Action button labels, again

[Mr_Loon]

I'm confused.

Why do some people believe ABXY is a superior choice to NESW?

From my quick perusal of this thread there are not many people who would need to think twice to know which button to press upon prompting if we used NESW.

Thus usability of the device is (very slightly) improved. Also NESW is both original and sensible, the sort of little thing that sticks in the mind of users and reviewers.

Adding PgUp PgDn etc makes the labelling of game buttons appear overly cluttered IMHO

As mentioned before this is no big deal, it is of course much more important that the buttons feel good and work well in a physical sense. I'd happily live with ABXY, but why use ABXY if a superior alternative exists?

 

[TrashyMG]

As mentioned before this is no big deal, it is of course much more important that the buttons feel good and work well in a physical sense. I'd happily live with ABXY, but why use ABXY if a superior alternative exists?

Superior is debatable, ABXY is known convention. NESW will still be a new concept, despite having the benefit of having direction. While most people know English, West in other languages starts with O, then in some languages O is also the first character to East as well... So where I'm heading with this is NESW may not be the best convention to introduce direction to non-english speakers. So you may as well stick with known convention such as ABXY.

 

[rygD]

For me it isn't so much that ABXY is better, just that it is what we are getting unless ED is open to change here.   If he is open to change, my opinion is to go with the most sensible option of marking what keypress is produced when pressing a button.

Neither ABXY or NESW is good on their own, but ABXY are widely used button labels for major consoles, and was present in the current form on previous handhelds.  NESW is not usually associated with gaming controls, and it doesn't work as well for non-English speakers.  If you have to choose one of the two, which is the better option, the new one that adds very little to the final product (and will only be used in a handful of games) or the one with history that is widely understood to represent gaming buttons?

I agree adding keyboard functions to the gaming buttons makes them look cluttered.  Kill ABXY, and just leave their keyboard markings.  It doesn't easily identify them as gaming buttons, but it adds much more than it takes away.  It does not detract from the actual experience of playing games as much as having mismatched ABXY markings and mappings, and NESW, or any other new markings, that are not currently used in any game, and those that will use it in the future are few.  At least keyboard functions will match up to mappings in games and emulators.

The superior alternative is to mark the buttons as what they actually are.  The reason to keep ABXY is because ED is the one making the call, and until he says otherwise it is best to assume he wants to keep them.

Edit: It seems TrashyMG beat me to some stuff.

 

[_wb_]

ABXY is not superior at all, the only reason to have those labels is backwards compatibility.

Home/End/PgUp/PgDn may not be æsthetically pleasing or "gaming-like", but it is an extremely functional way to convey the meaning of those buttons/keys (and how they will be called in any software that is not explicitly modified to call them something else), and that is the main goal of a label, isn't it?

Every other label suggestion would be nice to consider if we were in a "from scratch" scenario, but if "Pandora-compatibility" and "function above form" are two general principles that have to be respected, then ABXY + Home/End/PgUp/PgDn are needed, and there is not enough room for some extra label in addition to those two.

 

[TrashyMG]

@_wb_, I do like your idea of combo ABXY + Home/End/PgUp/PgDn if space on the buttons allows for it.

 

[_jr_]

I'd be very happy if we could get rid of ABXY. That never did make any sense for keys on a handheld computer that are bound to Home/End/PageUp/PageDn by default. But adding a label indicating the real binding is at least a step in the right direction.

 

[TrashyMG]

I'd be very happy if we could get rid of ABXY. That never did make any sense for keys on a handheld computer that are bound to Home/End/PageUp/PageDn by default. But adding a label indicating the real binding is at least a step in the right direction.

Well I could see a situation were the game buttons on the Pyra could actually be put into a real Joystick mode vs just a keyboard mode as the game buttons are on their own GPIOs and separate from the keyboard matrix.  However the Pandora was setup this way as well and a joystick mode really never came to be, so we will see how that will develop. 

 

[Saber]

I'd be very happy if we could get rid of ABXY. That never did make any sense for keys on a handheld computer that are bound to Home/End/PageUp/PageDn by default. But adding a label indicating the real binding is at least a step in the right direction.

For those who owned a Pandora, A was Home, B was End, and Y and X were PgUp and PgDn. They are beyond easy to recollect which is which and I see no reason to put itty bitty tiny letters, or symbols, on each face button. Same goes for the shoulder triggers. It isn't THAT difficult to remember the few inputs that aren't labeled. It shouldn't be anyways.  :blink:

 

[comradekingu]

Its impossibly hard when you dont know already, which is what people are dealing with. It failed on the pandora.

Much easier to adjust to the (better albeit changed), concept of having directional 87-keys when its not latin letters, or other irrelevant marking.

WizardS: Me being confused by X for X is no big deal, when X is at A or B is when everyone is confused, only to a lesser degree if you have been using gp2x or OP.

I'm confused.

Why do some people believe ABXY is a superior choice to NESW?

Because they think ABXY is _one_thing, when its two. (ABXY or BAYX) Sometimes they mean a third (BXYA) Which is backwards-compatibility with the most limited pool of games there is.

Further diminished by porting the games that do use BXYA.

ABXY in any orientation just means more foreward incompability than backward compatibility. Directional markings are always neutral, or better in the case of native games.

Most importantly directions translate a lot better to Home End PageUp and PageDn. NESW translate to direction, via a de-tour.

<^v> relate to direction natively, so you can focus on what matters. http://www.researchgate.net/publication/259512795_What_working_memory_subcomponents_are_needed_in_the_acquisition_of_survey_knowledge_Evidence_from_direction_estimation_and_shortcut_tasks

 

[ZXDunny]

Wow, I didn't know that people found the Pandora's face button layout hard to understand or use. References please? I'd like to read about this.

D.

 

[_jr_]

Whenever you take a piece of software that isn't Pandora/Pyra customized (i.e. 99.999% of software that would potentially run on the Pyra) and use it's builtin keymapper (or config file) it will force you to map PgDn when you want to use the key mistakenly labeled X. That isn't a major problem, but not repeating such mistakes is what is called progress. Either don't have it bound to a standard keyboard key (even more absurd with the low number of keys) or label it appropriately.

 

[comradekingu]

It comes up whenever a GP2X layout console is released. People seeing it for the first time is where it never makes any sense.

The people buying buying them are almost exclusively exposed to something else. They also continue predominantly using a 'something else' convention -system through emulation.

This is the problem:

The A is where X or Y is supposed to be

The B is where A or B is supposed to be

The X is where B or A is supposed to be

The Y is where Y or X is supposed to be

A is not the primary position of either

The pairs AB and XY are broken.

ZXCV is commonly used as buttons when using emulators on PC, so when you ask for X, that kicks in. (minor point)

I dont have that problem with <v^>, but if you wanted to distinguish, you could make it the 90 degree angles.

 

[TrashyMG]

So not really a big deal.

 

[_wb_]

So not really a big deal.

Exactly!

If it ain't life-threateningly broke, don't fix it!

Hey, why don't we put a 160x144 monochrome screen in the Pyra, and remove the keyboard, shoulder buttons and all that, and just keep the dpad, SELECT, START, A and B button? After all, that is a proven concept, millions of people could work with that just fine, so why change it?

 

[comradekingu]

It is broken, why not fix it?

 

[TrashyMG]

It is broken, why not fix it?

is it really broken?

 

[comradekingu]

As a wise prophet once said:

Spoiler

 

[rygD]

It is broken, why not fix it?

is it really broken?

yes

 

[comradekingu]

For every few times you have compatibility, it just ends up feeling weird. That will not change.

 

[TrashyMG]

It is broken, why not fix it?

is it really broken?

yes

How? if you are talking about the Pandora/GP2X style layout, sure it's not ideal if you are used to XBOX/Dreamcast style. Personally I have no issues switching between controllers styles.


A minor issue of remembering were some keys are doesn't mean we need Greek lettering, funny chevrons or Navigational directions. Is there any real legal reason we can't match the standard for ABXY?