catalogue of software (and on top of that, any Pandora specific software in the repo could presumably be ported to Android relatively easily).

I don't expect the notion of what I have written above to do anything but enrage most people posting in this thread  :wub: h34r:  and it isn't the case that I particularly want to run Android, but at the same point, I am not sure I really understand why Android would be that undesirable (to the 90%).

Call me stupid but I really don't understant your stand? If you or someone else wants aAndroid only why wouldn't he just buy one of the Chinese ANdroid gaming devices? It'd probably have better processor bigger screen and gaming controls? And most importantly be about 5 times cheaper!!! 

Second thing I don't understand why would you want a keyboard on a Android device? Sure there are a few retro computer emulators and a number of games with keyboard controls, but would you play those on the go?

One aditional use case is that having an open source hardware and software I can use those devices for a secure data vault. Think of a most secure affordable bitcoin wallet?

Final and most important point Pandora/Pyra with a Linux OS and  keyboard has unique market proposition. It is a desktop replacement! Take away one of those and that status is simply gone. In my particular case the fact that I can use GNU C++ on it for a native software development is big plus. I can build a custom crossompiler and develop for my favored console too. I can also play CoreWars on the go. And yes, I did those thing in the past. I have good confidance that many other people probably majority of them (as they are ready to pay the premium price) have at least sometime use for the desktop capabilities of the Pandora/Pyra many of them are already mentioned here. 

So please tell me how you think? I'd like to know your thinking on the 1. and 2. point?

Okay, I certainly do not think you are stupid, but to answer your questions:

1. My question was what is it that 90% of people using the Pyra will be able to do under 'proper' Linux, but not Android. It isn't a loaded question, quite genuine. Your suggestion of people buying a different Chinese Android device doesn't really make any sense in the context (we aren't comparing the Pyra to other devices, we are simply talking about OS options for the Pyra).

2. This makes me think you have never used Android with a keyboard? Is that possibly true? The reason I speculate this is if you use Android with a proper keyboard you should know many things that are faster. I mean, take typical usage of someone on an Android device, say a mobile phone, write an email, write messages to friends, fill in web forms, type entries into Google search? All of the above is stuff that works much better with a proper keyboard.

3. With regards to the secure data vault bit coin wallet thing, that to me is most certainly the 10% minority.

4. Native GNU C++ being a big plus: I don't know the % split here of developers vs end users. When I look at the number of developers releasing software, it would be how many? Like how many people have contributing to the repo in the last 12 months? 200 people? How many Pandora devices are there? 4000? So about 5% of people are developers that release software? Sure there will be some people that write code that they never release, but is it really that high? I don't have the answers to these questions, but my speculation was that a large percentage of users would use Android without any problems.

I don't really want to continue any threads which insinuate people (including myself) are stupid, or with anyone who is going to be super defensive, or assume the position that I am 'against' them, as my post really was more of a question mark than anything. Up until I made the post, I was fully against Android, but then I asked myself why I felt like that, and the answers weren't as clear.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

I am curious: for 90% + of perspective Pyra users, is there any advantage of running the default OS over running Android? Sure there will be a good number of people that have serious reasons, but I am going out on a limb and guessing that 90% of users just boot up the OS and fire up games, emulators, applications - if that is the case, surely Android can do that, and also opens up a huge catalogue of software (and on top of that, any Pandora specific software in the repo could presumably be ported to Android relatively easily).

I don't expect the notion of what I have written above to do anything but enrage most people posting in this thread  :wub: h34r:  and it isn't the case that I particularly want to run Android, but at the same point, I am not sure I really understand why Android would be that undesirable (to the 90%).

There are applications and things you can do in Linux on the Pandora that to my knowledge have never been properly ported to Android.

In no particular order and by far not a complete list...

Filezilla

Command line SSH and SSHFS

Audacious

Audacity

Any true non-mobile browser (i.e. full desktop version)

Libre Office

MySQL

PostgreSQL

Gimp

Vulture's Eye Nethack

GemRB

Xcom

The list could go on and on...

So, Android as a root/default OS is VERY limiting.  The sad part is, many people would buy the device with a root Android OS and never understand how limiting it actually is.

Again, I would like to know what % of users will be running most of those things. Disclaimer: I don't have the answer! I guess that the majority of users will just play games/run 'standard' apps, but I am completely prepared to be wrong on that! But for a bunch of stuff on that list surely there are Android alternatives which mirror the same functionality, like Filezilla first hit on Google is 'And FTP' https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=lysesoft.andftp&hl=en_GB for the web browser side, I'd argue web browsers on the Pandora have always been far worse than anything on Android (perhaps that more to do with the Pandora processing power than anything else though). Some things on that list feel like they could be compiled/ported to Android (and then not only would the Pyra community benefit, but also a much larger Android community).

I could find a whole bunch of Android apps that are Android only, someone else could find a whole bunch of apps that are Linux only, but I don't really think that strengthens the case for one OS vs the other. My real question is if you take 90% of users, and find out what they really do use their device for (not what could they potentially use it for, but real like scenario), does all of that functionality exist/work well on Android?

I am playing devils advocate here, as I don't personally want an Android device, but it is good for the community as a whole to understand the reasoning behind this, as there is nothing worse than talking to people/communities that are against things on principle but don't have strong reasons why.

Finally, specifically to some people replying with their reasons they need full on Linux, you know yourself best, if it is true for your use case then that is fine. Whether you are part of the 10% or the 90% I have no idea. Perhaps it isn't 90/10 and instead 50/50. But either way lets all be friends..!

 

[WizardStan]

The case files are already available

Just gotta export to STL and print the parts yourself.

These are just planned to be Blender files, not to be 3D-printed and actually used. ED stated this on page 4 of the topic you linked.

That's on account of the dimensions being off.  He took the original STL files created by the manufacturer, imported, and assembled them.  You can manually explode the model, resize it appropriately, and extract what is effectively the original STL files suitable for printing again, at least on an SLA machine, FDM is always going to be a problem but I'm doing it anyway.  Trust me, I've looked at them, there's no missing parts in the model, there's supports and everything inside it.

 

[bzar]

Finally, specifically to some people replying with their reasons they need full on Linux, you know yourself best, if it is true for your use case then that is fine. Whether you are part of the 10% or the 90% I have no idea. Perhaps it isn't 90/10 and instead 50/50. But either way lets all be friends..!

Well, the recent community poll on PandoraLive had this graph about previous experience with linux:

Compare that split to one you'd get polling the general public. I think if you'd pick a random sample of people amongst android users you could come up with the 90/10 split. If you pick a random sample from this community you'll probably end up with a wildly different number. Android, as far as I've seen, is for simple things. Things you might want to do 90% of the time. That does not translate to 90% of any given people doing ONLY those things.

The question what one can do on full linux that one can't do on android is misleading, though you can pretty much pick any serious creativity tool and not find an app as featureful on android. It isn't about whether you can do something at all, but how well it is suited for such things. Android is suited for consuming and very light creativity, like typing emails. It's fine for light multitasking and most common file formats. A full linux desktop is better suited for creating and heavy multitasking. It also supports pretty much whatever formats you throw at it with suitable stuff installed. Android performs well when you want to do one thing that is common enough for someone to have created a ready application for it. There may be some less featureful apps available for the rarer cases. On a full desktop you have the same stuff you'd use on a full computer that have been developed for years and years. The command line tools support workflows no one else might use. If 99% of the people want to use those features of a full desktop even 1% of the time, Android is 100% not enough. The same poll I quoted earlier showed ~40% of the community have used it for coding.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Again, I would like to know what % of users will be running most of those things. Disclaimer: I don't have the answer! I guess that the majority of users will just play games/run 'standard' apps, but I am completely prepared to be wrong on that! But for a bunch of stuff on that list surely there are Android alternatives which mirror the same functionality, like Filezilla first hit on Google is 'And FTP' https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=lysesoft.andftp&hl=en_GB for the web browser side, I'd argue web browsers on the Pandora have always been far worse than anything on Android (perhaps that more to do with the Pandora processing power than anything else though). Some things on that list feel like they could be compiled/ported to Android (and then not only would the Pyra community benefit, but also a much larger Android community).

I mentioned above that things like Play Store cannot be included in the official firmware, not unless ED gets a license from Google to do so. Give the average android user a device without any Google software and see what happens.

At best we could target the Android entusiast user, the ones that root (Pyra would be rooted by default, of course) or flash (CyanogenMod users) their devices.

 

[WizardStan]

I mentioned above that things like Play Store cannot be included in the official firmware, not unless ED gets a license from Google to do so. Give the average android user a device without any Google software and see what happens.

As part of the first run wizard it can include a "Install Google services?" question.

"Could not connect to the internet. Tap the 'Install Google Services' button on the homescreen to try again when you have access"

I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be the problem you're trying to make it seem.

 

[Yoyobuae]

I mentioned above that things like Play Store cannot be included in the official firmware, not unless ED gets a license from Google to do so. Give the average android user a device without any Google software and see what happens.

As part of the first run wizard it can include a "Install Google services?" question.

"Could not connect to the internet. Tap the 'Install Google Services' button on the homescreen to try again when you have access"

I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be the problem you're trying to make it seem.

And where would the Google services be hosted? On openpandora.org server? I think that still counts as redistributing Google mobile services, which still requires a license to do so. Guess it could be done anyway and hope to pass under Google's radar (not the first time we do something similar ).

 

[Agricola]

The case files are already available

Just gotta export to STL and print the parts yourself.

These are just planned to be Blender files, not to be 3D-printed and actually used. ED stated this on page 4 of the topic you linked.

That's on account of the dimensions being off.  He took the original STL files created by the manufacturer, imported, and assembled them.  You can manually explode the model, resize it appropriately, and extract what is effectively the original STL files suitable for printing again, at least on an SLA machine, FDM is always going to be a problem but I'm doing it anyway.  Trust me, I've looked at them, there's no missing parts in the model, there's supports and everything inside it.

But with the dimensions being off, how can you print the exact dimensions if the most exact dimensions given are "about the size of the pandora"? Or are the raw numbers still in the file and you just have have to add a unit? I really have no clue as I never 3D printed anything and have no experience with such files.

Well, the recent community poll on PandoraLive had this graph about previous experience with linux:

Spoiler

While this is great, I suspect most visitors of PandoraLive are "hardcore users" (for a lack of a better term), while there are also quite a few people with Pandoras who just lurk on the forums or don't visit them at all. So: Yes, great poll for this community, but don't think every Pandora user is part of it.

And where would the Google services be hosted? On openpandora.org server? I think that still counts as redistributing Google mobile services, which still requires a license to do so. Guess it could be done anyway and hope to pass under Google's radar (not the first time we do something similar ).

There actually is already a website called opengapps.org where you can legally download an .apk for all apps by google. It's mainly used by users of CyanogenMod and other unofficial Android distributions as those face the same legal problem.

 

[Grench]

I am curious: for 90% + of perspective Pyra users, is there any advantage of running the default OS over running Android? Sure there will be a good number of people that have serious reasons, but I am going out on a limb and guessing that 90% of users just boot up the OS and fire up games, emulators, applications - if that is the case, surely Android can do that, and also opens up a huge catalogue of software (and on top of that, any Pandora specific software in the repo could presumably be ported to Android relatively easily).

I don't expect the notion of what I have written above to do anything but enrage most people posting in this thread  :wub: h34r:  and it isn't the case that I particularly want to run Android, but at the same point, I am not sure I really understand why Android would be that undesirable (to the 90%).

There are applications and things you can do in Linux on the Pandora that to my knowledge have never been properly ported to Android.

In no particular order and by far not a complete list...

Filezilla

Command line SSH and SSHFS

Audacious

Audacity

Any true non-mobile browser (i.e. full desktop version)

Libre Office

MySQL

PostgreSQL

Gimp

Vulture's Eye Nethack

GemRB

Xcom

The list could go on and on...

So, Android as a root/default OS is VERY limiting.  The sad part is, many people would buy the device with a root Android OS and never understand how limiting it actually is.

Again, I would like to know what % of users will be running most of those things. Disclaimer: I don't have the answer! I guess that the majority of users will just play games/run 'standard' apps, but I am completely prepared to be wrong on that! But for a bunch of stuff on that list surely there are Android alternatives which mirror the same functionality, like Filezilla first hit on Google is 'And FTP' https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=lysesoft.andftp&hl=en_GB for the web browser side, I'd argue web browsers on the Pandora have always been far worse than anything on Android (perhaps that more to do with the Pandora processing power than anything else though). Some things on that list feel like they could be compiled/ported to Android (and then not only would the Pyra community benefit, but also a much larger Android community).

I could find a whole bunch of Android apps that are Android only, someone else could find a whole bunch of apps that are Linux only, but I don't really think that strengthens the case for one OS vs the other. My real question is if you take 90% of users, and find out what they really do use their device for (not what could they potentially use it for, but real like scenario), does all of that functionality exist/work well on Android?

I am playing devils advocate here, as I don't personally want an Android device, but it is good for the community as a whole to understand the reasoning behind this, as there is nothing worse than talking to people/communities that are against things on principle but don't have strong reasons why.

Finally, specifically to some people replying with their reasons they need full on Linux, you know yourself best, if it is true for your use case then that is fine. Whether you are part of the 10% or the 90% I have no idea. Perhaps it isn't 90/10 and instead 50/50. But either way lets all be friends..!

I have licensed and actively use AndFTP on my Android phone.

http://www.lysesoft.com/products/andftp/

However, it pales in comparison to FileZilla.

https://filezilla-project.org/client_screenshots.php

You can find office applications - even made by Microsoft for Android.  Compared to the LibreOffice suite, they're still just 'apps'.

The point is that with Android you get apps - where you pay for the full version or get saddled with constant data usage to support the advertising model.  With Linux you get full featured program suites, generally 'free'.

Nothing should be done to -exclude- Android from being a user installed OS, but I don't think it should get any official support as a root/base/host OS running directly on the hardware.  None - as in no support at all for that mode of operation.

However, at it's heart the beauty of the Pyra is centered around it's ability to emulate and be a host to other environments.  THAT is how Android support should be approached.  It should work fine as a guest OS.  If someone can make the pieces work, it has the potential to run much faster if it can access the SoC's VM extensions and share resources on the 3D hardware (making it more VM than emulator).

Ideally opening Android would be about the same thing as opening DosBox or Drastic.  Android as just another guest platform.

Several of the Android proponents above seem to be under the impression that Android should be the root OS.  That would be more fracturing than the Linux on X86 as host OS/system concept would have ever been.

 

[Not_a_Nick]

But with the dimensions being off, how can you print the exact dimensions if the most exact dimensions given are "about the size of the pandora"? Or are the raw numbers still in the file and you just have have to add a unit? I really have no clue as I never 3D printed anything and have no experience with such files.

140 x 84 x 29 mm, as stated at the technical specs tab of this website.

 

[WizardStan]

But with the dimensions being off, how can you print the exact dimensions if the most exact dimensions given are "about the size of the pandora"? Or are the raw numbers still in the file and you just have have to add a unit? I really have no clue as I never 3D printed anything and have no experience with such files.

140 x 84 x 29 mm, as stated at the technical specs tab of this website.

Exactly.  The worst case scenario is that it should actually be 139.5mm (or 140.4mm) and that extra .5mm prevents the mainboard or keys from fitting properly, in which case it just needs to be reprinted 0.4% smaller and the first ever-so-slightly too big case becomes decorative.

edit: to further explain, when EvilDragon imported the STLs it looks like he didn't fix the units: by default in Blender, one unit is one metre (or one millimetre, I can't tell if it's actually mm or if my slicer is smarter than I give it credit for) but who knows what a "unit" was in the original model: STL doesn't carry that information.  The Pyra model is 170 units across approximately, so when exported it is 170mm.  Just need to scale it down to 82.4% and it should be correct.

 

[Agricola]

But with the dimensions being off, how can you print the exact dimensions if the most exact dimensions given are "about the size of the pandora"? Or are the raw numbers still in the file and you just have have to add a unit? I really have no clue as I never 3D printed anything and have no experience with such files.

140 x 84 x 29 mm, as stated at the technical specs tab of this website.

The specs say approximately 140 x 84 x 29 mm, and that's the problem. As WizardStan said, even a small difference and the PCBs don't fit.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ Also what WizardStan said is scaling it properly once you know the right dimensions is fairly easy. 

 

[Yoyobuae]

And where would the Google services be hosted? On openpandora.org server? I think that still counts as redistributing Google mobile services, which still requires a license to do so. Guess it could be done anyway and hope to pass under Google's radar (not the first time we do something similar ).

There actually is already a website called opengapps.org where you can legally download an .apk for all apps by google. It's mainly used by users of CyanogenMod and other unofficial Android distributions as those face the same legal problem.

Oh, nevermind then.