Action button labels

[Hồng Thất Công]

^ Nope, _wb_ also indicated English letters within the Greek ones so I don't see a problem.

Edit:  My kids have been playing games since 2 years old when they didn't even know the letters yet but has no problem using the PS3 controls or any controls for that matter.  so there go your argument that people can't read Greek as my kids and I'm sure lots of other kids can't read a damn letter but no problem pressing the correct buttons to play games.

 

[Natsu]

Let me rephrase that. Greek letters for the buttons are stupid, period. It just plain unnecessary.

Explain

Visually unappealing and "hint buttons" even more so and most emulators use ABXY.

Greek letters are the future. I just can't understand why some people hate them, I really want to understand.

Saying they are the future, doesn't make them the future.

^ This is not backwards compatible with the Pandora, X and A are swapped. That is a very bad idea. Imagine a playing a Pandora game on the Pyra that says "Press [X] to confirm or [A] to abort". That would be really confusing. If we would use Greek letters (without the small backwards-compatibility hint labels), you may not know where that [A] button is supposed to be, because on the Pyra it is Π, but at least you don't get weird swapped around instructions.

I really didn't see you point. What does it matter if it swapped? With Pandora software, A will still be A and X will still be X.
Getting confuse between the keyboard and action buttons is a stretch and really seem like a non issue.

Edit: My kids have been playing games since 2 years old when they didn't even know the letters yet but has no problem using the PS3 controls or any controls for that matter. so there go your argument that people can't read Greek as my kids and I'm sure lots of other kids can't read a damn letter but no problem pressing the correct buttons to play games.

Then what's the point of changing letters.

 

[God Ginrai]

^ Nope, _wb_ also indicated English letters within the Greek ones so I don't see a problem.

Within 3 of them. And if anything, that makes it even more confusing if you do understand Greek, since Delta represents D, not Y, Pi represents P, not A, Omega represents Ō, not B, Gamma represents G, not r, and Nu represents N, not v. (And Chi is technically ch, even if it looks like an X)

Also, unlike _wb_ claims, you can't spell Pyra with the buttons that way.

Oh, and English letters within the Greek ones would defeat this purpose _wb_ had for suggesting these buttons. Since now there would be two buttons a player may think of when they see "A", "B", "Y", or "X".

-God Ginrai

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Let me rephrase that. Greek letters for the buttons are stupid, period. It just plain unnecessary.

Explain

Visually unappealing and "hint buttons" even more so and most emulators use ABXY.

On the contrary, I think it's very appealing and different from other devices/controls out there.

Edit: My kids have been playing games since 2 years old when they didn't even know the letters yet but has no problem using the PS3 controls or any controls for that matter. so there go your argument that people can't read Greek as my kids and I'm sure lots of other kids can't read a damn letter but no problem pressing the correct buttons to play games.

Then what's the point of changing letters.

Then what's the point of not changing them to Greek?  The point is it doesn't really matter once you get used to them just like anything else.

^ Nope, _wb_ also indicated English letters within the Greek ones so I don't see a problem.

Within 3 of them. And if anything, that makes it even more confusing if you do understand Greek, since Delta represents D, not Y, Pi represents P, not A, Omega represents Ō, not B, Gamma represents G, not r, and Nu represents N, not v. (And Chi is technically ch, even if it looks like an X)


Also, unlike _wb_ claims, you can't spell Pyra with the buttons that way.


Oh, and English letters within the Greek ones would defeat this purpose _wb_ had for suggesting these buttons. Since now there would be two buttons a player may think of when they see "A", "B", "Y", or "X".

-God Ginrai

See my post #24.  It is just a matter of getting used to things (unless you've reached the level of incompetent and can't learn anything anymore ).  Like the Pandora keyboard.  Lots of people complain about the keyboard but they love it

 

[God Ginrai]

Shenmue, as I pointed out, it has nothing to do with getting used to things. _wb_ suggested the Greek letters as a solution to what he thought was a problem "buttons with the same names". However, not everyone knows the names of the greek letters. While this does not cause a problem using the system, it does cause a problem communicating instructions. To solve this, _wb_ suggested including Latin Letters within the Greek letters. However, doing this brings the problem _wb_ was trying to solve back, hence solving nothing.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Ugh you guys are posting faster than I can post replies.

Not everyone knows what Greek letters are called. This will lead to problems in communication.

It is not that hard to get over having a key named A and a button named A. If something tells me to press A and it doesn't work when I press the button, the next thing I'll do is try the key. If the key works, then I'll remember it uses the key. It's not rocket science. And trying to complicate everything like _wb_ is doing is just not worth it.

-God Ginrai

Feel free to make a suggestion of your own for the labeling of the 6 buttons. I've already pointed out that the Sega Genesis layout (X Y Z A B C) is not a good idea, and I could not come up with anything else myself, but if you have a good labeling proposal, please share it!

If you don't know how the letters are called, that's fine. You only need to compare symbols to see which ones match, you don't need to know their name. It does not matter whether you call it Delta or Triangle, Omega or "Circle with an opened door in the bottom" or "Weird letter O", Pi or "Square without a bottom". As long as people who are making software or writing documentation for it know how to write Δ Π Ω X, it's fine. We can just put the symbols somewhere on the website or wiki so you can select and copy-paste them.

^ This is not backwards compatible with the Pandora, X and A are swapped. That is a very bad idea. Imagine a playing a Pandora game on the Pyra that says "Press [X] to confirm or [A] to abort". That would be really confusing.

Bullshit. We've done just fine on the GP2X, Wiz, and the Pandora understanding that in emulation. This is no different.

-God Ginrai

1. We've done just fine? People have been complaining about the button confusion all the time!

2. The GP2X, Wiz and Pandora all use the same position for A, B, X and Y. That is a good thing -- it means that you can play GP2X/Wiz games on the Pandora (using GINGE) without button confusion. Why do you want to change now?

3. I think one of the goals of the Pyra is to be backwards-compatible. So it should run most Pandora software out of the box. I don't think about Pandora and Pyra as two different platforms, but rather as one big platform (like the CC, ReBirth and 1GHz Pandoras today).

 

^ This is not backwards compatible with the Pandora, X and A are swapped. That is a very bad idea. Imagine a playing a Pandora game on the Pyra that says "Press [X] to confirm or [A] to abort". That would be really confusing. If we would use Greek letters (without the small backwards-compatibility hint labels), you may not know where that [A] button is supposed to be, because on the Pyra it is Π, but at least you don't get weird swapped around instructions.

I really didn't see you point. What does it matter if it swapped? With Pandora software, A will still be A and X will still be X.
 

Oh sure, you can also do that. Then the buttons on the Pyra would work like this:

         PgUp

PgDown  - End

        Home

and all games that use the ABXY keys as a second dpad would have left and down swapped around.

I was assuming that was clearly not desirable, so I assumed you would only change the label, not the keycode.

Also, unlike _wb_ claims, you can't spell Pyra with the buttons that way.

Of course Gamma and Nu represent G and N, but in an appropriate font, they can look like r and v. So granted, it is a bit far-fetched and uses a very strange mix of Greek, Latin and "visual" letters, but you can in fact spell "Pyra" (ΠYΓA), "Pandora" (ΠAνΔΩΓA) and "DragonBox" (ΔΓAΓΩνBΩχ) using the symbols I proposed. But that is not important at all, it's just a geeky easter egg kind of thing.

 

[Natsu]

On the contrary, I think it's very appealing and different from other devices/controls out there.

How about we stick what the majority find appealing and are use to? ABXY letters

that are used in most emulators?

Then what's the point of not changing them to Greek?  The point is it doesn't really matter once you get used to them just like anything else.

Most emulators use ABXY and they are the most recognizable.

 Like the Pandora keyboard.  Lots of people complain about the keyboard but they love it

I seen people complaining about it still.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Let's vote!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

 

[bzar]

How about we stick what the majority find appealing and are use to? ABXY letters

that are used in most emulators?

You're quick to decide you're in the majority. Source?

 

[Natsu]

Oh sure, you can also do that. Then the buttons on the Pyra would work like this:

PgUp

PgDown - End

Home

and all games that use the ABXY keys as a second dpad would have left and down swapped around.

I was assuming that was clearly not desirable, so I assumed you would only change the label, not the keycode.

I don't see why the software can't be change for that.

You're quick to decide you're in the majority. Source?

How about all the game systems and gamepads that have ABXY?

 

[_wb_]

On the contrary, I think it's very appealing and different from other devices/controls out there.

How about we stick what the majority find appealing and are use to? ABXY letters

that are used in most emulators?

Then what's the point of not changing them to Greek?  The point is it doesn't really matter once you get used to them just like anything else.

Most emulators use ABXY and they are the most recognizable.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that it's not just the symbol set that matters, but also the symbol positioning?

Here is a little analogy:

- Should we make it a QWERTY or DVORAK or AZERTY or QWERTZ keyboard?

- Let's use an A-Z keyboard, everyone knows those letters!

- Yes but there are different layouts, which one should we use?

- No no, all of them use the letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. Let's just do that too.

Oh sure, you can also do that. Then the buttons on the Pyra would work like this:


PgUp


PgDown - End


Home


and all games that use the ABXY keys as a second dpad would have left and down swapped around.


I was assuming that was clearly not desirable, so I assumed you would only change the label, not the keycode.

I don't see why the software can't be change for that.

The point is that we want to be able to run Pandora software without modifications on the Pyra. And we want to be able to release software that works on both the Pandora and the Pyra.

 

[Kiga]

Greek letters are the future. I just can't understand why some people hate them, I really want to understand.

Saying they are the future, doesn't make them the future.

You're not enough competent to understand why I said that, you  need to ask instead of making conclusion.

I will explain once again my point of view:

• Greeks letters perfectly fit Pyra. Because it is math/geek, and Pyra is a greek name.
• It is ogirinal but seems natural like

  They are just characters, they look similar to the PSX buttons and they are distinctive enough to differentiate...  I don't see the problem.

• And people who don't know greek name still can say square/triangle/circle/X.
• Also name isn't a big deal like

  My kids have been playing games since 2 years old when they didn't even know the letters yet but has no problem using the PS3 controls or any controls for that matter.  so there go your argument that people can't read Greek as my kids and I'm sure lots of other kids can't read a damn letter but no problem pressing the correct buttons to play games.

My position for greek letters isn't for usefulness but for appearance. Pyra's identity. Consistency will give it a strong identity and a strong identy will make it easily touch people and last.

Greek alphabet have to do with Pyra identity because of greek alphabet=math=geek .

So by adding another features which is in resonance with his identity (geek) it will make his identity stronger.

If you chose number or romanian letters or square/triangle/circle/X. It would be neutral and banal.

If you chose symbol unconnected to Pyra identity. It will weaken his identity because Pyra will be "that consol with weird symbol"

We want Pyra's future to be growing and the growing path is greek letters because it makes is identity so itself grow.

That's why I said:

-Greek letters are the Future,

but also

-romanian letters & numbers & square/triangle/circle/X are the Past,

-others options are Off-topic.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

^ You forgot one thing Greek:  The Pyra circuitboard designer is also Greek

 

[Neelix]

Personally I'm all for labelling the buttons Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins and Del (assuming those functions are assigned to the last two keys)  That has several things going for it:

• Easily read and recognised symbols
• A, B, X and Y can be mapped as needed, without clashing with the labels.
• No clash between keyboard key names and gaming button names.
• Don't need a reference to initially find those keyboard functions.

I don't mind the Greek letters idea,   though I'm not completely sold on using Chi. (too similar to the Latin X for my taste, the font used would need to clearly distinguish the two)

As for people not knowing the names of the Greek letters, that's easily solved,  just make it prominently documented.  Create a clear and pretty info-graphic showing the correspondence, then put it in the quick start guide, on front page of the wiki,  in a pinned topic on the forums,  and perhaps even incorporate it into the default wallpaper.   If people don't know the names of those Greek letters to start with they soon will.

- Neelix

 

[bzar]

You're quick to decide you're in the majority. Source?

How about all the game systems and gamepads that have ABXY?

That does not prove the majority find them appealing. Not here, not globally. It's just what has been used, maybe out of convention. Who knows.

 

[_wb_]

Personally I'm all for labelling the buttons Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins and Del (assuming those functions are assigned to the last two keys)  That has several things going for it:

• Easily read and recognised symbols
• A, B, X and Y can be mapped as needed, without clashing with the labels.
• No clash between keyboard key names and gaming button names.
• Don't need a reference to initially find those keyboard functions.

I don't mind the Greek letters idea,   though I'm not completely sold on using Chi. (too similar to the Latin X for my taste, the font used would need to clearly distinguish the two)

Yes, putting Home/End/Pgup/Pgdn labels somewhere on or near those action buttons would be useful (and perhaps also Shift/Ctrl/Alt labels on the shoulder buttons).


But in my opinion those labels should not be too prominent and they should not be the main "name" for those buttons. That would diminish their role as gaming controls too much. And it would be rather awkward to have to write game help screens for native games and have to use names like PageUp and PageDown for the main action buttons.


As for the Chi: I agree that it would be best to use a font that somehow differentiates it from a Latin X, e.g.

χ     or   χ


or something like that.

 

[LEOXD]

Personally I'm all for labelling the buttons Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins and Del (assuming those functions are assigned to the last two keys

That must be really big buttons or a really tiny font if you want to fit that on the buttons.

 

[Neelix]

Yes, putting Home/End/Pgup/Pgdn labels somewhere on or near those action buttons would be useful (and perhaps also Shift/Ctrl/Alt labels on the shoulder buttons).


But in my opinion those labels should not be too prominent and they should not be the main "name" for those buttons. That would diminish their role as gaming controls too much. And it would be rather awkward to have to write game help screens for native games and have to use names like PageUp and PageDown for the main action buttons.

Yes, well I wasn't really expecting that particular opinion to be a popular one. *wry smile*

As for the Chi: I agree that it would be best to use a font that somehow differentiates it from a Latin X, e.g.

χ     or   χ


or something like that.

Odd... That second one looked like a normal X in the original message, but not when quoted in the message editor.  (Though I prefer the first style anyway, as it's much more distinctive)

- Neelix

 

[Neelix]

Personally I'm all for labelling the buttons Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins and Del (assuming those functions are assigned to the last two keys

That must be really big buttons or a really tiny font if you want to fit that on the buttons.

Not really - compare with the labels on the rest of the keyboard and it may even end up being a bigger font for being alone on the key.

- Neelix

 

[God Ginrai]

Feel free to make a suggestion of your own for the labeling of the 6 buttons. I've already pointed out that the Sega Genesis layout (X Y Z A B C) is not a good idea, and I could not come up with anything else myself, but if you have a good labeling proposal, please share it!

I did make my own suggestion. You just conveniently left it out of your "summary" like all the other suggestions from that topic. And as I mentioned earlier, there is no reason why the Sega Genesis layout is any more difficult to use than when you're using the Pandora with any emulator.

If you don't know how the letters are called, that's fine. You only need to compare symbols to see which ones match, you don't need to know their name. It does not matter whether you call it Delta or Triangle, Omega or "Circle with an opened door in the bottom" or "Weird letter O", Pi or "Square without a bottom". As long as people who are making software or writing documentation for it know how to write Δ Π Ω X, it's fine. We can just put the symbols somewhere on the website or wiki so you can select and copy-paste them.

 That's so not true. If there isn't an established term for it, it leads to tons of variations, and then people are spending more time commenting on what they mean rather than actually talking about what happens when you press Pi.

1. We've done just fine? People have been complaining about the button confusion all the time!

2. The GP2X, Wiz and Pandora all use the same position for A, B, X and Y. That is a good thing -- it means that you can play GP2X/Wiz games on the Pandora (using GINGE) without button confusion. Why do you want to change now?

3. I think one of the goals of the Pyra is to be backwards-compatible. So it should run most Pandora software out of the box. I don't think about Pandora and Pyra as two different platforms, but rather as one big platform (like the CC, ReBirth and 1GHz Pandoras today).

 You're going to have your so-called "button confusion" whether we change the buttons or not, because there is no button configuration that matches every system. And as both I and Exophase have pointed out, this button confusion is honestly not even an issue. It takes all of 3 seconds to make the connection that A = X and X = A, and away you go!

Also, unlike _wb_ claims, you can't spell Pyra with the buttons that way.

 Of course Gamma and Nu represent G and N, but in an appropriate font, they can look like r and v. So granted, it is a bit far-fetched and uses a very strange mix of Greek, Latin and "visual" letters, but you can in fact spell "Pyra" (ΠYΓA), "Pandora" (ΠAνΔΩΓA) and "DragonBox" (ΔΓAΓΩνBΩχ) using the symbols I proposed. But that is not important at all, it's just a geeky easter egg kind of thing.

 Pi and A are the same button. That's like saying that you can match one girl exclusively to each guy when you only have 2 girls and 3 guys, and then you tried to call the first girl a different name and match her with guy #3.

Why do you refuse to acknowledge that it's not just the symbol set that matters, but also the symbol positioning?

Here is a little analogy:

- Should we make it a QWERTY or DVORAK or AZERTY or QWERTZ keyboard?

- Let's use an A-Z keyboard, everyone knows those letters!

- Yes but there are different layouts, which one should we use?

- No no, all of them use the letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, Z. Let's just do that too.

 Except in your example, the users have to learn the positions of over 40 buttons. In reality, the user will have to learn 6.

[...]

That's why I said:

-Greek letters are the Future,

but also

-romanian letters & numbers & square/triangle/circle/X are the Past,

-others options are Off-topic.

 It is utterly ignorant posts like these that make it hard for me to take you seriously. Are you honestly trolling?

Personally I'm all for labelling the buttons Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, Ins and Del (assuming those functions are assigned to the last two keys)  That has several things going for it:

• Easily read and recognised symbols
• A, B, X and Y can be mapped as needed, without clashing with the labels.
• No clash between keyboard key names and gaming button names.
• Don't need a reference to initially find those keyboard functions.

 Not bad, but I'd much rather have my game buttons read as game buttons.

on front page of the wiki,  in a pinned topic on the forums,

Yes, because that worked so well to stop the posts requesting we port X closed-source software to GP2X/Wiz/Pandora.... -_-'

-God Ginrai