Action button labels, again

[Natsu]

Please stop with the Greek symbols. Smh

I would propose to use the following Unicode symbols:

⌶ ⇞

⇤ ⇥

⌦ ⇟

That works for me.

Only that arrows makes it confusing for button combinations like fighters.

TL;DR.

Z Y
A B
W X
still makes most sense for me.

Well in that case, let's just do with this :

+     Y

    A    B

_     X

or this one (Shield/Android, PC, Xbox and DC compatible, widely used) :

+     Y

    X    B

_     A

or even this one (current Nintedo style, widely used too) :

+     X

    Y    A

_     B

As you can see, I'm all about the + and -. I don't think roman numerals would fit to the audience, and I've come to think that neither plain arrows or Unicode keyboard functions as the main markings would be of any good. Let's just use a classic console-like layout and print PageUp, End, etc under these. This way, we'll still know what they do, but we won't lose any potential customer in the process.

I don't mind Roman 1 and 2 or insert and delete.

NSEW does seem like a pretty sane suggestion, actually.

I like it.

Better than all the possible combinations of ABXY

Better that PYRA (RAPY)

more practical than colours

Better than weird symbols nobody recogises

Alpha-beta-gamma-delta seems like a bad idea vs playstation-like greek chars

NSEW is fine, even if my mind derps to NSFW. Oh and NW SW.

Or the Home etc. buttons, if you want it more PC like. Don't really prefer it.

sigh...

I'm sorry. I'm all out of likes today.

 

[WizardStan]

Or the Home etc. buttons, if you want it more PC like. Don't really prefer it.

I would also be happy with that, if the words can fit. I doubt we can get four letters on there but it's worth a try. We don't need to be all fancy with the labels, simply marking them "HOME" and "END" solve all the problems: easy to describe, does exactly what it says it does, can't be confused with anything else.

 

[comradekingu]

 

[Tenka]

Besides fitting with the rest of the keyboard by using labels that say what the buttons do, the label suggestion in the first post is also open to accommodating not only the two new little buttons, but any extra buttons a Pyra successor might have later on.  The compass directions thing isn't, it and the arrows comradekingu wants each add more rules for no reason, "new buttons later will need to also be cardinal directions," "new buttons later will need to also be arrows," those rules would limit the design freedom down the line.  Yes those are rules, they're not being mentioned but we know that "north south east west" and then "yellow red white" on three new buttons wouldn't work.  The symbols in _wb_'s first post look enough like directions to be handy now, but the only standard that they're pushing is "all buttons say what they do."

    ⇞
⇤   ⇥
      ⇟

-are the labels I'm supporting here, by the way.

 

[Neelix]

The compass directions thing isn't, it and the arrows comradekingu wants each add more rules for no reason, "new buttons later will need to also be cardinal directions," "new buttons later will need to also be arrows," those rules would limit the design freedom down the line.

What new buttons? There's no new buttons coming. We have 6, and at this point that's not going to change for the life-cycle of the product. Whatever we do here no more sets rules for future devices than the Pandora's layout does for the Pyra, and if that's the case, it's already too late and the precedent is already set.

- Neelix

 

[Mr_Loon]

I have a hard time believing that most peoples first association will be cardinal directions

Interesting, what do you think most peoples association will be with :


     N 


W      E


     S

It's hard for me to 'unsee' that these are the cardinal points of the compass.

@Tenka : Not sure I seed the need for more buttons or the logic in trying to design a system based around this possibility. However, There are plenty of ways of adding extra buttons and maintaining the compass theme, such as NE & SE for extra buttons to the right of the main 4 etc.

 

[Binky]

Might there be confusion over 'home' meaning 'go to top of page' in the PC sense, and 'home' meaning 'go to main menu' in the smartphone sense?

 

[Natsu]

The next step is obviously 8 face action buttons.

buttonclusterwhite.png

I might get them confused with 3,x,i,e,w,and m on the keyboard, but seriously, I don'tlike the way they look. How would the buttons be displayed? Through pictures?

Might there be confusion over 'home' meaning 'go to top of page' in the PC sense, and 'home' meaning 'go to main menu' in the smartphone sense?

"Home" would be surrounded by the other PC symbols. If any confusion, it should only be a small moment.

 

[comradekingu]

 

[Natsu]

1421743206132.jpg

I... I don't understand.

 

[_wb_]

Might there be confusion over 'home' meaning 'go to top of page' in the PC sense, and 'home' meaning 'go to main menu' in the smartphone sense?

Is there any smartphone that labels its physical or on-screen home button with the word "HOME"? I haven't seen a single one yet that does that.

 

[Natsu]

Might there be confusion over 'home' meaning 'go to top of page' in the PC sense, and 'home' meaning 'go to main menu' in the smartphone sense?

 Is there any smartphone that labels its physical or on-screen home button with the word "HOME"? I haven't seen a single one yet that does that.

I meant to say this too. No, I don't think there's any, or at least modern phones, that actually say home.

 

[Neelix]

Looking at one of _wb_'s latest keyboard layouts I reconsidered the symbols used for Home, End PgUp, and PgDn.  While I think I could get used to ⇱ and ⇲ as Home and End, I still don't like ⇞ and ⇟ as PgUp and PgDn.
To me, ⍐ and ⍗ would seem like better candidates. Thoughts?

- Neelix

 

[_wb_]

http://xahlee.info/kbd/home_end_key_cluster_arrangement.html

 

[Neelix]

http://xahlee.info/kbd/home_end_key_cluster_arrangement.html

That shows the symbols in use,  but doesn't give any indication how widespread they are.   It also doesn't change the fact that as  symbols they are not terribly intuitive ones for any that are not already familiar with them.  In that article the symbol is used along with the key name, not in isolation, so there is no need to guess at it's meaning.

- Neelix

 

[_wb_]

http://xahlee.info/kbd/home_end_key_cluster_arrangement.html

That shows the symbols in use,  but doesn't give any indication how widespread they are.   It also doesn't change the fact that as  symbols they are not terribly intuitive ones for any that are not already familiar with them.  In that article the symbol is used along with the key name, not in isolation, so there is no need to guess at it's meaning.

- Neelix

I point to that article mostly to show that having Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Del in a cluster without Ins is something that is sometimes done. In a sense, Del and Backspace are more related and more symmetrically opposite than Del and Ins, so making the two extra action buttons Del and Backspace could be a good idea.

 

[comradekingu]

While insert rarely is omitted, or not together with delete. Backspace is never on buttoncluster.

 

[_wb_]

While insert rarely is omitted, or not together with delete. Backspace is never on buttoncluster.

True, but then again, how many keyboards do you know with a dpad and action buttons?

 

[comradekingu]

Xbox-controller with attachment. That they are otherwise separate in my mind tells me they should remain so, when also the example I can think of doesnt mix the two.

Stick to what is known, stick to what works. Fix things that are broken. If you change a central concept you run the risk of failing on a basic level.

 

[_wb_]

Xbox-controller with attachment. That they are otherwise separate in my mind tells me they should remain so, when also the example I can think of doesnt mix the two.

Stick to what is known, stick to what works. Fix things that are broken. If you change a central concept you run the risk of failing on a basic level.

It would be a major waste to not use the "game" part in the keyboard. The dpad, action buttons and shoulder buttons are an excellent implementation of arrow keys, home/end/pgup/pgdn/something/something, and modifier keys. In many ways actually better than the way they are implemented on a normal keyboard.