Action button labels: poll 3 (final poll?)

[Kiga]

[17:01:44 | 2014-03-12] < Ziz> They were loooong discussions about this, EvilDragon. With Pros and Cons and much ignoring of arguments.

[...]

[17:01:56 | 2014-03-12] < EvilDragon> Yeah, didn't follow them at all

 I would like to see EvilDragon here.

 

[Natsu]

 I guess you miss the part that said it would be more work for the devs and old system + 2 extra buttons layout is his favorite?

That's along with a big majority of people saying the same.

 Not only that, but that seems like sarcasm that he doesn't "follow them at all".

 

[Kiga]

 I guess you miss the part that said it would be more work for the devs and old system + 2 extra buttons layout is his favorite?

That's along with a big majority of people saying the same.

It wouldn't be a big work.

The fact is people who is opposed to Greeks letters are VERY opposed because they don't understand why we should change THEIR pandy's layout. That's why there are lot more people who post and are for Latin letters.

 

[Ziz]

The fact is people who is opposed to Greeks letters are VERY opposed because they don't understand why we should change THEIR pandy's layout. That's why there are lot more people who post and are for Latin letters.

In fact the people, which are for the greek layout, post most. A new idea with pictures of it every two days. Most of the latin layout proponents just vote and leave the thread alone afterwards.

However there were so many arguments against and for latin layouts and for and against the greek layout. Do I really have to repeat them all? Just read all 4-5 threads about this.

I understand your arguments. I brought own arguments. IMO my arguments are stronger than yours. What is your problem now?

 

[Grench]

I guess you miss the part that said it would be more work for the devs and old system + 2 extra buttons layout is his favorite?

That's along with a big majority of people saying the same.

 It wouldn't be a big work.

The fact is people who is opposed to Greeks letters are VERY opposed because they don't understand why we should change THEIR pandy's layout. That's why there are lot more people who post and are for Latin letters.

Nope. You've got it wrong. It would be a -lot- of work. Each and every piece of software that was written or ported for the Pandora would potentially need to be touched up. Are you going to do it all personally?

Also, some of us do not like the Greek letters at all. Myself included.

If the Pandora didn't exist, I would still NOT want Greek letters on the Pyra. I find them ugly, annoying, prone to confusion, not present on my keyboard, etc...

The fact that we already have a device in the family (Pandora) that has an existing software base with keys lettered in Latin simply seals the deal. It makes it -simple-. I -like- simple.

There is simply no legitimate reason to change them to Greek beyond what a few people consider to be more aesthetically pleasing to them.

In the end, they're carved indents in plastic. They're not going to be, nor do they need to be, particularly pretty. They need to be usable - preferably by the majority of the user community - with the existing software base.

 

[Caine]

What about using the D and P buttons as the additional two? For DragonBox and Pyra.

Perhaps this helps to visualize the pattern:

 

[_wb_]

Actually, changing labels in help screens is not really a big effort. At least not compared to upscaling the artwork for higher res, properly threading stuff to take advantage of the second core,  re-thinking the game button mapping to take into account that there are 2 extra shoulder buttons, 2 more game buttons, and clickable nubs, etc.

Anyway, it's nice to think about "all the work the devs have to do", but please don't use that as an argument. You'll notice that I'm not the only dev who thinks departing from the Pandora layout is acceptable.

Can we now please move forwards and try to improve the proposals we have so far?

As for the "pure Latin" proposals: I think I like Ziz' ABXY WZ proposal most -- at least it tries to make some kind of sense.

I still think a "pure Latin" labeling is not a good idea though, because it is boring and not original at all, but mostly because of Neelix' "confusion with keyboard keys" argument. Greek labels solve that problem, but there is too much opposition to a "pure Greek" labeling, and my attempt to have a "Greek+Latin" compromise also seems to have failed.

I think that the "Latin+elements" proposal (http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15880-action-button-labels-poll-3-final-poll/page-4#entry323706) is a good solution. Since it is based on Pandora Latin, communication and backwards compatibility are OK. By using graphical icons, it is possible for applications to unambiguously refer to the buttons. Also in spoken communication, you can talk about "the yellow button" or "the fire button" -- it does not matter much that some people will talk about "fire, air, water, earth" while others say "flame, wind, drop of water, planet earth", it will be clear what is meant.

By adding elements, the buttons have plenty of character/personality, which is nice when you're trying to map game actions to buttons in a way that makes sense and can be remembered (and that will be an important thing if we have 4 shoulder buttons and 6 action buttons instead of 2 and 4 -- it's nearly twice as many!).

 

[Caine]

As for the "pure Latin" proposals: I think I like Ziz' ABXY WZ proposal most -- at least it tries to make some kind of sense.

I have no problems with that one.

By using graphical icons, it is possible for applications to unambiguously refer to the buttons. Also in spoken communication, you can talk about "the yellow button" or "the fire button" -- it does not matter much that some people will talk about "fire, air, water, earth" while others say "flame, wind, drop of water, planet earth", it will be clear what is meant.

It resolves the ambiguity problem, but easy on the colors please. It makes the device look too much like a toy.

 

[_wb_]

By using graphical icons, it is possible for applications to unambiguously refer to the buttons. Also in spoken communication, you can talk about "the yellow button" or "the fire button" -- it does not matter much that some people will talk about "fire, air, water, earth" while others say "flame, wind, drop of water, planet earth", it will be clear what is meant.

It resolves the ambiguity problem, but easy on the colors please. It makes the device look too much like a toy.

You could reduce the saturation of the colors to make it look less like a toy. Or get rid of the color completely.


With a dpad and two nubs, there's no way you can hide that the Pyra can be used for gaming. I don't think a bit of color in the action buttons really makes that much of a difference. I don't mind if it looks like a toy, as long as it doesn't look like a cheap and stupid toy .

 

[Ziz]

Serious suggestion: A new poll, whether colours should be added to the buttons and maybe how:

• No colors
• letter colors
• whole button colors

To the "no toy"-argument. The pyra is a toy. Deal with it. Just look at the top rated and top downloaded applications in the pandora repository.

 

[Klumpen]

Seriously guys, how long do you want to continue discussing such minor stuff like ordinary button labeling? If you can fill hundreds of pages with that, what happens when it comes to real major decissions of the Pyra development? An entire Forum about one theme? :rolleyes:

Just let ED decide and it will be good. Afaik he already sayed that there will be no greek letters or other weird things you discuss since weeks here. It will be likely that the Pandora layout is choosen, which is simply logical for an successor device, not only for compatibility reasons.

 

[_wb_]

Serious suggestion: A new poll, whether colours should be added to the buttons and maybe how:

• No colors
• letter colors
• whole button colors

This could depend on the labeling that is chosen though. E.g. if it's going to be just Latin, I would be less inclined to add color than if it's Latin+elements.

Also, my "Latin+elements" proposal is kind of a mix between "letter colors" and "whole button colors".

 

[Caine]

You could reduce the saturation of the colors to make it look less like a toy. Or get rid of the color completely.

With a dpad and two nubs, there's no way you can hide that the Pyra can be used for gaming. I don't think a bit of color in the action buttons really makes that much of a difference. I don't mind if it looks like a toy, as long as it doesn't look like a cheap and stupid toy .

With not being a toy I don't mean it should not be (obviously) usable for gaming, I mean it should not look like something made of cheap plastics intended for a four year old.
FZero gave a nice example of a more reserved way of using colour. I don't think it should go much further than that. Also keep in mind that due to colour blindness the buttons should be easily recognizable even without colour (naturally you would choose colours wisely to avoid most issues).

Serious suggestion: A new poll, whether colours should be added to the buttons and maybe how:

• No colors
• letter colors
• whole button colors

To the "no toy"-argument. The pyra is a toy. Deal with it. Just look at the top rated and top downloaded applications in the pandora repository.

I can play games on my laptop, that does not make it a toy per se. Also see my response to _wb_ about what I meant with it.
Perhaps we should go a bit easy on the polls for the time being. Give people time to vote and discuss the ideas first.

 

[Exophase]

Actually, changing labels in help screens is not really a big effort. At least not compared to upscaling the artwork for higher res, properly threading stuff to take advantage of the second core,  re-thinking the game button mapping to take into account that there are 2 extra shoulder buttons, 2 more game buttons, and clickable nubs, etc.

Those things are all optional enhancements, much of which won't be utilized. But getting the button names right is kind of important.

 

[Ziz]

Actually, changing labels in help screens is not really a big effort. At least not compared to upscaling the artwork for higher res, properly threading stuff to take advantage of the second core,  re-thinking the game button mapping to take into account that there are 2 extra shoulder buttons, 2 more game buttons, and clickable nubs, etc.

Those things are all optional enhancements, much of which won't be utilized. But getting the button names right is kind of important.

Indeed. If I do a 1:1 port from pandora to pyra, I don't care about the second core... Even one core should be faster than the pandora cpu. Same for shoulder buttons and similar. With a 1:1 port I don't need more buttons overnight. And I would just scale up the whole screen content...

 

[levi]

Love it!

 

[Natsu]

P and D for the Extra 2 letters make sense.

 

[WizardStan]

For Delete and Pinsert, right?

 

[Neelix]

I still think a "pure Latin" labeling is not a good idea though, because it is boring and not original at all, but mostly because of Neelix' "confusion with keyboard keys" argument. Greek labels solve that problem, but there is too much opposition to a "pure Greek" labeling, and my attempt to have a "Greek+Latin" compromise also seems to have failed.

Except that that argument only applies to single letter label arguments. Greek lettering brings it's own issues.   Putting both Greek and single letter Latin labels on the same keys as alternate names just means that you have all the downsides of both systems in play.

Early on  I thought of using two letter syllables, but I couldn't think of a system of them that would make any kind of sense.  I still think that may be the way to go,   but I still haven't found any naming system I like and could recommend.  (The best I've come up with so far is Do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti. Though of course that system works better with 7 buttons. ) 

- Neelix

 

[levi]

Since Greek lettering seems to be doing so badly in the polls, how about borrowing from Latin? A few second declension endings perhaps:


us, i, um, os, o, is


(respectively, second declension masculine, nom, acc, dat in pairs of singular, plural)





Personally, I was never concerned that people would mistake the gaming buttons for the keyboard keys - by denoting one as buttons and the other keys confusion can be minimised.


My issue is the confusion that has arisen from the odd placement of the A button on the Pandora - some early software used A as the main button, then B became popular, and lately X seems to be the go-to button, at least when it isn't enter for direct PC ports.


But to be honest, PS-like notation doesn't help much - since both X and O can be used as the primary button. And these polls have shown me that I'm in a small minority being bothered by this, so I'll say no more about it.