Action button labels

[Caine]

Greek letters have several issues going against them

• There are missing in many fonts, which is annoying when developing applications/games as it is harder to refer to them.
• People may be unfamiliar with their name which makes them harder to refer to.
• They somewhat break backwards compatiblity with Pandora and GP2X applications.

Sticking to the ABXY layout of the Pandora seems the best approach in my opinion.For the fifth and sixth button C and Z are the most trivial choice.

 

[Klumpen]

Sticking to the ABXY layout of the Pandora seems the best approach in my opinion.
For the fifth and sixth button C and Z are the most trivial choice.

Not possible in combination. Where would you put C and Z so it makes sense?

    Y    Z

A      B   C            oO?

    X

If you want to keep the old labels, you could go for:

    Y    C1

A      B   C2

    X

N64 reference, but who cares?

Alternative:

    Y    Z1

A      B   Z2

    X

 

[_wb_]

Greek letters have several issues going against them

• There are missing in many fonts, which is annoying when developing applications/games as it is harder to refer to them.
• People may be unfamiliar with their name which makes them harder to refer to.
• They somewhat break backwards compatiblity with Pandora and GP2X applications.

Most fonts do have Greek letters. All the fonts I can select in this forum editor have Greek letters. I prefer graphics as gui-hints anyway.

You wouldn't refer to the symbols by name, but by simply showing the symbol (Δ Π Ω χ, not DELTA PI OMEGA CHI). Just copy/paste them from somewhere if you don't have an input method available to enter them directly. If that is too much trouble just call them by their shape (TRIANGLE SQUARE CIRCLE CROSS).

Backwards compatibility is an issue indeed, but at least breaking it in this way is much better than breaking it having the same ABXY labels in a different position.

@Klumpen: C1/2 and Z1/2 would also be an acceptable solution. I don't really like that some of the buttons are just a letter and others are a letter+number, but it's better than having X, X1 and X2 (and keyboard X).

I still think Neelix' original point about the problem of having different buttons/keys with the same label is a very valid one. Distinguishing "buttons" and "keys" is only a partial solution, because in help screens etc. you don't want to repeat the word "key" or "button" all the time, you rather say "Press to continue or Q to quit" or something like that, not "Press the B button to continue or the Q key to quit". And even then the problem remains that keys are also a kind of buttons and buttons are also a kind of keys.


 


We have a unique situation since the keyboard and game controls are combined in a single device. That calls for a unique solution.

 

[Caine]

Not possible in combination. Where would you put C and Z so it makes sense?

Hmmm... good point, didn't consider that. Is that button layout already final?


One could also think about using currency symbols (though I would dislike "misplacing" the $).


E.g. clockwise starting at the top: Yen, Euro, Dollar, Won. 5th, 6th: Pound and Rouble.


(Euro, Dollar, Won ~= E, S, W for east, south, west)


Naturally font issues also apply here.


<edit>

Or perhaps from mathematical number classification systems:


The Natural numbers (ℕ), Integer numbers (ℤ), Rational Numbers (ℚ), Real Numbers (ℝ), Complex Numbers (ℂ) and maybe the empty set (∅). Since these are typset differently from the regular letters you can easily distinguish them, yet you can still call them by name or their corresponding regular letter.

   ℕ   ∅

ℚ   ℝ   ℂ 

   ℤ


To be honest, while I like the looks of it, the arguments I presented against greek letters hold even stronger against these.


</edit>

 

[Kiga]

Backwards compatibility is an issue indeed, but at least breaking it in this way is much better than breaking it having the same ABXY labels in a different position.

True.

I still think Neelix' original point about the problem of having different buttons/keys with the same label is a very valid one.

We have a unique situation since the keyboard and game controls are combined in a single device. That calls for a unique solution.

Agreed I was also thinking about it.

The fact we already have letters on the keyboards make it more ugly and senseless.

Action buttons must have theirs own labels. Copy the usual labeling is senseless.

 

[hipnotoad]

Sticking to the ABXY layout of the Pandora seems the best approach in my opinion.For the fifth and sixth button C and Z are the most trivial choice.

 Not possible in combination. Where would you put C and Z so it makes sense?     Y    ZA      B   C            oO?    X If you want to keep the old labels, you could go for:     Y    C1A      B   C2    X N64 reference, but who cares? Alternative:    Y    Z1A      B   Z2    X

I don't really care what the button labeling turns out as, but can we at least agree to arrange the buttons in a way in which we make n64 emulation comfortable? This device has the potential to be the first of its kind with enough buttons to map all n64 keys without having to substitute buttons with a nub/joystick direction. If the two extra buttons could be placed either "southwest" or "south" of the normal "diamond" array of the existing 4 buttons that would feel the most comfortable and balanced IMO.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Should we make a vote to ask people whether it is time to have a vote about the layout yet?

 

[God Ginrai]

I think you've mistaken me for someone who takes this thread seriously

 You're right, I have, since your idea actually solved something solution unlike Greek characters.

You wouldn't refer to the symbols by name, but by simply showing the symbol (Δ Π Ω χ, not DELTA PI OMEGA CHI). Just copy/paste them from somewhere if you don't have an input method available to enter them directly. If that is too much trouble just call them by their shape (TRIANGLE SQUARE CIRCLE CROSS).

 Yes, because people can just will the character into being. You have to type it somehow. Greek Characters are not on any standard keyboard. And if they don't have a name to call it by, they can't easily do a Google search to find the character.

Backwards compatibility is an issue indeed, but at least breaking it in this way is much better than breaking it having the same ABXY labels in a different position.

 This is a mere opinion. One that doesn't even make sense at that. With the Greek characters, you have to learn what each of the 4 buttons represent. With the Sega Saturn Mapping, you only have to know that A and X are swapped.

I still think Neelix' original point about the problem of having different buttons/keys with the same label is a very valid one. Distinguishing "buttons" and "keys" is only a partial solution, because in help screens etc. you don't want to repeat the word "key" or "button" all the time, you rather say "Press to continue or Q to quit" or something like that, not "Press the B button to continue or the Q key to quit". And even then the problem remains that keys are also a kind of buttons and buttons are also a kind of keys.

 This is still a non-problem. If the B button did not work, then the next thing you would try is the B key. There's only 2 options. And once you know which one applies, you'll remember it.

We have a unique situation since the keyboard and game controls are combined in a single device. That calls for a unique solution.

 KISS.

-God Ginrai

 

[Saber]

I don't think people will be confused if there are two X's or Y's on the Pyra, unless in their daily lives they have difficulty understanding how to use a simple household door knob. -_-

It's encouraging this thread continues to have some legs left to it and ideas and modifications of them are still being presented outside the usual decaying criticisms we commonly find.

Thus, to add to the pile:

1. B and A are normal size and wxyz, are smaller.

2. Dated looking trim ring(whatever you'd call it) which encircles the nubs and center keys on the Pandora has been removed allowing the face buttons(B and A) to shift over a millimeter and such to the left to fit the four smaller ones, wxyz.

3. Not to scale, but it tries to be. ^_^

 

[moxie]

Now, I do know that I recently said that I do not take this thread seriously, and I sure as hell don't (this is the worst case of bikeshedding I've seen, I think), but here I do say No. Nononono. We are not making a N64-machine, we're making a general machine. That up there makes PSX, SNES, and just about anything else with more than two active buttons suffer. Don't.

 

[Natsu]

I see no need to move the buttons from a cross.

 

[_wb_]

 

You wouldn't refer to the symbols by name, but by simply showing the symbol (Δ Π Ω χ, not DELTA PI OMEGA CHI). Just copy/paste them from somewhere if you don't have an input method available to enter them directly. If that is too much trouble just call them by their shape (TRIANGLE SQUARE CIRCLE CROSS).

 
Yes, because people can just will the character into being. You have to type it somehow. Greek Characters are not on any standard keyboard. And if they don't have a name to call it by, they can't easily do a Google search to find the character.

Just put Δ Π Ω χ somewhere prominently on the Pyra homepage / wiki / forum so you can easily find a place to copy/paste the symbols from -- you just Google search for "Pyra action buttons" or something like that and you'll find it. On the Pyra itself we could even make it so that if you press Fn+Δ (or some other keyboard combination), the actual symbol is produced. In many text editors there is an "insert special character" dialog, where Greek letters are not too hard to find. Or if copy/pasting is too much effort, you can use Unicode input: U+394 gives Δ,  U+3a0 gives Π, U+3a9 gives Ω, U+3a7 gives Χ. In case you forgot how to enter Unicode hex codes: in Windows you can enter the hex code and press ALT-x, in Linux you press CTRL-SHIFT-U [hex code] ENTER (or hold CTRL-SHIFT while entering the hex code and release it instead of pressing ENTER).

I agree that Greek letters are a bit more complicated than Latin ASCII characters, but at least they exist in Unicode. Try typing the PlayStation button labels!

 

[Kiga]

I don't understand why people don't use keyboard's buttons for specific games which need 6 buttons. And with 6 buttons it will be crowded and buttons will may be smaller.

But I'll not join that controversy.

 

[Caine]

I don't understand why people don't use keyboard's buttons for specific games which need 6 buttons. And with 6 buttons it will be crowded and buttons will may be smaller.

But I'll not join that controversy.

Most people who advocate 6 buttons want these for fighters.I strongly doubt that the Pandora keyboard has n-key rollover.

 

[pmprog]

I don't understand why people don't use keyboard's buttons for specific games which need 6 buttons. And with 6 buttons it will be crowded and buttons will may be smaller.

But I'll not join that controversy.

Due to the design of most keyboards on small devices, you're restricted on pressing multiple keys. The gaming buttons are wired independantly IIRC, so you can hit all of them at the same time without any problems.

 

[Kiga]

But you could use 4 actions  buttons with O and P it's just nearby

 

[God Ginrai]

I don't understand why people don't use keyboard's buttons for specific games which need 6 buttons. And with 6 buttons it will be crowded and buttons will may be smaller.

But I'll not join that controversy.

Most people who advocate 6 buttons want these for fighters.I strongly doubt that the Pandora keyboard has n-key rollover.

 Aside from that, O and P did not work well for the extra buttons. They worked ok at best.

Just put Δ Π Ω χ somewhere prominently on the Pyra homepage / wiki / forum so you can easily find a place to copy/paste the symbols from -- you just Google search for "Pyra action buttons" or something like that and you'll find it. On the Pyra itself we could even make it so that if you press Fn+Δ (or some other keyboard combination), the actual symbol is produced. In many text editors there is an "insert special character" dialog, where Greek letters are not too hard to find. Or if copy/pasting is too much effort, you can use Unicode input: U+394 gives Δ,  U+3a0 gives Π, U+3a9 gives Ω, U+3a7 gives Χ. In case you forgot how to enter Unicode hex codes: in Windows you can enter the hex code and press ALT-x, in Linux you press CTRL-SHIFT-U [hex code] ENTER (or hold CTRL-SHIFT while entering the hex code and release it instead of pressing ENTER).

 This is entirely over-complicating things. Now you are expecting people to visit the Pyra website to be able to get the character to copy? Also, they can only type it with the hex code if they know the hex code. I have very few hexcodes memorized, and I doubt I'm alone in this.

With Latin characters, you just look down at your keyboard and you can see a key for every button you need to express.

Thank you for teaching me how to do the Unicode hex codes in Linux, tho'. I have never known how to do that.

I agree that Greek letters are a bit more complicated than Latin ASCII characters, but at least they exist in Unicode. Try typing the PlayStation button labels!

You must have missed earlier when I mentioned that I never did like the Playstation controllers using shapes. However, I will mention that those are easy to type because they are basic shapes that everyone knows the names of.

-God Ginrai

 

[pmprog]

But you could use 4 actions  buttons with O and P it's just nearby

It's not too bad on the Pandora, but the Pyra's keyboard layout is going to be different (numbers have been moved underneath game controls for one)
But all by-the-by until we actually know what we're getting from ED

 

[_wb_]

I agree that Greek letters are a bit more complicated than Latin ASCII characters, but at least they exist in Unicode. Try typing the PlayStation button labels!

You must have missed earlier when I mentioned that I never did like the Playstation controllers using shapes. However, I will mention that those are easy to type because they are basic shapes that everyone knows the names of.

-God Ginrai

My Greek letter suggestion is using shapes that are quite similar to those basic shapes that everyone knows the names of.

How often do non-devs need to explicitly mention button names anyway? When you are talking about a game, don't you rather use game-specific words like "the jump button" or "the fire button" anyway? Or just "I jumped and fired", instead of "I pressed the A button and then the X button".

 

[Saber]

Now, I do know that I recently said that I do not take this thread seriously, and I sure as hell don't (this is the worst case of bikeshedding I've seen, I think), but here I do say No. Nononono. We are not making a N64-machine, we're making a general machine. That up there makes PSX, SNES, and just about anything else with more than two active buttons suffer. Don't.

I see no need to move the buttons from a cross.

Hey, I unequivocally agree with both of you. Just throwing ideas out my window is all.

If the nubs could be migrated inward a skosh along with the B and A buttons below, we could fit the small N64 "c" cross buttons. I'm all for it guys.

Back to something like this then: