Action button labels: poll

[_wb_]

Actually all options have problems -- see the first post and the thread it refers to. They all have different problems, but there is not a single choice that has no downsides at all.

I'm curious what people see as the downside of alphanumeric combinations. Note that the example given isn't the only way to do it. Tenka suggested using consecutive numbers with a single letter so G1-G6 for example. (I chose G for gaming, but most other letters would do except for F, L or R)


- Neelix

I can come up with some potential downsides:

- two characters per button instead of one character/symbol, some would consider that to be more complicated / less elegant

- someone might think that e.g. G2 means "first press G, then press 2"

- mentally they might be confused with the number keys or the F-keys

- not backwards compatible with Pandora

- does not correspond to any emulated system

- there is no single "natural" ordering of the keys (in such a button layout, which one is the "fifth" button?)

- the labels don't have a "personality", it's a bit "boring"

- the labels don't have a natural associated semantics, if I need buttons for YES, NO, MENU, SHOOT etc there is no way the button label can be associated with those actions

I'm not saying that those are important downsides or that I assign a big weight to them, but it looks like some people do. I personally voted alphanumerical labels to be "acceptable", but not "preferable".

 

[Kiga]

Don't forget what exophase wrote that if there were less Latin lettered choices that in practice more people are actually in favour of a Latin button set is just the specific layout that differs.


So maybe we should be focusing on Latin layout but focusing the vote on layout of those characters instead.

False.

It's a multiple choice and there are a lot of Greek who support also Latin and nothing said that ones who support Latin would support another Latin in case of Greek vs Latin. So don't say senseless things please!

 

[Neelix]

I'm curious what people see as the downside of alphanumeric combinations. Note that the example given isn't the only way to do it. Tenka suggested using consecutive numbers with a single letter so G1-G6 for example. (I chose G for gaming, but most other letters would do except for F, L or R)

 
I can come up with some potential downsides:


- two characters per button instead of one character/symbol, some would consider that to be more complicated / less elegant


- someone might think that e.g. G2 means "first press G, then press 2"


- mentally they might be confused with the number keys or the F-keys

Possible, but you've just pointed out the precedent, we already have keys named for other such combinations, which is part of why this makes so much sense to me.

- not backwards compatible with Pandora


- does not correspond to any emulated system

True, but I see the latter as unavoidable. The former is also unavoidable if the issues I have with the layout on the Pandora are to be resolved.

- there is no single "natural" ordering of the keys (in such a button layout, which one is the "fifth" button?)

Perhaps not but I'd say that's true of most of the suggested layouts. My recommendation would be 2 rows of three, numbered left to right, proceeding from bottom to top if all 6 buttons are numbered sequentially. (the "fifth" button would be the middle of the top row in such a layout)

- the labels don't have a "personality", it's a bit "boring"

There is that, though I don't necessarily see that as a problem. The same could be said of ABXY.

- the labels don't have a natural associated semantics, if I need buttons for YES, NO, MENU, SHOOT etc there is no way the button label can be associated with those actions

Which is also true of ABXY. I don't see this as being particularly important. I'd go so far as to say that attaching such semantics to individual button labels may cause more problems than it solves if the software uses a different layout.

I'm not saying that those are important downsides or that I assign a big weight to them, but it looks like some people do. I personally voted alphanumerical labels to be "acceptable", but not "preferable".

*nods* Fair enough.


- Neelix

 

[milkshake]

Don't forget what exophase wrote that if there were less Latin lettered choices that in practice more people are actually in favour of a Latin button set is just the specific layout that differs.

So maybe we should be focusing on Latin layout but focusing the vote on layout of those characters instead.

False.

It's a multiple choice and there are a lot of Greek who support also Latin and nothing said that ones who support Latin would support another Latin in case of Greek vs Latin. So don't say senseless things please!

I disagree especially since more people think Latin letters are OK compared with other symbols

 

[Kiga]

Because people who think Latin are OK don't think other symbols are OK. Contrary to those who think other symbols are OK  and think Latin are also OK.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Wow! Choosing Action Buttons is as crazy as chosing a SoC!

 

[Klumpen]

*cough*

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15631-mipi-woes-good-design-ideas-and-headaches/page-4#entry316024

 

[Granitehead]

I think throwing out the lower half for a second vote is the most democratic i.e. best way to proceed.

 

[God Ginrai]

Because people who think Latin are OK don't think other symbols are OK. Contrary to those who think other symbols are OK  and think Latin are also OK.

That's not true. I actually voted for both "Latin Symbols are OK" and "Other Symbols are OK", but that's because I support things like Suits, dice, etc. If there had been the choices "Latin Symbols are OK", "Greek Symbols are OK", and "Non-Latin or -Greek symbols are OK", I would have voted for "Latin Symbols are OK" and "Non-Latin Symbols are OK". I believe there are others like me who voted for both but do not want Greek letters.

-God Ginrai

 

[klapse]

"Press button X" versus "Press key X" is pretty clear to me.

 

[WizardStan]

Also context matters. If you're playing a native game and it simply says "press X to shoot" your first thought will probably be the more readily accessible X button on the right rather than the X on the keyboard.

If you're in a DOS or Amiga emulator and it says "press X to shoot" I'm going to remember that these systems didn't have game buttons, they had keyboards, so the X it is referring to must be the keyboard.

If you're playing an emulated game and it says "press X to shoot" I need to know what X maps to on the controls, but this is true regardless of what goes on those buttons.

 

[Kiga]

Because people who think Latin are OK don't think other symbols are OK. Contrary to those who think other symbols are OK  and think Latin are also OK.

That's not true. I actually voted for both "Latin Symbols are OK" and "Other Symbols are OK", but that's because I support things like Suits, dice, etc. If there had been the choices "Latin Symbols are OK", "Greek Symbols are OK", and "Non-Latin or -Greek symbols are OK", I would have voted for "Latin Symbols are OK" and "Non-Latin Symbols are OK". I believe there are others like me who voted for both but do not want Greek letters.

No one talked about Greek Letters in my post. Also milkshake are false, I didn't said that Latin letters vs Greek Letters would make Greek Letters win, but nothing indicates that Greek wouldn't win again.

 

[Tenka]

"Press button X" versus "Press key X" is pretty clear to me.

It definitely isn't clear in my font.  I'm pretty happy with that Greek layout, but I want the X button to be swapped for something less of another X button.

 

[Exophase]

It definitely isn't clear in my font.  I'm pretty happy with that Greek layout, but I want the X button to be swapped for something less of another X button.

He didn't use a different character, he used the words "button" and "key" to describe which X it is.

 

[milkshake]

Lol wrong person

 

[Tenka]

It definitely isn't clear in my font.  I'm pretty happy with that Greek layout, but I want the X button to be swapped for something less of another X button.

He didn't use a different character, he used the words "button" and "key" to describe which X it is.

I'm pretending I was making a point of that difference not standing out to me either.

 

[_wb_]

Because people who think Latin are OK don't think other symbols are OK. Contrary to those who think other symbols are OK  and think Latin are also OK.

That's not true. I actually voted for both "Latin Symbols are OK" and "Other Symbols are OK", but that's because I support things like Suits, dice, etc. If there had been the choices "Latin Symbols are OK", "Greek Symbols are OK", and "Non-Latin or -Greek symbols are OK", I would have voted for "Latin Symbols are OK" and "Non-Latin Symbols are OK". I believe there are others like me who voted for both but do not want Greek letters.

-God Ginrai

True. Also, I think I should have written "Unique symbols" instead of "Other Symbols", and "Keyboard letters" instead of "Latin letters", because that was what I actually intended -- should the labels be unambiguous or not. Arabic numbers and Alphanumerical combinations were not yet poll options initially, so I didn't think about those. For the purpose of the first question, please consider "Arabic numbers" to be a kind of "Latin letters" (since they're equally ambiguous), and "Alphanumerical combinations" to be a kind of "Other Symbols" (even though they contain Latin letters, as a combination they're a unique and unambiguous label).

Also, I want to point out that besides the "big" labels on the buttons, I think it's a good idea to have small-print labels as well, either on the case or on the button itself. These small-print labels should point out the non-game function of the key (Home/End/PgUp/PgDn and two more). For backwards compatibility, the small-print label could also include the button name on the Pandora (like this: http://people.cs.kuleuven.be/~jon.sneyers/tmp/action_buttons.png). However, if the "big" button labels already use the symbols A B X Y in different spots (like in the SEGA-style, Extended SNES and maybe Colored Letters proposals), I wouldn't do that, because it would do more harm than good (imagine 3 buttons/keys labelled in some way with each of those letters!).

 

[Agrajag]

I don't know if this has already come up in the preceding billion posts on this subject, but what about simply using upper case for keyboard keys and lower case for action buttons? abc xyz looks different enough from ABC XYZ to avoid any confusion.

Unless of course you think someone is going to read "press a to jump" and think "press a what to jump?"

Failing that, I don't think anyone has suggested runes yet...

 

[God Ginrai]

I don't know if this has already come up in the preceding billion posts on this subject, but what about simply using upper case for keyboard keys and lower case for action buttons? abc xyz looks different enough from ABC XYZ to avoid any confusion.

Unless of course you think someone is going to read "press a to jump" and think "press a what to jump?"

Honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with this. In the next poll, maybe we should have some way to indicate if you are fine with this?

Failing that, I don't think anyone has suggested runes yet...

comradekingu did.

-God Ginrai

 

[Neelix]

I don't know if this has already come up in the preceding billion posts on this subject, but what about simply using upper case for keyboard keys and lower case for action buttons? abc xyz looks different enough from ABC XYZ to avoid any confusion.

Visually they are different...  Conceptually and nominally they are the same.   I don't see any point in making a purely visual change,  as it only partially addresses the issues that led to this discussion in the first place and not to the extent that that it would make any difference.

- Neelix