Action button labels

[bzar]

11) Pandora-like (lowercase) Greek layout

μ
γ ν
α β
χ

That look good. Nobody said it, but I think the reason some people are against greek letters is because they don't want something gaudy (even if they would be accustomed after a short time).That is less gaudy than capital Greek's letters and look like their cherished habits. I think it's a good compromise since there isn't ambiguity anymore.

Also those are easy to refer to, since they look like abxyuv.

 

[Tenka]

It's basically just another font of the Pandora's layout +2.  I won't say it's bad, but you certainly don't need to exert any effort into accepting it as a "compromise."

 

[_wb_]

I just made a huge poll:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15818-action-button-labels-poll/

 

[Tenka]

Oh hey, "7) Greek letters that look a bit like Playstation layout"'s bottom most button looks like a Z rather than like an X.  I like it a lot more now.  I think you made a nice enough poll for whatever comes of it.

Let it be known that I appreciate the idea of using Roman Numerals just as much as using Dice Faces which I'm also capitalizing for some reason.  Non-number numbers turn nice things on in me.

 

[Christoph.Krn]

(For future reference: The discussion has severely spilled over to Action button labels: poll, Action button labels: poll 2, Action button labels: poll 2 bis, and Action button labels: poll 3 (final poll?). Read those threads to understand.)

I have another proposal, which is to turn the process around.

Instead of attempting to imagine button labels that would/might/could make sense, we could also take a closer look at the more popular ways that people are referring to the buttons of the Pandora today. These ways are known to work in at least some situations. We could then try to figure out whether and how it would make sense to fit one of them onto the physical buttons as labels.

For instance, what is probably one of the most-used, most well-understood, and most ASCII-compatible ways of referring to the gaming buttons, at least in written form here on these forums today, is this: (A) (Y) ( B) (X).

So, it may (or may not, so far I can not tell for sure) make sense to consider something like the following as button labels, including the parentheses (or brackets, or Klammern, or whatever else you want to call "(" and ")"):

( A ) ( Y ) ( B ) ( X )

... and then something roughly along the lines of ( C ) ( Z )
This would not create a "strict" separation between keyboard keys and gaming buttons, but it would give the gaming buttons a face different from the current one, and it may be one that's more distinct than the current ones (and it's one that would be entirely ASCII-compatible). So, whenever gaming buttons are being referenced in a textual form, it could be done as follows:

• Press (A) to confirm, (X) to return

You might think that this would not help with referencing the keys of the /keyboard/ in textual form, but in fact it might set the keyboard keys apart from the gaming buttons anyway, merely because the gaming buttons would have changed:

• Press (A) to download
• Press (Y) to reload
• Press B to reset input mask
• Press Q or Esc to Exit

...then again, this entire post is speculation, I have no idea what would really happen once/if people get more used to this (?) label format on the gaming buttons.
Neelix, if you are reading this, I would like to hear what you are thinking about this (this is why: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15857-action-button-labels-poll-2/?p=322874, http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/6812-guihints-preview01-02/?p=149553/URL]).

Again, the whole matter is quite complex, and I'm sparing a lot of considerations and details here. Also, I have to state that I have no idea yet about whether this might be the best or even just a good idea.

PS: This forum software is broken. If I disable emoticons for my post, it simply adds whitespace to fool the automatic smiley conversion system. That's why I kept smileys enabled for this post.

 

[Neelix]

Neelix, if you are reading this, I would like to hear what you are thinking about this (this is why: http://boards.openpa...oll-2/?p=322874, http://boards.openpa...01-02/?p=149553).

I have used that method to indicate a gaming button over a keyboard key myself,  but it only works in a textual medium, so what I said in the first of my linked posts still applies.  This would only be a visual difference, not a conceptual one,  which while I suppose is better than nothing at all,  means that it really doesn't address my original points.  

Also I think that the fact that you can't enter ( B) in the forums without the smiley conversion kicking in counteracts any benefits that system would otherwise have.

- Neelix

 

[_jr_]

I refer to the buttons either by default keybinding (Home, End, Page up, and Page down) or (as Klumpen) as North/East/South/West action button.

I agree that having the labels correspond more to these would be great. That doesn't rule out getting nice symbols at the same time.

 

[_wb_]

I tend to use [A] [X] [Y] for the action buttons and A B X Y or a b x y for the keyboard keys. But maybe that doesn't make sense since the keys are rectangular (actually rounded squares on the Pandora and probably rounded rectangles on the Pyra) and the buttons are round. So maybe () is a better idea. The ( B) thing is annoying though.


 


If a C button is added, © looks like a copyright symbol to me, even though © is probably more commonly used as ASCII approximation of ©.

I tend to use [A] [X] [Y] for the action buttons and A B X Y or a b x y for the keyboard keys. But maybe that doesn't make sense since the keys are rectangular (actually rounded squares on the Pandora and probably rounded rectangles on the Pyra) and the buttons are round. So maybe () is a better idea. The ( B) thing is annoying though.


 


If a C button is added, © looks like a copyright symbol to me, even though © is probably more commonly used as ASCII approximation of ©.

 


Ugh. This forum software does strange things. That was ( C ), ( c ) and ©.

 

[God Ginrai]

I have used that method to indicate a gaming button over a keyboard key myself,  but it only works in a textual medium, so what I said in the first of my linked posts still applies.  This would only be a visual difference, not a conceptual one,  which while I suppose is better than nothing at all,  means that it really doesn't address my original points.

Does that matter? If you are in front of them and tell them to use the B button, and you see them hit B on the keyboard, you can easily correct them.

-God Ginrai

 

[Fzero]

I still like the idea of English [Latin?] letters most, AYBX in a 'thin' typeface, made from a 'gloss' that sunk plush into a 'matte' button... the button being 'dark', the letters either 'dark' or 'coloured'.

That's still my preference.

Another thought though, which I wouldn't be too adverse to, is a thin coloured outline to the button, then keeping the letter either embossed or a gloss fill within a matte button. I think a gloss in matte would be nice.

I've used the button config _wb_ done, which I quite like, taking into consideration that space on the device might not allow for the typical Sega 6 button layout

Very thin outline, so as to be pretty subtle but still clear which is red/blue/yellow/green/white/black

 

[Neelix]

I have used that method to indicate a gaming button over a keyboard key myself,  but it only works in a textual medium, so what I said in the first of my linked posts still applies.  This would only be a visual difference, not a conceptual one,  which while I suppose is better than nothing at all,  means that it really doesn't address my original points.

Does that matter? If you are in front of them and tell them to use the B button, and you see them hit B on the keyboard, you can easily correct them.

Maybe I'm biased, but I spent 10 years taking tech support calls over the phone, so I do take a lot of notice of situations where auditory cues are likely to be misunderstood. When you can't see what the user you are talking to is actually doing, usually the only indication that they are doing something wrong is that the intended effect doesn't happen. Figuring out *what* went wrong can be difficult, because often the users concept of what they are looking at is vastly different from your own.

To me the way the Pandora's gaming buttons were labelled represents a serious design flaw.

- Neelix

 

[_wb_]

I still like the idea of English [Latin?] letters most, AYBX in a 'thin' typeface, made from a 'gloss' that sunk plush into a 'matte' button... the button being 'dark', the letters either 'dark' or 'coloured'.

That's still my preference.

Another thought though, which I wouldn't be too adverse to, is a thin coloured outline to the button, then keeping the letter either embossed or a gloss fill within a matte button. I think a gloss in matte would be nice.

I've used the button config _wb_ done, which I quite like, taking into consideration that space on the device might not allow for the typical Sega 6 button layout

Very thin outline, so as to be pretty subtle but still clear which is red/blue/yellow/green/white/black

I didn't even see those colors until I read they were there. Subtle is good, but this is too subtle imo -- scaled down to the actual size, you'll have a very hard time finding the right color, especially in sub-optimal lighting conditions.

 

[God Ginrai]

Maybe I'm biased, but I spent 10 years taking tech support calls over the phone, so I do take a lot of notice of situations where auditory cues are likely to be misunderstood. When you can't see what the user you are talking to is actually doing, usually the only indication that they are doing something wrong is that the intended effect doesn't happen. Figuring out *what* went wrong can be difficult, because often the users concept of what they are looking at is vastly different from your own.

In a tech support situation, once can be verbose and explain things, because they won't do anything until you tell them what to do. In this situation (which will never happen because EvilDragon will likely not have any sort of verbal tech support) you can simply say: "Press the X button, which is at the bottom of the diamond opposite the dpad." or similar.

To me the way the Pandora's gaming buttons were labelled represents a serious design flaw.

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think people can not distinguish between buttons and keys and are incapable of learning.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

To me the way the Pandora's gaming buttons were labelled represents a serious design flaw.

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think people can not distinguish between buttons and keys and are incapable of learning.

Strange to see this argument is being used by someone who thinks that people don't know Greek letters and are incapable of learning...

Especially because it is not really a matter of learning: you can learn about the difference between buttons and keys all you want, but if someone or something tells you simply to "Press X", you still have to make an educated guess: is this a DOS game? a GNU/Linux program? a Pandora/Pyra native game? If it's a port, how much effort has been spent to rename the buttons? Or maybe it's a SNES or SEGA game...

You may say that the context will always make it sufficiently clear, but I'm not so sure. Unified launchers like Pandafe will make it increasingly transparent to use emulators, so you may not even be very aware which emulated platform you're currently on.

 

[mcobit]

I know that I don't use them in many of my ports and mostly refer to "actionbutton xyab" in text interfaces but something like gui hints can be useful even if they are explained by a picture that is shown before the game starts and that shows the needed keys to play the game. With notaz sdl it would also be possible to switch from the game to the helpscreen and back via alt+tab if you want to view the contols again while playing.

 

[Neelix]

In a tech support situation, once can be verbose and explain things, because they won't do anything until you tell them what to do. In this situation (which will never happen because EvilDragon will likely not have any sort of verbal tech support) you can simply say: "Press the X button, which is at the bottom of the diamond opposite the dpad." or similar.

Just because ED is not likely to offer tech support over the phone doesn't mean that some poor sod somewhere isn't going to end up having to offer verbal support for it.

I've learned the hard way that you can be verbose as you like, there will always be someone who still doesn't get it. Yes, you can make people understand if you explain things well enough,  but why complicate things, when such a simple and obvious design decision as putting different labels on different buttons can make such communicatons so much easier?

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think people can not distinguish between buttons and keys and are incapable of learning.

There is no tangible difference between buttons and keys! The difference is purely conceptual and you have to have learned the concept first before you can make use of it.  I know that people are capable of learning,  but this isn't about learning it's about communication,  and you can't just always assume that  the person you are communicating with already has the necessary education. 

- Neelix

 

[_wb_]

I know that I don't use them in many of my ports and mostly refer to "actionbutton xyab" in text interfaces but something like gui hints can be useful even if they are explained by a picture that is shown before the game starts and that shows the needed keys to play the game. With notaz sdl it would also be possible to switch from the game to the helpscreen and back via alt+tab if you want to view the contols again while playing.

Guihints are the way to go. I'm in favor of putting guihints in a standard shared folder on the firmware, so applications and games can use those in their interfaces and help screens. We could do that now already for the Pandora (it's just a matter of putting a few dozen small images in some folder, maybe in two or three different sizes), and encourage porters and original application devs to make use of them; if you're already using them in the way it is done in e.g. PNDManager, it's almost no effort to change the path of the icons from something local (inside the PND) to something shared (in /usr/share); if you have them integrated in larger images (e.g. the NanoLemmings help screens) it means some minimal code changes are needed to blit the icons on top of a helpscreen that only contains the explanations and images.

That way, whatever labels are used in the Pyra or one of its successors, applications that follow this "standard" will always show appropriate guihints. Even if we'll stick with A B X Y forever, this is still a good idea because it is a relatively easy way to get a uniform "look and feel".

 

[_jr_]

To me the way the Pandora's gaming buttons were labelled represents a serious design flaw.

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think people can not distinguish between buttons and keys and are incapable of learning.

Strange to see this argument is being used by someone who thinks that people don't know Greek letters and are incapable of learning...

I don't care that much about the labels, but this point is making me think ED'd be doing everybody a service by not using ABXY and gently extending our horizon.


I've also done over the phone support and I can say distinct symbols on the action buttons would definitely help (I had best results with letting the 'customer' - typically a family memeber - describe what she is seeing and then tell what to do relative to that description; it is often surprising where they are actually looking for something and which obvious things they miss).


I like most of the proposals, but these triangular element symbols from the elements page you linked best represent what I think is important: they almost perfectly represent both Klumpen's abstract North/East/South/West buttons (if Air and Earth are suitably rotated) and the Home/End/etc default key bindings. I'd think something like that is even better than a set of nice symbols (though I'd happily vote for the element symbols).

 

[jasay]

I consistently voted for the Greek layout, but my major concern wasn't because of the key/button confusion (though in my mind there is no difference between a key and a button). I grew up on SNES and no matter what controller anyone hands me, if they say (type) "press a" my muscle memory is going to press where the SNES "a" button is before my conscious brain realizes what is going on. I image there are many others who do the same thing but are used to Xbox or Sega or whatever other layout.

For me it takes a relatively short time to learn something new, but a very long time to relearn or retrain something I've been doing for awhile. I learned the location of the Wii buttons in about a minute and could follow on screen instructions without any thinking whatsoever after less than an hour, but I still screw up occasionally following on screen instructions on my Pandora after 2 years.

Gui hints help, but I have to either actively ignore 70% of the icon to see the location of the button, or pause to take in both letter and location and remind my thumb what to do. Neither is good in a game situation.

For me, the incompatibilities of previous consoles when it comes to a,b,x,y mean that there is no way to use those letters without putting someone at a disadvantage. I would love to see the action buttons have some type of unique identifier so I can know what button I'm trying to push without having to look down from the screen and move my thumb out of the way first.

Of course the above is just my opinion based on just my experience and I'm mostly posting this because I'm curious if anyone else had this relearning problem. My apologies if this was brought up before but I don't remember seeing it.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[God Ginrai]

To me the way the Pandora's gaming buttons were labelled represents a serious design flaw.

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think people can not distinguish between buttons and keys and are incapable of learning.

 Strange to see this argument is being used by someone who thinks that people don't know Greek letters and are incapable of learning...

 Not really, because as I pointed out, learning the correct button, when two are named the same, is as simple as trial and error. There is no trial and error process for typing Greek characters.

Especially because it is not really a matter of learning: you can learn about the difference between buttons and keys all you want, but if someone or something tells you simply to "Press X", you still have to make an educated guess: is this a DOS game? a GNU/Linux program? a Pandora/Pyra native game? If it's a port, how much effort has been spent to rename the buttons? Or maybe it's a SNES or SEGA game...

 As I said, it's a simple trial and error process, which doesn't get repeated for the same game or emulator unless you are incapable of learning.

You may say that the context will always make it sufficiently clear, but I'm not so sure. Unified launchers like Pandafe will make it increasingly transparent to use emulators, so you may not even be very aware which emulated platform you're currently on.

 Are you seriously going to try to suggest that someone who downloaded or ripped the game themselves won't know what system the game is for? Come on, that argument is about as weak as wet toilet paper.

Just because ED is not likely to offer tech support over the phone doesn't mean that some poor sod somewhere isn't going to end up having to offer verbal support for it.

 Exactly, and that will likely be in person. And in the case that it isn't, like I said, you can be more verbose.

I've learned the hard way that you can be verbose as you like, there will always be someone who still doesn't get it. Yes, you can make people understand if you explain things well enough,  but why complicate things, when such a simple and obvious design decision as putting different labels on different buttons can make such communicatons so much easier?

 And you think that telling someone over the phone to press a Greek character is somehow easier to understand? At least if you tell them to press A, you can be confident they've at least narrowed it down to 2 options instead of not even knowing what you are talking about.

There is no tangible difference between buttons and keys! The difference is purely conceptual and you have to have learned the concept first before you can make use of it.  I know that people are capable of learning,  but this isn't about learning it's about communication,  and you can't just always assume that  the person you are communicating with already has the necessary education.

Who the hell will have a Pyra that has never used a keyboard before? That is a concept that everybody learns quite early nowadays.

-God Ginrai