Reflect the LEDs!

Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. fusion_power

    fusion_power Advanced Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    7,066
    Location:
    germany
    Stupid english words. :D  Yes, if it is to transparent, it does not work, same as if it is not transparent enough, that's what I meant with finding the "sweet spot". ^^"
     
  2. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    19,786
    Location:
    Ingolstadt
    But in our case, there was no sweet spot (with the black layer on top).

    Even with the minimum usable transparency, it wasn't diffuse enough, the LED light did not reach the key top.

    Basically, there are two factors we need to take in account:

    * Area the light reaches

    * Brightness that reaches the top of the key

    Making the material more transparent: Decreases the area the light reaches, increases the brightness

    Making the material more diffuse: Increases the area the light reaches, decreases the brightness.

    As mentioned in my last newspost already, even with an almost opaque (=minimum transparent) keymat, the area the light reaches is not enough.

    So changing the keymat material itself could NEVER improve the situation, since the maximum reachable diffusion was not enough (this is what I tried to explain to you a few times already).

    That's the reason we needed to find different solutions.

    One would've been to remove the black coating on the keymat.

    In that case, the light would not be stopped, but would leak out of the keymat into the case and then get into the keymat again.

    The result: The light would reach a wider area (so all key tops should get light as well), but the key surroundings would also light up.

    Another possible solution would be to increase the number of LEDs. This would - of course - also increase the area the light reaches.

    Another possible solution would be to try to reflect the light more, so that the coating wouldn't eat it, but reflect it back as good as possible.

    Our solution now is basically a mixture of all three.

    But only changing the material without improving anything else would just've made things worse.
     
    rSl and bzar like this.
  3. oskda

    oskda Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Messages:
    168
    ... only situations where there is not enough ambient light to see correctly keyboard or symbols on keyboard keys :)

    Imagine you are in bed and you want to do somethong: you can use Pyra without turning on room light.

    And think that Pyra is a really mobile pocket computer: you will use it in a lot of situations and different places, and not all of them will have a good ambient light. So backlit keyboard is a must imho. Backlit keyboard for Pyra is infinite more necessary than in a desktop keyboard.

    I have a Zaurus (what and old machine) and as its keyboard does nota have light, I can't use it in a lot of situations where I would like to use it.
     
  4. Wrath Of Khan

    Wrath Of Khan Soul soother...

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    5,146
    Location:
    Ireland
    I'll certainly give the backlight a try when I get my Pyra. Maybe I'm getting old but I'm looking forward to the Pyra more than getting a ps4.
     
  5. TeDaDeS

    TeDaDeS Very Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2004
    Messages:
    883
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I would assume that these changes make the chance bigger that light will bleed into the next group of LEDs. For most keys that probably isn't an issue, but for the power button it might. Does the power button also have the additional coating, or is it only for the key-area?
     
  6. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,230
    Location:
    Somewhere off the coast of the EU
    The power button is lit the same colour as all the other keys, as far as I've seen.  There are two RGB LEDS to its left and right which will need to not bleed into the keys, but they aren't keys so the LEDs can go directly below those.
     
  7. Yoyobuae

    Yoyobuae Very Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    839
    Having tried this recently with Pandora, the keyboard backlight will be very welcome.

    Also would be nice LCD backlight with dimmer levels. Pandora's LCD backlight at it's lowest level is still a bit too bright to use in a dark room.
     
  8. Agricola

    Agricola Silently watching, silently judging

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2015
    Messages:
    190
    Location:
    Germany
    No, it's also lit up by a single RGB LED. Source: ED's last video at 0:56.

    A little bit of bleeding probably won't be avoidable, let's just hope it won't be too much. But I guess we'll find out as soon as the prototypes are finished.
     
  9. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,230
    Location:
    Somewhere off the coast of the EU
    Oh, good spot.  Three RGB LEDs there then, all mostly showing different colours.
     
  10. slimeycat

    slimeycat Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2014
    Messages:
    73
    I love the second guessing going on in these threads .... ED you have a lot of patience.

    Awesome fixes on the backlighting by the way.
     
  11. oskda

    oskda Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Messages:
    168
    This is a problem too in some smartphones. I would like Pyra address this problem but I think it is to ask for too much  :)
     
  12. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    19,786
    Location:
    Ingolstadt
    Well, the backlight is fixed in the LCD itself.

    Nothing anyone can do to change that.
     
  13. oskda

    oskda Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Messages:
    168
    So do I, but I have been always -from 80s years- a computer man/boy, not a console man/boy. I grew up with 8 bit computers, so I like computers for gaming, not consoles. I think computers always had much more game types and more liberty to do innovator things.

    In this way I think I'll love Pyra because it is a computer with keyboard -so I can do computer tasks- and also it can emulate old computers, where pocket consoles can't do it well as they don't have physical keyboards (and a screen keyboard is never the same).
     
    rSl likes this.
  14. oskda

    oskda Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Messages:
    168
    Does it have a number of fixed levels for backlight intensity?

    No external line to control backlight level/intensity in LCD?
     
  15. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,360
    Location:
    Everywhere
    You may be able to change it to different levels than the default ones used when changing via the GUI.  This has been discussed regarding the Pandora display brightness with info about which files to edit.  I think we may have talked about the Pyra, but either way there is no reason to believe the same won't be true there as well.
     
    oskda likes this.
  16. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    11,230
    Location:
    Somewhere off the coast of the EU
    Yes, but there's no value you can set in /sys/class/.../brightness which is dull enough for use in unlit scenarios.  When your eyes are dark adapted the available settings are off, or blindingly bright.

    I'm not convinced there is a solution to this.  The last time I saw a screen light that was any use in the dark, it was a front light for a reflective LCD in the early 90s - completely ineffectual even in indirect daylight, but just enough to engage colour vision in low light (not that it had a colour LCD).  I'm not sure that the backlit cold cathode technology goes that low - unless the Pyra LCD is LED backlit, which would be cool!
     
  17. oskda

    oskda Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Messages:
    168
    I know Samsung implemented a solution on Galaxy S5(1)(2)  (following Galaxy S and Note nodels have this mode/solution too, but I haven't tested it as I don't own any of them, nor S5), allowing for darker display to be used in those situations. But I think that, as they use OLED display, the situation is different: an OLED screen as so high contrast -and totally dark black, zero light- that an image can be good with low light emission. On LCD screens the situation may be different: as you decrease bright, contrast goes bad, so it may have a level where contrast would be too bad -and black has light too-.

    On other side I love modern OLED quality, but OLED screen has a much shorter life (it wears out sooner and it may suffer uneven wear as CRT did), so I prefer LCD for Pyra (I think I will use Pyra a lot of years :) not like a smartphone you change every year or every few years).

    (1): « the Galaxy S5 does have the upper hand in the minimum brightness area, as its screen has been designed so that its brightness can go as low as 2 nits, enabling a super-comfortable viewing experience in the dark – something that you can't have with the One (M8) and its 16-nit minimum brightness »

    Source: http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Samsung-Galaxy-S5-vs-HTC-One-M8_id3641#zGxKYk2Pj8oC4IWz.99

     

    (2): In DisplayMate: http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_S5_ShootOut_1.htm

    Super Dimming Mode:  « The Galaxy S5 also has a new Super Dimming Mode that allows the Maximum Screen Brightness to be set all the way down to just 2 cd/m2 using the Brightness Slider. This is useful for working comfortably without eye strain or bothering others in very dark environments, or affecting the eye’s dark adaptation, such as when using a telescope [OMG]. The display still delivers Full 24-bit color and the picture quality remains excellent ».
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2015
  18. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,360
    Location:
    Everywhere
    This is a big part of why I try to set things up with black or dark grey backgrounds and lighter text.  It isn't a great solution since it doesn't work for all things (web browsing is hit or miss...I suppose I could do word processing with white on black somehow, but I just leave everything alone), but it is better than looking at a super bright display with everything white.  It may be worth noting that at present I spend most of my time in poorly lit places (1 or 2 small lights, or unshaded windows), which I prefer, and only have lights on when I am referencing physical documents or am sharing a workspace with others that prefer more lights on. 

    Using my Pandora can be exceptionally difficult due to some characters not being where I expect them, so I resort to tilting the screen forward to locate certain keys.  This is one of the major things the Pyra will improve for me.  It seems like the Pyra will be everything I wanted the Pandora to be and more.  If it had a decent enough x86 CPU I wouldn't have much need for a full size computer other than for playing some newer games and the few times a week I need something with power.  Just plug in a keyboard, trackball and a monitor or 3 and I would be good to go.  Who knows, this may be true with what we get.
     
  19. _jr_

    _jr_ Advanced Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,170
    I have setup a separate 'Night' gamma profile that wastes a lot of backlight energy, but makes the Pandora usable in a completely dark room without disturbing other residents.
     
  20. oskda

    oskda Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2015
    Messages:
    168
     I was thinking that only Samsung smartphones had a "Super Dimming Mode" with brightness as low as 2 nits, but today I have seen that there are other LCD smartphones with those levels of only 2 nits brightness: for example LG G4 and LG Nexux 5X.

    Here is the information: http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Google-Nexus-5X-Review_id4108
    on "Display measurements and quality" under "MINIMUN BRIGHTNESS".

    I wonder what level (nits) will have Pyra LCD  at minimum brightness.

    Someone has that information?

    I have look for Boe LCD panel specs used by Pyra, but I haven't found it.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2015

Share This Page

Loading...