Action button labels

[Exophase]

So, is everyone agreed on leaving L1/L2 and R1/R2 as named? Because I don't think I've seen any suggestions for the shoulder buttons.

 

[_wb_]

Or just say A Button and A Key... *facepalms*

This is exactly what I've been thinking the whole time while reading through this thread. Action buttons are buttons, keyboard keys are keys, and disambiguation be damned!


Sticking with ABCXYZ buttons makes a lot more sense to me than arbitrarily using Greek letters, dice, polygons or other sets of symbols that have different names in different countries and are awkward to talk or type about.


If it therefore comes down to either the Sega 6 button layout or Pandora 4 button layout with 2 extra buttons, it presumably depends on how badly existing software is broken by using Sega style, and whether it can be patched to accommodate the change in button positions.

I described a method to modify existing Pandora software in a way that makes it work well on both Pyra and Pandora here: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15778-pandorapyra-applications-usrsharepandyra/


Of course that requires existing software to be modified -- something that may or may not actually happen.


For a stand-alone game controller, I think the SEGA layout makes a lot of sense. It would not necessarily be the most innovative choice to copy that layout, but there's no reason to be different just for the sake of being different.


The Pyra is not a stand-alone game controller though. It also has a keyboard. Some people consider "buttons" and "keys" to be two concepts that are so fundamentally different that there is no way anyone could confuse one for the other, but I'm not one of them. Keys are buttons and buttons are keys. The PageUp key and the Y button are the same physical piece of plastic on the Pandora. Also, I don't want to have to add the word "button" or "key" all the time. Compare these hypothetical help screens:


With non-ambiguous action buttons (Greek letters in this example):


Q   Quit


A   Apply


B   Build


C   Clean up


CTRL-B   Bold


CTRL-C   Copy


CTRL-V    Paste


CTRL-Z    Undo


Ω   Confirm

χ    Cancel


Π   Back


CTRL-Δ   Zoom in


CTRL-χ    Zoom out


With ambiguous action buttons (SEGA layout in this example):


Q key:   Quit


A key:  Apply


B key:   Build


C key:  Clean up


CTRL-B key:  Bold


CTRL-C key:  Copy


CTRL-V key:   Paste


CTRL-Z key:   Undo


B button:   Confirm


A button:   Cancel


X button:   Back


CTRL-Y button:   Zoom in


CTRL-A button:   Zoom out

 

[_wb_]

So, is everyone agreed on leaving L1/L2 and R1/R2 as named? Because I don't think I've seen any suggestions for the shoulder buttons.

Yes, I think that makes most sense.

 

[milkshake]

I really really don't like the idea of greek symbols for action buttons is just feels all wrong I would much prefer the use of standard letters like most classic and modern games consoles since there purpose is actually for playing games and lots of the consoles the pyra will emulate also have standard letters for controllers.

I don't see why we have to introduce a new layer of confusion just because it may fit some sort of greek theme for the pyra.

 

[_wb_]

I don't see why we have to introduce a new layer of confusion just because it may fit some sort of greek theme for the pyra.

You don't see why? You could start by reading the first post of this thread. "Fitting some sort of Greek theme" is not the goal here, it's just a nice side-effect of one of the proposals.

 

[T.T.]

I feel a poll is not a good idea.  I guess it's fine when ED really wants one, but please don't say a poll must happen.  Our arguments throughout this thread have been made to sway whoever reads them, but ED is the one we really want to decide from our presented arguments.  The majority of the people with accounts who happen to be looking at this thread should not be the people in absolute power of how this button layout turns out.  If we always did selective majority polls then every day would be pizza party day and we'd never be able to eat anything but pizza.  Please just let ED decide from the opinions we've seeded.

I think a poll would help. It allows ED to see what part of the community thinks. Also, one can participate in the poll without reading this thread. All they need is pictures of the layout and pick which one they like.

This thread is already a very good example of what we think, and we are the only ones who would be voting in a pole, unless people who haven't read all of our comments make an instant account to vote on this poll they haven't read about and still only have their original opinion about.  ED could also simply read this thread, our rationalizations and arguments, and then decide which he thinks is the best idea.

Yes, it is a good example of the thoughts of the few who have posted here, but you are assuming that every person who reads this thread will post. I'm sure there are a fair amount of people who read the thread, and don't post, but if there were a poll, they would vote, but not be bothered with posting. A combination of ED reading this thread and a poll would work well. ED would know the details behind the layouts, and also have a concise set of data for quick reference.

 

[_jr_]

Is my impression right that having English as your first language makes you less likely to like greek symbols?


BTW, have I missed the Hiragana proposal?

 

[Granitehead]

Is my impression right that having English as your first language makes you less likely to like greek symbols?

BTW, have I missed the Hiragana proposal?

Could be true, you are just a really culture less bunch.

 

[Tenka]

I feel a poll is not a good idea.  I guess it's fine when ED really wants one, but please don't say a poll must happen.  Our arguments throughout this thread have been made to sway whoever reads them, but ED is the one we really want to decide from our presented arguments.  The majority of the people with accounts who happen to be looking at this thread should not be the people in absolute power of how this button layout turns out.  If we always did selective majority polls then every day would be pizza party day and we'd never be able to eat anything but pizza.  Please just let ED decide from the opinions we've seeded.

I think a poll would help. It allows ED to see what part of the community thinks. Also, one can participate in the poll without reading this thread. All they need is pictures of the layout and pick which one they like.

This thread is already a very good example of what we think, and we are the only ones who would be voting in a pole, unless people who haven't read all of our comments make an instant account to vote on this poll they haven't read about and still only have their original opinion about.  ED could also simply read this thread, our rationalizations and arguments, and then decide which he thinks is the best idea.

Yes, it is a good example of the thoughts of the few who have posted here, but you are assuming that every person who reads this thread will post. I'm sure there are a fair amount of people who read the thread, and don't post, but if there were a poll, they would vote, but not be bothered with posting. A combination of ED reading this thread and a poll would work well. ED would know the details behind the layouts, and also have a concise set of data for quick reference.

The people who will vote in the pole without having commented with their opinions are not adding ideas, they're just changing the supposed value of our already present ideas which someone would have stuck in the poll.  The people majority is not intelligent or interesting, and what most of them want are not necessarily what later Pyra owners will enjoy most.  ED can see and judge the ideas presented just fine without them having arbitrary cred.

I'm worried that when a few of someone's strategic votes on the only option of one specific concept surpass the thinly deviating few options of another concept because that voter happened to be tireless enough to seek out more help for their side, ED will stop considering between the many good and bad ideas which have were already available here for him to choose from and instead just choose whatever one thing won in these people's poll, appropriate or not.

Edit: Corrected a couple tired typos.

 

[Caine]

I agree with Tenka that ED should just pick his preference.

Personally I never experienced any issues with the clash between an A button and an A key, so if he sticks to that then fine by me.

As this now 19 page thread shows quite clearly, button label selection is hard and a lot of brainpower goes into it.

Take for instance the playstation buttons, to most these are just a bunch of collored geometric shapes whereas their designer

had very clear semantics for each in his mind.

In fact, many if not most games actually follow these semantics (aside from the yes/no switch between Asia and the Western world).

I am not an industrial designer and as such not the most qualified to make a final decisions on this.

Instead I just generated some ideas based on intended goals for this community to chew on while I chew on the ideas of the others.

To finish this with a poll does not do the effort justice and bases the outcome on partially random majority preference rather

than on informed decision making. ED takes the majority of the risk in his decision making, so he has lot to gain by making well

informed decisions. I say, let ED choose. If he wants a poll as a sort of tiebreaker, then he will make one.

 

[pmprog]

As this now 19 page thread shows quite clearly, button label selection is hard and a lot of brainpower goes into it

No it doesn't - it shows you can't please everybody.

 

[_wb_]

I'm against having a poll to decide which layout to use. I'm in favor of having a poll to get a rough idea of how much support each option has from the existing community. In any case, I would make it a poll where you can select multiple options and the question is "which layouts are acceptable to you?".

 

[Caine]

No it doesn't - it shows you can't please everybody.

It is your right to take the pessimistic view on this.
I choose to look at the discussion from a more constructive point of view.

It is not about pleasing anyone, it is about trying to resolve a problem with ambiguous key labeling.

As is common in problem solving, we need to explore the design space to come to an acceptable solution,

that is what we are doing here.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I propose the following:

            

      :rolleyes:        

:blink:         :angry:

      -_-

 

[SNESFAN]

Whatever is decided, I don't think it matters. Just do not engrave the symbol if any into the buttons. Paint, silk screen, print, whatever. Just leave them flat to the touch.

 

[slaeshjag]

The Dingoo did that.

I don't have any symbols on my Dingoo's buttons anymore.

 

[Fzero]

I'd much rather they were engraved, nothing deep so it is too noticable to the touch, but just painting them will probably result in them fading off pretty quick with use, which wouldn't be good.


Perhaps like the xbox360 though, where the letter is within the button, so a top layer which is smooth to the touch but still wouldn't wear away and always remain visible

 

[_wb_]

I haven't noticed wear on my Pandora keyboard button labels yet (despite quite intense use), so if a similar technique would be used for the action buttons it would be fine I think.

Something more readable and less dirt-collecting than the labels on the Pandora action buttons would be nice though.

 

[Kiga]

With non-ambiguous action buttons (Greek letters in this example):


Q   Quit


A   Apply


B   Build


C   Clean up


CTRL-B   Bold


CTRL-C   Copy


CTRL-V    Paste


CTRL-Z    Undo


Ω   Confirm

χ    Cancel


Π   Back


CTRL-Δ   Zoom in


CTRL-χ    Zoom out


With ambiguous action buttons (SEGA layout in this example):


Q key:   Quit


A key:  Apply


B key:   Build


C key:  Clean up


CTRL-B key:  Bold


CTRL-C key:  Copy


CTRL-V key:   Paste


CTRL-Z key:   Undo


B button:   Confirm


A button:   Cancel


X button:   Back


CTRL-Y button:   Zoom in


CTRL-A button:   Zoom out

 

[_wb_]

With non-ambiguous action buttons (Greek letters in this example):

Q   Quit


A   Apply


B   Build


C   Clean up


CTRL-B   Bold


CTRL-C   Copy


CTRL-V    Paste


CTRL-Z    Undo


Ω   Confirm

χ    Cancel


Π   Back


CTRL-Δ   Zoom in


CTRL-χ    Zoom out


With ambiguous action buttons (SEGA layout in this example):


Q key:   Quit


A key:  Apply


B key:   Build


C key:  Clean up


CTRL-B key:  Bold


CTRL-C key:  Copy


CTRL-V key:   Paste


CTRL-Z key:   Undo


B button:   Confirm


A button:   Cancel


X button:   Back


CTRL-Y button:   Zoom in


CTRL-A button:   Zoom out

Why are you quoting me without adding anything to the discussion?