Unofficial keyboard layout poll (bis)

comradekingu's proposal, see http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposa

  • I LOVE this layout

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17

_wb_

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Yes, it's only two days after the first unofficial keyboard layout poll, but I still think it makes sense to have a new poll, since

  • Several people consider the first poll to be flawed/biased;
  • WizardStan has meanwhile made a proposal;
  • So far, not a lot of people have voted in the first poll, and several people have said that they don't intend to.

In this new poll, every proposal gets the same choices (basically just to indicate how well you like it). I put the proposals in alphabetical order this time, and of course I also included WizardStan's proposal.

For convenience, here are direct links to the current proposals:

 
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The version of ck's layout you are using is an old one with a single wide space.

Thanks for this.  I am going through them right now.
 
The version of ck's layout you are using is an old one with a single wide space.
As far as I understand, that's actually not an old one, but it's the up-to-date version of his proposal. He effectively has a single width space, that is, it is physically a wobbly double width key, but it is logically two keys: if you press it on the left it is space and if you press it on the right it is . : /   (period colon slash).
 
My mistake.  The board will come those tied together as a single key, and the key itself is one piece...
 
My mistake.  The board will come those tied together as a single key, and the key itself is one piece...
rygD, what "serious" flaws in my layout are you referring to? If it's the comma and period's location in the lower left corner, well, that's an outcome from the spacebar's positioning. My v3 layout however unlikely rectifies this for what it's worth. I worked with the canvas I was given.  :)
 
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Thank you _wb_ for giving us a MUCH more usable poll!

My mistake.  The board will come those tied together as a single key, and the key itself is one piece...
rygD, what "serious" flaws in my layout are you referring to? If it's the comma and period's location in the lower left corner, well, that's an outcome from the spacebar's positioning. My v3 layout however unlikely rectifies this for what it's worth. I worked with the canvas I was given.  :)
You asked...

DosBox/QEUMU incompatible.  (Symbol key pairs are broken.)

Three shift keys is redundant and a waste of space.

Four 'Alt' keys:  Two AltGr and Two Alt labeled keys means that the 'AltGr' is really a 'Fn/meta/other' button that is labeled wrong.

Insert key labeled as + is semi-illogical.

Delete key labeled as - is semi-logical.

Symbol key positions are far-flung from their 'standard' positions and can be hard to find.  It took a bit for me to find ~ (highly used in Linux command line.)

Now I'm asking.

For someone who ranked mine as 'very disappointed' or 'serious flaws', can you give me some feedback on that?  Be specific, be brutal.
 
Thank you _wb_ for giving us a MUCH more usable poll!

My mistake.  The board will come those tied together as a single key, and the key itself is one piece...
rygD, what "serious" flaws in my layout are you referring to? If it's the comma and period's location in the lower left corner, well, that's an outcome from the spacebar's positioning. My v3 layout however unlikely rectifies this for what it's worth. I worked with the canvas I was given.  :)
You asked...

DosBox/QEUMU incompatible.  (Symbol key pairs are broken.)

Three shift keys is redundant and a waste of space.

Four 'Alt' keys:  Two AltGr and Two Alt labeled keys means that the 'AltGr' is really a 'Fn/meta/other' button that is labeled wrong.

Insert key labeled as + is semi-illogical.

Delete key labeled as - is semi-logical.

Symbol key positions are far-flung from their 'standard' positions and can be hard to find.  It took a bit for me to find ~ (highly used in Linux command line.)

Now I'm asking.

For someone who ranked mine as 'very disappointed' or 'serious flaws', can you give me some feedback on that?  Be specific, be brutal.
Thank you "rygD".

I'm not interested in the popularity vote or winning the keyboard polls though, only in a useable keyboard for the Pyra. I succeeded because...

My layout has : at AltGr + . and AltGr + Shift + , which does make it compatible. 

It's a matter of opinion how pair ups should be. I think I coupled them up well.

My layout has one Shift key on the L2 shoulder(like on Pandora) and, for those like ED and myself who prefer it, two shift keys on the keyboard. This is called choice because some people do not use the shoulder buttons as often as others.

It has two Alt keys(Left Alt as the Start button like on the Pandora) and the other, Right Alt, on R2 besides R1's Right Control. Our AltGr on the Pyra is not Alt. 

Insert sort of makes sense as + because - does match well with Delete. More so than calling them z and c. Both are usually found together around Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down, which are ABYX.

Finally, symbol keys are roughly where they were on the Pandora, which much of the user base will transfer from.

Hey, if people want your layout then so be it. Good for them. They can chord themselves till the cows come home if they like. Shift + AltGr/Fn all they want for general symbols too.

I don't nor have I ever needed to convince others that there's doesn't work for mine to have merit. It has, and those who can see, will see it.   ;)    
 
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I don't get the endless keyboard layout threads. Surely it's getting tired now?

We will end up with a fairly satisfactory layout in the end. Not everyone will be pleased.
 
All we need now is votes from more people than the ones who havent already put their opinions in the layouts already.

Hopefully we can get some kind of idea about what makes sense as a whole. If its better to go with one thing fits all, offer something thats modifyable, something thats partly replacable, or just different things alltogether.
 
I don't get the endless keyboard layout threads. Surely it's getting tired now?

We will end up with a fairly satisfactory layout in the end. Not everyone will be pleased.
The idea is to end up with an optimally satisfactory layout, not just a fairly satisfactory layout. We're getting close.

Anyway, here are my brutal criticisms :)

comradekingu: Your wobbly space button feels more like a stubborn statement to criticize the double-width space bar design decision, than a serious proposal. Also, while I appreciate the "less is more" approach, I think you went too far with it. Also the abundance of strange new or obscure icons makes it look like Egyptian hieroglyphs trying their best to resist getting deciphered by a casual onlooker.

Grench: Æ and Œ are not important enough to deserve dedicated Fn keys. Unless you also have Å Ø à è é ù etc. There's nearly nobody who can really do anything with an Æ key if it doesn't also have Ø and/or Å, and afaik œ is only used by the French, who would much rather have a dedicated à, è or é key than a dedicated œ. Your Fn + number row is also littered with symbols that feel like they're there just because there was some free room. It feels very arbitrary, and while I'm sure there is a way to put all those symbols on those keys in a legible way, it will still be kind of a mess to look at. Your main labels on the action buttons (ABCXYZ) look very weird to me. A dedicated dead diacritic key is nice though.

Saber: why do you have dead grave and acute, but not dead umlaut and circumflex? And no, äöü is not enough umlauts for me, in my language ë and ï actually are way more important than äöü. There is not a single key free of "AltGr" labels to map other symbols to (say Æ or ç), without having a keymat with incorrect labels on them. Sure, you could memorize things like "§ is actually €,  ß is actually è, ü is actually é, ä is actually à, ö is actually œ, µ is actually ç, and dead grave is actually dead circumflex", but mnemonically that sucks. For German and English, your layout is OK though. Only it is very hard to guess what the action buttons actually do.
 
Thank you "rygD".
If you're only addressing one person, use a PM.
I'm not interested in the popularity vote or winning the keyboard polls though, only in a useable keyboard for the Pyra.
Which is what we're ALL after.
I succeeded because...
That is a point of debate.
My layout has : at AltGr + . and AltGr + Shift + , which does make it compatible. 

It's a matter of opinion how pair ups should be. I think I coupled them up well.
Nope - you're missing the grander picture by using two examples. Reality is that EVERY keyboard pair needs to line up for DosBox and QEMU to be happy. That includes having | on shift+\, ? on shift+/, ~ on shift+`, etc... You matched 2 symbols and claimed compatibility - it doesn't work that way.
My layout has one Shift key on the L2 shoulder(like on Pandora) and, for those like ED and myself who prefer it, two shift keys on the keyboard. This is called choice because some people do not use the shoulder buttons as often as others.
I'm one of the people who doesn't use the shoulder buttons as often. I would just as soon have -none- of the modifiers on the shoulders or center top set. However, that only works if we can get a centered space bar - which does not look likely. Having three shift keys means one is double-mapped, which is one too many in this constrained key set.
It has two Alt keys(Left Alt as the Start button like on the Pandora) and the other, Right Alt, on R2 besides R1's Right Control. Our AltGr on the Pyra is not Alt.
And you don't find that confusing in the slightest? We've got to call this 'Fn/Meta/whatchawannacallit' key something other than AltGr, because it simply does not behave as and isn't an AltGr.
Insert sort of makes sense as + because - does match well with Delete. More so than calling them z and c. Both are usually found together around Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down, which are ABYX.
I agree that they should be Insert and Delete to mate up with Home, End, Page Up and Page Down. However, by labeling them with the + and -, you are labeling them with something OTHER than their function. Then the user is off searching for the actual + and - keys which are located on the lower left of your keyboard on AltGr (Fn) + D and F, which is nowhere near the top-right area that a normal keyboard user would expect.
Finally, symbol keys are roughly where they were on the Pandora, which much of the user base will transfer from.
The Pandora's keyboard was a mix of compromises and random assignments to 'make fit'. We can do FAR better than that on the Pyra.
Hey, if people want your layout then so be it. Good for them. They can chord themselves till the cows come home if they like. Shift + AltGr/Fn all they want for general symbols too.
On your layout? Not really. Expected symbol pairing is broken. Example, + is not on shift+=. Chording AltGr+Shift+S does not result in +, unless you're hiding a S-ton of hidden mappings.
I don't nor have I ever needed to convince others that there's doesn't work for mine to have merit. It has, and those who can see, will see it.   ;)
Your work has has merit. All of the layouts that grew since you made your first one have stood on your shoulders to generate their advancements. However, as new requirements have been discovered, your layout has not kept up. It's great work, but at this stage of the game there are 4 in the above list that have, in my humble opinion, surpassed it.
I consider DosBox and QEMU compliance to be pretty critical. 4 of the 6 proposals listed above take this into account. Yours does not. However, yours was also built before we had a solid understanding of what DosBox/QEMU compliance really meant.
 
I don't get the endless keyboard layout threads. Surely it's getting tired now?

We will end up with a fairly satisfactory layout in the end. Not everyone will be pleased.
Well, the layout won't make itself, so how does one end up with a fairly satisfactory layout without working on it? Why stop at just fair when we can do outstanding. How do we get there? By everyone getting involved instead of sitting on the sidelines or offering a useless casual remark or huff. Give some precise input. Speak up about it as it involves everyone(and you) at this board who will buy a Pyra.

This is one time where sitting on your hands in smug superiority will affect you negatively. So here's a shout-out to all the big-talkers, the so called no-it-alls, the multi-paragraph experts. The one's who won't silence themselves or can't when other things are debated ad nauseum or come back with a drive by elitist comment then disappear. Show us what YOU can do [for the cause] and be explicit with your solution(s), because it will matter after you buy a Pyra. The floor is yours.  ;)
 
I don't get the endless keyboard layout threads. Surely it's getting tired now?

We will end up with a fairly satisfactory layout in the end. Not everyone will be pleased.
Saber: why do you have dead grave and acute, but not dead umlaut and circumflex? And no, äöü is not enough umlauts for me, in my language ë and ï actually are way more important than äöü. There is not a single key free of "AltGr" labels to map other symbols to (say Æ or ç), without having a keymat with incorrect labels on them. Sure, you could memorize things like "§ is actually €,  ß is actually è, ü is actually é, ä is actually à, ö is actually œ, µ is actually ç, and dead grave is actually dead circumflex", but mnemonically that sucks. For German and English, your layout is OK though. Only it is very hard to guess what the action buttons actually do.
I didn't have an available space for dead circumflex. It can be mapped painlessly to one of the umlauts, section sign, or micro though. I do have many diacritics under AltGr which I detailed in my summary too, including circumflex. Action buttons will do the same exact things they've done on the Pandora: Home, End, PageUp, and PageDown. There will always be a break-in period for any layout.
 
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The idea is to end up with an optimally satisfactory layout, not just a fairly satisfactory layout. We're getting close.

I agree - it's getting much closer. We need to take feedback seriously and give careful thought to modifications.

Anyway, here are my brutal criticisms :)


... 


Grench: Æ and Œ are not important enough to deserve dedicated Fn keys. Unless you also have Å Ø à è é ù etc. There's nearly nobody who can really do anything with an Æ key if it doesn't also have Ø and/or Å, and afaik œ is only used by the French, who would much rather have a dedicated à, è or é key than a dedicated œ. Your Fn + number row is also littered with symbols that feel like they're there just because there was some free room. It feels very arbitrary, and while I'm sure there is a way to put all those symbols on those keys in a legible way, it will still be kind of a mess to look at. Your main labels on the action buttons (ABCXYZ) look very weird to me. A dedicated dead diacritic key is nice though.


...
Thank you - I have really been hoping that someone who speaks more languages than English could give me some much needed feedback on the non-English provisions.


Fixing the extraneous French letters is pretty easy - and let me move the media playback Fn keys down to the bottom row - easier to find in the dark.


Would this help with your concerns so far?


http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b863ac229b0af4b0f46d5e73ca3104b8


As for the game pad buttons, I'm open to suggestions so long as they're not Greek. :D
 
Thank you "rygD".
If you're only addressing one person, use a PM.
I'm not interested in the popularity vote or winning the keyboard polls though, only in a useable keyboard for the Pyra.
Which is what we're ALL after.
I succeeded because...
That is a point of debate.
My layout has : at AltGr + . and AltGr + Shift + , which does make it compatible. 


It's a matter of opinion how pair ups should be. I think I coupled them up well.
Nope - you're missing the grander picture by using two examples. Reality is that EVERY keyboard pair needs to line up for DosBox and QEMU to be happy. That includes having | on shift+\, ? on shift+/, ~ on shift+`, etc... You matched 2 symbols and claimed compatibility - it doesn't work that way.
My layout has one Shift key on the L2 shoulder(like on Pandora) and, for those like ED and myself who prefer it, two shift keys on the keyboard. This is called choice because some people do not use the shoulder buttons as often as others.
I'm one of the people who doesn't use the shoulder buttons as often. I would just as soon have -none- of the modifiers on the shoulders or center top set. However, that only works if we can get a centered space bar - which does not look likely. Having three shift keys means one is double-mapped, which is one too many in this constrained key set.
It has two Alt keys(Left Alt as the Start button like on the Pandora) and the other, Right Alt, on R2 besides R1's Right Control. Our AltGr on the Pyra is not Alt.
And you don't find that confusing in the slightest? We've got to call this 'Fn/Meta/whatchawannacallit' key something other than AltGr, because it simply does not behave as and isn't an AltGr.
Insert sort of makes sense as + because - does match well with Delete. More so than calling them z and c. Both are usually found together around Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down, which are ABYX.
I agree that they should be Insert and Delete to mate up with Home, End, Page Up and Page Down. However, by labeling them with the + and -, you are labeling them with something OTHER than their function. Then the user is off searching for the actual + and - keys which are located on the lower left of your keyboard on AltGr (Fn) + D and F, which is nowhere near the top-right area that a normal keyboard user would expect.
Finally, symbol keys are roughly where they were on the Pandora, which much of the user base will transfer from.
The Pandora's keyboard was a mix of compromises and random assignments to 'make fit'. We can do FAR better than that on the Pyra.
Hey, if people want your layout then so be it. Good for them. They can chord themselves till the cows come home if they like. Shift + AltGr/Fn all they want for general symbols too.
On your layout? Not really. Expected symbol pairing is broken. Example, + is not on shift+=. Chording AltGr+Shift+S does not result in +, unless you're hiding a S-ton of hidden mappings.
I don't nor have I ever needed to convince others that there's doesn't work for mine to have merit. It has, and those who can see, will see it.   ;)
Your work has has merit. All of the layouts that grew since you made your first one have stood on your shoulders to generate their advancements. However, as new requirements have been discovered, your layout has not kept up. It's great work, but at this stage of the game there are 4 in the above list that have, in my humble opinion, surpassed it.

I consider DosBox and QEMU compliance to be pretty critical. 4 of the 6 proposals listed above take this into account. Yours does not. However, yours was also built before we had a solid understanding of what DosBox/QEMU compliance really meant.
I consider your layout more a lesson in ill-restraint. It's author fails to notice that few will want to chord AltGr and Shift together for things like { and } or _ and + if only because a full-size keyboard has those keys in normal shifted positions. It'll be a disaster commercially for the project and an inferface nightmare to have to press a Shift and Fn/AltGr for those keys everytime. We can always have AltGr + Shift secondaries for Pipe and Colon for DOSBox "happiness". That hasn't ever been excluded from inclusion.

As for AltGr, it behaves exactly as an AltGr key does. On every keyboard that has this key, a certain unique set of symbols and characters are produced, for that particular regional keyboard. Our AltGr will generate our own customly arranged set of distinct symbols. Very straightforward. 

Now, to be blunt, ED did pick my layout so the chances of any of your layouts making there way on the Pyra are closer to none than slim. Sorry.

EDIT: After looking at your layout more closely, I really don't know why you suspect anyone will be okay with : on Shift + Fn + g. Didn't you bother reading anything of what ED said in the Official Keyboard thread
 
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I like seeing how all the keyboards have gone through many iterations, and it's interesting to see how the ideas flow back and forth.  One possible suggestion:  switch =+ and -_ since -_ are used more often than =+.  Though you lose M for Minus, you gain -_ on a large key.

[edit] Oh, but I suppose you keep things in roughly US keyboard order, and it kinda makes chording <= and >= faster.  (But still kinda have to switch modifiers quick.)

Now, to be blunt, ED did pick my layout so the chances of any of your layouts making there way on the Pyra are closer to none than slim. Sorry. 
Very true.  I think he chose yours because of its similarity to the Pandora.  I think some of us were hoping for a keyboard that would be more than what the Pandora's was, but perhaps the Pandora's keyboard is already close to perfection.
 
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My mistake.  The board will come those tied together as a single key, and the key itself is one piece...
rygD, what "serious" flaws in my layout are you referring to? If it's the comma and period's location in the lower left corner, well, that's an outcome from the spacebar's positioning. My v3 layout however unlikely rectifies this for what it's worth. I worked with the canvas I was given.  :)
Please don't take my votes personally.  I chose based on personal use and preference, disregarding use by others.  I can't give you point by point breakdowns of why I feel as I do for the ones I "disliked" since it was based more on how many things I disliked or liked.  A major consideration for me is having multiple markings on every key.  Yes, having . and , on the left was also something I wasn't fond of.  I would rather have a sticky shift than 2 on the keyboard, and by putting one on each side a few things get moved around in ways that I just find less appealing than what others have come up with.  You also included non-English characters, and I was basing my choices on selfish personal use.  Even those that I "like" are flawed in my opinion, sometimes to a point where they aren't even really practical based on the constraints we have, however less technical considerations (it is less of an eyesore, it is easy to find the few characters I was looking for, things are in the area I expect them to be) won out with those.  Originally all my votes were options 4 and 5, and I decided that doing that made it seem like those that were pretty good were ranked the same as those I felt were just ok.  I don't love any of the choices as they stand so I moved some votes up to "serious flaws" due to how many things I disliked, and the overall feeling by just looking at it.

I don't think any of these layouts are completely useless.  I am fine with them.  Some of the best layouts aren't an option since they rely on centered or single width space bars, and your v3 is one of those.  There are some things you did that I really like, such as having delete and escape close to the main keyboard.  By going with the Pandora location for escape you have it close by and protected from accidental pressing, not that I think I would hit it by accident.  Plus it is familiar under Q.  I like that you kept many little things where I expect them.
 
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Now, to be blunt, ED did pick my layout so the chances of any of your layouts making there way on the Pyra are closer to none than slim. Sorry. 
Very true.  I think he chose yours because of its similarity to the Pandora.  I think some of us were hoping for a keyboard that would be more than what the Pandora's was, but perhaps the Pandora's keyboard is already close to perfection.
While it shares some things from the Pandora layout, inevitably he chose mine because he knows it will work(with some minor changes). It doesn't rely on the shoulder buttons while held in hand and it places all the important constant punctuation to the left side, away from the key, AltGr, that will induce them. It also doesn't demote the hardware keys(the four up top) as reserves behind keys like Escape or Delete, because the person using those for them in their layout couldn't find a satisfactory spot for Escape and Delete near or in the keyboard's rows.
 
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My mistake.  The board will come those tied together as a single key, and the key itself is one piece...
rygD, what "serious" flaws in my layout are you referring to? If it's the comma and period's location in the lower left corner, well, that's an outcome from the spacebar's positioning. My v3 layout however unlikely rectifies this for what it's worth. I worked with the canvas I was given.  :)
I don't think any of these layouts are completely useless.  I am fine with them.  Some of the best layouts aren't an option since they rely on centered or single width space bars, and your v3 is one of those.  There are some things you did that I really like, such as having delete and escape close to the main keyboard.  By going with the Pandora location for escape you have it close by and protected from accidental pressing, not that I think I would hit it by accident.  Plus it is familiar under Q.  I like that you kept many little things where I expect them.
After our discussion, I had you in mind when I designed v3. I know we are "stuck" with spacebar to the right and I did want , and . to be over on that side, but it's as they say not in the cards this time anyways, even if it's the comparatively superior choice from a usage perspective to not have comma in the far low corner and have spacebar accessible for both thumbs. It's good how it will be though. 
 
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Now, to be blunt, ED did pick my layout so the chances of any of your layouts making there way on the Pyra are closer to none than slim. Sorry. 
Very true.  I think he chose yours because of its similarity to the Pandora.  I think some of us were hoping for a keyboard that would be more than what the Pandora's was, but perhaps the Pandora's keyboard is already close to perfection.
While it shares some things from the Pandora layout, inevitably he chose mine because he knows it will work(with some minor changes). It doesn't rely on the shoulder buttons while held in hand and it places all the important constant punctuation to the left side, away from the key, AltGr, that will induce them. It also doesn't demote the hardware keys(the four up top) as reserves behind keys like Escape or Delete, because the person using those for them in their layout couldn't find a satisfactory spot for Escape and Delete near or in the keyboard's rows.
I personally think any of these layouts will work, though I am happier with some than others.  (I don't "LOVE" any layout, however, not even my own, because the design constraints are too severe for me.)  And "Couldn't find a satisfactory spot for Escape and Delete" is a strawman.  We have different design criteria than you; if we wanted to put Esc on Meta+Q, we could easily do so (especially _wb_'s latest:  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e1b05961a2c31a6b89288597b9642ae6 ).

[edit] And of course _wb_'s can be modified to put insert and delete on the +/- facebuttons, as I do.  But in my Unofficial poll, that actually wasn't something people cared too much about, which was interesting to me to find out.
 
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