Unofficial Keyboard Poll

_wb_'s layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/850cafe5b869738793f25ac95d73e2f9


  • Total voters
    15

ible

professional vim user
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I've only included the first keyboards for each post of this thread:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposals//URL]

and I've enforced the two-wide Pandora spacebar constraint, so if you didn't design for that, too bad.

Important note: even if you vote for a keyboard here, and it gets the majority, that doesn't mean it will make it into the final keyboard design.

Also, I apologize for any bias inherent in the questions. I wasn't planning on being the one to create this poll...
 
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 Since AltGr+shift has a different expected behaviour by default, and what you linked to is intended as just a way to remember what the primary key is (if you want it to be different than default)

 

If there are more than one default you could however do it similar to that   nr64german2.png  and get for example german.

 

Can you link to the layout without ä ö ü in the vote? voteboard.png

 

Edit: Changed the visuals columnclusterbuttons to what the others are using. I cant do it better anyhow.

 

Edit2: Will vote once it doesnt sway the polls.
 
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The layout-specific questions are biased indeed, but that's OK. It's a good way to force people to actually look somewhat closely at the proposals before they go to the overall vote.

Some remarks:

Questions about Grench's proposal:

  • "I like how each key shifts properly (especially for the Meta'd keys)". This is also a property of my proposal, and it is almost a property of ible's proposal (exception being < > =+ -_, but for those symbols the 'proper' location is kind of weird anyway).
  • "I'd prefer not to have 4 prints on any key (i.e., the number row is too busy)."  I selected this even though I have 4 labels on some keys in my own proposal. It sure is something to be avoided, but I think it's OK to have a few exceptions, in particular if the 4 symbols are small(ish) punctuation symbols so it should be possible to put all of them on one key and still have a reasonably big font size.
Questions about ible's proposal:

  • "I would prefer <>[]{} to be on the right side of the keyboard (even if it disturbs natural locations for ö, etc.)." I didn't select this even though I think it's nice to have all punctuation meta-keys clustered together on the right side. Especially if you use the keyboard Meta key (not the shoulder modifier). But I don't think it should disturb ö.
Questions about comradekingu's proposal:

  • "I would prefer to have a Meta (F-) button on the lower part of the keyboard." I think that in comradekingu's proposal, the Meta button is the one at R1, while the F-ing button is the one above START, and they're two distinct additional modifiers. So I picked this because I would like to have both a non-shoulder Meta button and a more accessible F-ing button (either on a shoulder or in the lower part); and really I don't want to have two distinct additional modifiers.
  • "I don't understand how the spacebar works to get : or /, but I could figure it out." Actually only the first part of that sentence. I don't think I could figure it out. More in general, I think comradekingu's proposal looks very nice, it's very much Scandinavian design at work here, but it introduces lots of weird icons and it seems rather hard to learn how to operate it by just looking at the labels, without using a reference handbook.
 
And again...


And again...


And again...
What do you mean? As far as I know, this is the very first forum poll about actual keyboard layout proposals. It's obviously not the first keyboard-related poll, but all of the previous polls had only questions about specific aspects of the keyboard design (e.g. single or double width space, which keys should be dedicated primary keys). That phase is over now: we have explored a lot of design aspects, discussed advantages and disadvantages of all those choices, and so on.

But this is the first poll with an explicit choice between full, finished proposals.
 
And again...

And again...

And again...
 What do you mean? As far as I know, this is the very first forum poll about actual keyboard layout proposals. It's obviously not the first keyboard-related poll, but all of the previous polls had only questions about specific aspects of the keyboard design (e.g. single or double width space, which keys should be dedicated primary keys). That phase is over now: we have explored a lot of design aspects, discussed advantages and disadvantages of all those choices, and so on.

But this is the first poll with an explicit choice between full, finished proposals.
My biggest point is: Why another unofficial? Why not waiting for ED for an official one?but-thats-none-of-my2.jpg

Keep on! ;)
 
ED doesn't have time to make an official one ;) .

The layout-specific questions are biased indeed, but that's OK. It's a good way to force people to actually look somewhat closely at the proposals before they go to the overall vote.

Some remarks:

Questions about Grench's proposal:

  • "I like how each key shifts properly (especially for the Meta'd keys)". This is also a property of my proposal, and it is almost a property of ible's proposal (exception being < > =+ -_, but for those symbols the 'proper' location is kind of weird anyway).
  • "I'd prefer not to have 4 prints on any key (i.e., the number row is too busy)."  I selected this even though I have 4 labels on some keys in my own proposal. It sure is something to be avoided, but I think it's OK to have a few exceptions, in particular if the 4 symbols are small(ish) punctuation symbols so it should be possible to put all of them on one key and still have a reasonably big font size.
Questions about ible's proposal:

  • "I would prefer <>[]{} to be on the right side of the keyboard (even if it disturbs natural locations for ö, etc.)." I didn't select this even though I think it's nice to have all punctuation meta-keys clustered together on the right side. Especially if you use the keyboard Meta key (not the shoulder modifier). But I don't think it should disturb ö.
Questions about comradekingu's proposal:

  • "I would prefer to have a Meta (F-) button on the lower part of the keyboard." I think that in comradekingu's proposal, the Meta button is the one at R1, while the F-ing button is the one above START, and they're two distinct additional modifiers. So I picked this because I would like to have both a non-shoulder Meta button and a more accessible F-ing button (either on a shoulder or in the lower part); and really I don't want to have two distinct additional modifiers.
  • "I don't understand how the spacebar works to get : or /, but I could figure it out." Actually only the first part of that sentence. I don't think I could figure it out. More in general, I think comradekingu's proposal looks very nice, it's very much Scandinavian design at work here, but it introduces lots of weird icons and it seems rather hard to learn how to operate it by just looking at the labels, without using a reference handbook.
Indeed, many of the comments can be directed towards other layouts.  In addition to the ones you mention, not having meta and shift both on the left side of the shoulders as well as the keyboard applies to mine equally as much as yours.

Regarding my layout, if people want to put <>{}[] on the right, without disturbing the location of ö on o, then yours is the better option.  I change the keyboard a little (shift ,. goes to ;: and move <> to meta other keys), because I think it makes more sense from a coding and a writing perspective.  That may not fly with our dear readers ;) .

Regarding comradekingu's, in practice, I figure that many people "could figure it out" by testing things with shift and meta and F-.  It is not ideal that it is hard to see what spacebar does without testing, but probably better spatial placement of the symbols (instead of all in a row) would help, without changing comradekingu's intentions.  It is also against ED's design criteria to have a hardware Fn key, but I'm not enforcing those restrictions (since I didn't exclude 4 prints per key, either).  At any rate, Fn+1 seems better for F1 anyhoo, but it does seem less than ideal to have two modifiers.
 
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Can the questions be deleted, or do they serve a purpose im not seeing?


It doesnt force anyone to do anything, it just puts the burden of reading through a lot of non-integral infromation on people.

People who are quite done with keyboard posts, as can be witnessed in this thread.

The time could be spent on actually looking at the layouts, not trying to understand wording and dealing with scenarios that arent even possible. If someone wants to have their say, that is, and has been possible.

Do include these layouts 

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c1448eeb58b83bcb4fd4ec94f453a8e1

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/39a66a3638ce58fe93b1b96ce10d0bf4

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a08aaddd5f8bff6bce928661ed411158

And delete the instructions present in the layout. No keyboard comes with instructions like that.

Trust me, nobody that ive shown the layouts to, understands a thing of what you have in the explanation.

F-keys fails for everyone but the most advanced users on mine. AltGr too.
 
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To me, the questions help people understand (some of) the strengths and weaknesses of the layouts.  Also, they are a way to poll for any small tweaks that people might like.
 
Please don't! :) . At least not mine. I don't think a "numbers down" layout makes any sense, it just looks like a horrible design mistake. If the physical layout of the keys would be 12-11-12-11 keys per row instead of the 11-12-11-12 which it is, then you could perhaps do something like that (i.e. move the number row from those proposals to the top), but with the current finalized physical layout, this just looks awful. And I'm not even taking double-width space into account here...
 
Doesnt have to say its yours. The other one is mine, but thats irrelevant too. Updated it.

It was popular enough. The US layout seems to be the diehard preference of some.

From a design-perspective the F11 and F12 stepped down looks out of place. Stepped down and indented even moreso.

The april-fools still has some merit http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=11025

But that fails for the current userbase. And im glad Gnome doesnt have a stronger foothold with the things they are doing.

It might work better for "ipad-users" level of skill though. Maybe someday the pandora/pyra/next can break into mainstream

(By the time F-keys will probably be gone anyhow)

I agree numbers at bottom is a strange choice, but at least it looks as if it the button arrangement was designed to be that way, rather than shoehorned in.

Since its a two thumb keyboard, numbers at bottom isnt actually worse. The numbers on a regular keyboard arent at the top because thats better, numpad is clearly better, but because space aligns with the thumbs.

There are other ways of doing numbers on desktop too, like ergodox and whatnot.
 
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We should keep all keyboard discussion in ED's official thread.  

By the way, here is my response in the other thread about leaving keys blank. I personally would rather not have to press keys or triggers of both Shift + AltGr/Meta for common symbols { } : ? ~ and others. Of course they still could be "hidden" as secondary backups under Shift + AltGr/Meta too. No reason why we couldn't do both an AltGr + key for colon and Shift + AltGr + key for colon.
 
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Grench's layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8112f24be6145d1062915d45af880b04

  •  
  •  I like how each key shifts properly (especially for the Meta'd keys).
  •  I wouldn't like having random international vowels printed on the layout, like Æ.
  •  I'd prefer not to have 4 prints on any key (i.e., the number row is too busy).
  •  No comment.
Wow - those are some pretty slanted response options for #2 and #3.  Very negative phrasing with no explanation of WHY they're that way or how that could be a GOOD thing.

The non-English symbols printed to the layout are NOT random and are NOT randomly placed.  This is an INTERNATIONAL device. Apparently we have a group who thinks that it MUST only have plain English on it because everyone who doesn't speak English can go pound sand.  It's an ethnocentric argument and holds no weight.  The presence of these symbols doesn't slow down or impede English use in any way.  It -does-, however, enable other languages to at least have their alphabet present without memorizing a pile of re-mappings. 


EVERY key on a FN/Meta + Shift keyboard has 4 potential mappings.  


Mapping 4 symbols to keys cannot be avoided if the keyboard is going to work properly with DosBox/QEMU.

Utilizing this fact allows non-English users of this INTERNATIONAL device to be able to USE the device.


This is an INTERNATIONAL device.  Having the symbols needed and easily found for languages beyond English is a -cool- and -neat- thing, not a disadvantage.  Those symbols do NOT prevent re-mapping that key/placement to whatever the end user wants them to map to.  It simply gives a symbol that is default-mapped to it so that nearly everyone can use their device out of the box without making learning English a pre-requisite.
 
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To me, the questions help people understand (some of) the strengths and weaknesses of the layouts.  Also, they are a way to poll for any small tweaks that people might like.
However, the questions in the poll have all been based on your personal view of the 'weaknesses' of other layouts and are slanted as such.  International symbols on my layout are a -benefit- to this international device.  Having 4 mappings to keys -enables- DosBox and QEMU to function properly.  There are solid positive reasons for the features that you're spinning as downfalls.
 
I gave every layout two "minuses" of things people might want to change (points 2 and 3 for each layout). Admittedly, it is biased towards what I see as things I'd want to change, or what I've heard some people mention in the keyboard threads. But if people don't want to change those things, they won't vote those things.

At any rate, I believe ED has said he doesn't want 4 prints per key, so it might actually be a design constraint. (In which case, we'll have to resort to some other designs.)

I don't think it will be hard to memorize mappings if keys are blank (as in _wb_ or mine), since you can make (almost) any mapping you want. E.g., Ä being on A seems quite easy to memorize, but you can change it to Å too. In some sense, I think that makes _wb_'s keyboard even more international than yours, since you can add any diacritics you want to many different letters...
 
I gave every layout two "minuses" of things people might want to change (points 2 and 3 for each layout). Admittedly, it is biased towards what I see as things I'd want to change, or what I've heard some people mention in the keyboard threads. But if people don't want to change those things, they won't vote those things.


At any rate, I believe ED has said he doesn't want 4 prints per key, so it might actually be a design constraint. (In which case, we'll have to resort to some other designs.)


I don't think it will be hard to memorize mappings if keys are blank (as in _wb_ or mine), since you can make (almost) any mapping you want. E.g., Ä being on A seems quite easy to memorize, but you can change it to Å too. In some sense, I think that makes _wb_'s keyboard even more international than yours, since you can add any diacritics you want to many different letters...
You made negative statements in a vacuum and requested people to agree with your negative statements.  That is the same methodology used in partisan campaign polling.  No qualifications or counter arguments were given to what is -gained- by these features.  You picked the most negative elements you could find and painted a picture where they are the only factors for consideration.  That is not how well thought out choices are made.

Instead of:

I wouldn't like having random international vowels printed on the layout, like Æ.

How about:

+It's a great benefit that people from all over Europe and the Americas can use this keyboard without having to compromise the English keyboard layout.  I realize that this device is an international effort and recognize that it is appropriate and good for people who speak languages other than English to have a decent experience using it.

Instead of:

I'd prefer not to have 4 prints on any key (i.e., the number row is too busy).

How about:

+It's a great benefit that the keyboard has the English keyboard symbol pairs preserved and laid out near their English keyboard positions so that they are easy to find and are compatible with DosBox and QEMU.

Maybe add on a few actual highlights?

+I like that it can be used either in the hands or when placed on a desk or in a future docking station.  This is only possible if the modifiers on the shoulder buttons are duplicated on the keyboard.

+I like that the modifier buttons on the shoulders on one side are the keyboard modifiers on the other so that they are easy to get to with the fingers from the opposing hands - such that modifiers can be reached with one hand and the selected key with the other.

+I like that the English keyboard's layout is preserved.  Symbols are very near their 'normal' locations, simply tucked under the main keys using a simple Fn modifier.

+I like that German, French and Spanish users can actually see symbols for and type their alphabet without having to guess secondary mappings.

+I like that I can re-map any key on the keyboard easily from it's stated mapping to whatever I want it to be, regardless of whether there is a key printed in that position or not.  Having something printed on the key, though, allows a visual mnemonic, so I can better remember what I mapped to where.

+I like that the F1-F12 key mappings are contiguous and that I don't have to go hunting for F11 and/or F12.

+I like how the non-English considerations are grouped together on the left side of the keyboard to make them easier to find or ignore at the user's discretion.

+I like how PgUp, PgDn, Home, End, Insert and Delete are grouped together just like they are on a 'Normal' keyboard.  It makes them easier to find.

+I like how there are physical controls for screen and keyboard backlighting and that I can send signals to the OS to turn on/off the additional hardware ports.

+I like that every physical key on a US101 keyboard is present and can easily be found.

I'm pretty sure each of the designers can generate a list of the benefits that their keyboards offer.

This poll with one 'positive' and two negative and a 'No Comment' bucket is not an effort to compare the options on their strengths and weaknesses.  This poll isn't going to result in anything useful and will only add fuel to the fire.
 
No poll is perfect, but I think this will help us get a rough idea of things, without making people wade through tons of pros/cons. People have seen the arguments for the keyboards, yours and mine included, so I tried to make the TL;DR version...
 
I suppose it doesn't matter but my current layout V2, which is in my sig, is not considered in this poll. The V1 shown was the original older one and V3 is another more extreme version of it and V2. I left it for ED to mix and match what he likes from all three specifically where ? and ' and " are.   
 
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