Action button labels

[Exophase]

This really isn't an issue and it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled

So that's a vote for 1 and ι as labels right?

 

[God Ginrai]

There's no need to do that. Doing so will only limit us. We should be choosing a layout that makes more sense to new users. Thus, one where all of the buttons have a logical progression and are easy to identify and communicate.

I don't see it limiting at all, please elaborate.
Please explain to me how ab xy ..etc labels are anymore limiting than odd Greek characters and Roman numerals.

 They're not more limiting than Greek characters. Did you even read my other posts? I've probably pushed against the Greek character suggestions more than anyone else in this topic. It should be quite obvious that when I said that your suggested layout was limiting, that I was comparing it to ABC XYZ (Saturn Layout), any of the numerical suggestions, colors, or even Suits. And that's because each button logically fits with the others. The Pandora layout + 2 others does not have any logical connection between the first 4 buttons and the 2 extra buttons. There's a disjoint there that doesn't work.

Okay, but even if you need to tell a friend often, that's not a problem because you will learn. Label isn't a big deal but I put consistency over habits.

 No, because if I tell him to press omega and he doesn't know what omega is, then he can't learn that. If I tell him to press A and he sees A on his buttons, then he can use that knowledge right away.

If your friend is a Pyra owner he already learned that. If he isn't and is with you you just have to show him. If he is away you just have to write the correct symbol or "omega" and he will google it, but if he is away he should be a Pyra owner (unless you lent him).�

 No, you're assuming that people achieve button enlightenment on receiving a Pyra. You can't guarantee someone is going to know all the buttons as soon as they get it.

No. Greek letters are not specific to graphing calculators, not any more than Latin letters are specific to, say, chemical elements.

 The only common place that people see Greek characters in daily life is in math. So yes, it is specific.

So by definition, a key is a button.

I've already pointed this out to milkshake and he already admitted this.

Also, note that the game controls (dpad, action buttons, shoulder buttons) also serve as keyboard keys (arrow keys, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, modifier keys) on both the Pandora and Pyra. So even if you make the hard distinction between buttons and keys, you have to admit that the same physical piece of plastic can act as both, depending on context.

Not really. Pressing the gaming buttons on the Pandora does indeed generate a key sequence. However, when an application wants that key sequence, it tells you to press the key sequence, not the button. For example, no application says: "Press X to scroll down"; They say "press Page Down to scroll down".

Because of this, there is no confusion there, because the only time they refer to the key sequence that a button generates, they aren't using the letters that could be confused with the actual keys on the keyboard.

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

What I've learned from this thread is what you have to say only matters if you're willing to hammer your same ideas and same arguments over and over again without really adding anything new. Oh, and extra points if you throw in something about how your idea is actually the most empirically obvious or even the only rational choice even when most of it is subjective.

Are any of you getting tired of this yet? Are there any thoughts on where you see this going?

I see a lot of the points you guys are making and I don't even know what I'd personally want best. Maybe I don't care enough to know. I do know that trying to suggest a compromise is just stupid because few here, at least among the more vigorous participants in this thread, want anything that's outside of optimizing their preferences.

Is there at least some way to distill a small number of options that represent something people will be willing to accept? Like _wb_'s PS1-ish layout, Sega layout, Pandora + 2 whatever (doesn't have to be C/Z per se), and maybe the Greekish stylization thereof? Maybe make them a little more broader just we can try voting this down?

 

[milkshake]

E.g. the expression "Press any key to continue" is wrong according to you, because you can only type keys and press buttons. It is a commonly used expression though. Also, according to Wiktionary, "keypress" and "key press" are valid words.

This is term reserved for pc games or games on systems that have a keyboard by default like an Amiga, to my knowledge no (or very few) console or arcade games use this term.

Even if you make the hard distinction between buttons and keys, you have to admit that the same physical piece of plastic can act as both, depending on context.

Of course but as you saw in your definitions, a key (although a button) is used in specific context and in the case of the Pandora or Pyra this fits the context.

 

[TrashyMG]

They're not more limiting than Greek characters. Did you even read my other posts? I've probably pushed against the Greek character suggestions more than anyone else in this topic. It should be quite obvious that when I said that your suggested layout was limiting, that I was comparing it to ABC XYZ (Saturn Layout), any of the numerical suggestions, colors, or even Suits. And that's because each button logically fits with the others. The Pandora layout + 2 others does not have any logical connection between the first 4 buttons and the 2 extra buttons. There's a disjoint there that doesn't work.

Did you read what I wrote and what I was replying to? what I was replying to was specific to the labeling of the buttons, not the physical layout. When you blasted me on that I thought you were talking about the labeling of the buttons since that is what I was replying to.

 

[Granitehead]

Seems I do Latin up on the top left circle of this Venn.


Quite a few are the same then

Latin is at the top right, top left is Greek.


(Latin uses exactly the same letters we do, our alphabet is the Latin one)

 

[Kiga]

What I've learned from this thread is what you have to say only matters if you're willing to hammer your same ideas and same arguments over and over again without really adding anything new. Oh, and extra points if you throw in something about how your idea is actually the most empirically obvious or even the only rational choice even when most of it is subjective.


Are any of you getting tired of this yet? Are there any thoughts on where you see this going?

You talk about "subjective", there are subjective points in my idea and I know it, I just wait for someone to point it out, so that we could continue the debate but no one ever attack them. Instead of that they always attack unassailable point so that we returns to the beginning. The problem is when you put logic in front of people who want to be right, they always deviate.

 

[Fzero]

Seems I do Latin up on the top left circle of this Venn.


Quite a few are the same then

Latin is at the top right, top left is Greek.

(Latin uses exactly the same letters we do, our alphabet is the Latin one)

Doh! Shows what I know eh


I thought that was the English version in top right ...well then Latin is fine with me.


Honestly though, I'm not that bothered how it ends up, my higher preference would be a dark button with colour glyph, whatever the glyph might end up being. Just wouldn't really want all colour buttons like on snes or old Xbox360.


But seems most also agree that option would be nicer anyway

 

[_wb_]

No. Greek letters are not specific to graphing calculators, not any more than Latin letters are specific to, say, chemical elements.

 
The only common place that people see Greek characters in daily life is in math. So yes, it is specific.


 

From Wikipedia:

Greek symbols are traditionally used as names in mathematics, physics and other sciences.

Astronomy
Greek letters are used to denote the brighter stars within each of the eighty-eight constellations. In most constellations the brightest star is designated Alpha and the next brightest Beta etc.

International Phonetic alphabet
Several Greek letters are used as phonetic symbols in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA).

Use in naming student fraternities and sororities
In North America, many college fraternities and sororities are named with combinations of Greek letters, and are hence also known as "Greek letter organizations". This naming tradition was initiated by the foundation of the Phi Beta Kappa Society, in 1776.

In particular, these are some of the uses in science (not mathematics) for some of the letters:

Δ represents:

• the angle that subtends the arc of a circular curve in surveying
  
• the maximum degree of any vertex in a given graph
• the difference or change in a given variable, e.g. ∆v means a difference or change in velocity
• sensitivity to price in mathematical finance
• distance to Earth, measured in astronomical units
• heat in a chemical formula
• the degrees of freedom in a non-pooled statistical hypothesis test of two population means

Π represents:

• osmotic pressure
  

Φ represents:

• the work function in physics; the energy required by a photon to remove an electron from the surface of a metal
• magnetic flux
  
• the cumulative distribution function of the normal distribution in statistics
• phenyl functional group
• the value of the integration of information in a system (based on Integrated Information Theory)

χ represents:

• the chi distribution in statistics (χ
  
  is the more frequently encountered chi-squared distribution)
• the chromatic number of a graph in graph theory
  
• electronegativity in the periodic table
• the Rabi frequency
• the spinor of a fundamental particle
• the Fourier transform of a linear response function
• the Sigma vectors in the unscented transform used in the unscented Kalman filter
• sometimes the mole fraction

Ψ represents:

• water potential
  
• the wave function in the Schrödinger equation of quantum mechanics
• the stream function in fluid dynamics
• yaw angle in vehicle dynamics

Ω represents:

• the Omega constant
  
• an asymptotic lower bound related to big O notation
• in probability theory and statistical mechanics, the set of possible distinct system states
• the SI unit measure of electrical resistance, the ohm
• the rotation rate of an object, particularly a planet, in dynamics
• a solid angle
• a baryon
• the right ascension of the ascending node in celestial mechanics
• the density parameter in cosmology

 

[LEOXD]

So, if we want to make both Latin-, Greek- and Cyrillic-letter-using people happy, it should be something out of the middle (ABEHKMOPTXY). That would allow the common ABXY (which suddenly perfectly makes sense, the first and last two letters in the set) in some configuration plus 2 more (maybe M [map] and H [home]? KM as they would be logical [KM exactly in the middle]? ET as they would be logical [ABE are the first 3, TXY the last 3]?). 

That said, as we have a QWERTY keyboard which even sucks for any language that has diacritics/umlauts, we maybe shouldn't care too much about non-Latin-letter-using people.

BTW, we're spinning in circles for many pages. This needs a poll.

 

[Klumpen]

This thread reads like most people want greek letters only because a few guys here repeat themselves and copy them over and over again.

 

[Fzero]

Well noticed LEOXD


I wonder if that's why abxy were chosen originally for other systems?


Edit: nope it was chosen by Nintendo originally, suspected as a future-proofing solution


http://www.pushclicktouch.com/blog/?p=132

 

[Kiga]

This thread reads like most people want greek letters only because a few guys here repeat themselves and copy them over and over again.

That's false. Why don't you open a poll topic?

 

[_wb_]

Well noticed LEOXD


I wonder if that's why abxy were chosen originally for other systems?

I think it started with just A and B. Then when two extra buttons were added, someone decided that X Y looked cooler than C D. I don't think there is more to it than that.

 

[comradekingu]

I dont think telling anyone what to press is the issue. Top left and right, mid left and right, bot left right. Works even if they are blank.

Or you could go on colour alone (if thats avail) Nobody has ever asked what button to press in the irc or the forum or anywhere else. Ive had people rage over the button layout not adhering to

>insert holy grail here.

Of which there are many, so you cant win there.

Also i think people who emulate games dont really look at buttons all that much.

 

[bzar]

If anyone makes a poll, be sure to make it multiple choice

 

[God Ginrai]

They're not more limiting than Greek characters. Did you even read my other posts? I've probably pushed against the Greek character suggestions more than anyone else in this topic. It should be quite obvious that when I said that your suggested layout was limiting, that I was comparing it to ABC XYZ (Saturn Layout), any of the numerical suggestions, colors, or even Suits. And that's because each button logically fits with the others. The Pandora layout + 2 others does not have any logical connection between the first 4 buttons and the 2 extra buttons. There's a disjoint there that doesn't work.

Did you read what I wrote and what I was replying to? what I was replying to was specific to the labeling of the buttons, not the physical layout. When you blasted me on that I thought you were talking about the labeling of the buttons since that is what I was replying to.

 I wasn't talking about the physical positioning of the buttons either, but the labels. So yes, I did read what you wrote and what you were replying to.

No. Greek letters are not specific to graphing calculators, not any more than Latin letters are specific to, say, chemical elements.

 The only common place that people see Greek characters in daily life is in math. So yes, it is specific.

 

From Wikipedia:

Greek symbols are traditionally used as names in mathematics, physics and other sciences.

Astronomy

Greek letters are used to denote the brighter stars within each of the eighty-eight constellations. In most constellations the brightest star is designated Alpha and the next brightest Beta etc.

International Phonetic alphabet

Several Greek letters are used as phonetic symbols in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA).

Use in naming student fraternities and sororities

In North America, many college fraternities and sororities are named with combinations of Greek letters, and are hence also known as "Greek letter organizations". This naming tradition was initiated by the foundation of the Phi Beta Kappa Society, in 1776.

In particular, these are some of the uses in science (not mathematics) for some of the letters:

Δ represents:

• the angle that subtends the arc of a circular curve in surveying
• the maximum degree of any vertex in a given graph
• the difference or change in a given variable, e.g. ∆v means a difference or change in velocity
• sensitivity to price in mathematical finance
• distance to Earth, measured in astronomical units
• heat in a chemical formula
• the degrees of freedom in a non-pooled statistical hypothesis test of two population means

Π represents:

• osmotic pressure

Φ represents:

• the work function in physics; the energy required by a photon to remove an electron from the surface of a metal
• magnetic flux
• the cumulative distribution function of the normal distribution in statistics
• phenyl functional group
• the value of the integration of information in a system (based on Integrated Information Theory)

χ represents:

• the chi distribution in statistics (χ
  
  is the more frequently encountered chi-squared distribution)
• the chromatic number of a graph in graph theory
• electronegativity in the periodic table
• the Rabi frequency
• the spinor of a fundamental particle
• the Fourier transform of a linear response function
• the Sigma vectors in the unscented transform used in the unscented Kalman filter
• sometimes the mole fraction

Ψ represents:

• water potential
• the wave function in the Schrödinger equation of quantum mechanics
• the stream function in fluid dynamics
• yaw angle in vehicle dynamics

Ω represents:

• the Omega constant
• an asymptotic lower bound related to big O notation
• in probability theory and statistical mechanics, the set of possible distinct system states
• the SI unit measure of electrical resistance, the ohm
• the rotation rate of an object, particularly a planet, in dynamics
• a solid angle
• a baryon
• the right ascension of the ascending node in celestial mechanics
• the density parameter in cosmology

 Nice long post. However, copying wikipedia's article about Greek symbols does not prove their use in daily life. I don't know about you, but I don't even know what Osmotic Pressure is, much less that it used a Greek character. Every single example in that list except for GLOs and the International Phonetic Alphabet is from the Sciences or Math. Those are not used in daily life. So your only examples from that list that are left to consider are the GLOs and the International Phonetic Alphabet. The IPA is not known by everyone, so that doesn't count for being used in daily life. And GLOs could possibly meet that criteria, but only for a certain age group. Also, GLOs are a US thing, so it doesn't apply for outside the US as a daily life example.

That being said, your giant wall of text completely failed the "challenge".

Well noticed LEOXD

I wonder if that's why abxy were chosen originally for other systems?

Edit: nope it was chosen by Nintendo originally, suspected as a future-proofing solution

http://www.pushclicktouch.com/blog/?p=132

That's how Nintendo decided ABXY, however Sega likely already had their six button controller in development by that time, since the Sega Genesis/Megadrive came out 2 years before the Super Nintendo with a 3 button controller.

If anyone makes a poll, be sure to make it multiple choice

Yes, that way we see all the ones people prefer. If it doesn't allow multiple choices, then one that might have been everyone's second choice will get no votes.

-God Ginrai

 

[LEOXD]

Well noticed LEOXD


I wonder if that's why abxy were chosen originally for other systems?


Edit: nope it was chosen by Nintendo originally, suspected as a future-proofing solution http://www.pushclicktouch.com/blog/?p=132

 
I think it started with just A and B. Then when two extra buttons were added, someone decided that X Y looked cooler than C D. I don't think there is more to it than that.

Well, big companies tend to overthink. E.g. on how to place phone push buttons: http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol39-1960/articles/bstj39-4-995.pdf (proposed designs are at page 999)


I think that Nintendo specifically chose letters from this set as more people knew the letters and then decided on XY over other combinations as it looks cooler (=slightly better for marketing) and is also future-proofing. This might also explain Sony's behavior: Even more people know how to call the cross/square/circle/triangle symbols.

 

[TrashyMG]

@God Ginrai...  Okay so there is a disappointment between the current Pandora layout and what ever letters would be used in it's place?.. Since I doubt a Sega Genesis/Saturn layout will fit in the current amount of space I don't see it really as a problem. Not to mention I wouldn't be too un-receptive of the additional buttons outside of what the Pandora already has to have some more inventive labeling.
 

 

[_wb_]

No. Greek letters are not specific to graphing calculators, not any more than Latin letters are specific to, say, chemical elements.

 
The only common place that people see Greek characters in daily life is in math. So yes, it is specific.

[wall of text with examples of non-math usages of Greek characters]

 
Nice long post. However, copying wikipedia's article about Greek symbols does not prove their use in daily life. I don't know about you, but I don't even know what Osmotic Pressure is, much less that it used a Greek character. Every single example in that list except for GLOs and the International Phonetic Alphabet is from the Sciences or Math. Those are not used in daily life. So your only examples from that list that are left to consider are the GLOs and the International Phonetic Alphabet. The IPA is not known by everyone, so that doesn't count for being used in daily life. And GLOs could possibly meet that criteria, but only for a certain age group. Also, GLOs are a US thing, so it doesn't apply for outside the US as a daily life example.


That being said, your giant wall of text completely failed the "challenge".

You claimed that they are only commonly used in math. I gave counter-examples.

Some people are linguists, biologists, physicists, astrologists, historians, college students, etc. in daily life. Sure, not in all professions you occasionally use Greek letters, but the list is certainly larger than just "mathematicians".

Of course not everyone uses Greek letters in daily life. Lots of people don't even use Latin letters in daily life, their job may not require a lot of reading and writing. Some people are illiterate. Chinese people may not be familiar with A B X Y or know how to pronounce the names of those letters.

The point is that a relatively large section of the Pandora/Pyra demographic may have at least a vague notion of some Greek letters -- compared to runes, Chinese characters, or Hebrew, I think the Greek alphabet is much more common. If you're interested in a Pandora/Pyra, it's likely that you're relatively well-educated, and maybe even have a background in (computer) science.