The big Pyra keyboard poll

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by _wb_, Aug 21, 2014.

?

Single-width or double-width space key?

  1. Single-width

    33.9%
  2. Double-width

    45.8%
  3. Even larger!

    5.1%
  4. Don't care

    15.3%
  1. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    We have had a lot of Pyra keyboard threads now. Here are some of the most recent ones:

    http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16822-explaining-keyboard-layout-proposals//URL]

    http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16736-testing-alternative-layouts-that-require-single-width-space-intl-layout-vs-big-space-and-other-key-layout-decisions/

    http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16650-2-extra-face-buttons-ins-and-del/

    http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15275-unofficial-keyboard-layouts/

    plus a whole bunch of threads about the labels on the action buttons.

    It is impossible to summarize all of that discussion, so I will not do that.

    These discussions were mostly constructive and I think they have led to a lot of good ideas. But one unfortunate side-effect of huge discussion threads is that after a while, only a small fraction of the community is left to discuss with.

    Now I think it's time to get some broader input on some of the design decisions / trade-offs that have been identified. Hence this poll.

    Here are some full proposals for reference:

    Comradekingu's most recent proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6cdecd86242523f451f56c6dc4f5ce65

    Saber's most recent proposals: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15275-unofficial-keyboard-layoutsaugust-21-2014/?p=301862

    My final proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b780c42e2021df2a5ece6f4438b2bc78


    Have fun!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
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  2. Binky

    Binky Death's Steed Staff Member

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    Shouldn't the Pyra key be 'super', rather than 'Fn' ?
     
  3. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    On the Pandora I think the Pandora key produces the "Menu key" keycode. There's something to be said to make a key with the Pyra logo produce the "Super" keycode (since there's the Windows logo on that key on most normal keyboards). In my layout proposal, the new, Fn-replacing modifier is called "Pyra" and I have a separate key for Super, at the very top.

    I can only have 10 questions per poll. Otherwise I could add the question "What should the name be of the Fn-replacing additional modifier?", with answers including "Fn", "Meta", "AltGr", "Pyra" and "F-ing". The problem is somewhat complicated by comradekingu, who splits the functionality of what used to be "Fn" on the Pandora into two new modifiers: "AltGr" for the missing symbols (which he puts mostly on the number row), and "F-ing" (or "Meta") for the F-keys.
     
  4. Silent-Hunter

    Silent-Hunter Hardcore Member

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    I think the Pyra key should only be on one of the shoulder buttons if it is to be used as Fn. I think Start should be AltGr, and Select should be Super.
     
  5. Binky

    Binky Death's Steed Staff Member

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    I like have action buttons as mouse buttons, and nubs as move mouse / scroll.

    Perhaps with the new buttons as home and end
     
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  6. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    I think two things should be avoided for gamepad:  Copycat-design/getting sued   and actively confusing layout.

    Playstation layout is the first, and ABXY when everyone does that differently, is the second.

    ( + ) (  ^  )                             plus    hype
    (  :  )       (  * )                      div                 star
    ( - ) (  √  )                             min     root

    Easy names. One syllable. Ties in with the + - idea.

    It could make some sense to have ⌂ instead of *, but then home and hype would both start with h.

    The colours im not able to figure out at all.

    White      ?

    Gray              ?                     http://thestore.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/how-to-match-colors.jpg 

    Black      ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2014
  7. sepulep

    sepulep Member

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    I always have trouble with the buttons between the nubs - so please don't make them alt, ctrl or shift..or any other button that you need for text editing
     
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  8. Silent-Hunter

    Silent-Hunter Hardcore Member

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    I actually think the Pyra key should be Super, or the menu key, and Meta should be Meta and be on one of the shoulder buttons. Yeah, Pyra should be the menu key, and Select should be Super. Start AltGr, and Meta should only be on the shoulder button.
     
  9. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    Not even if you also have those on the shoulder buttons?
     
  10. FIQ

    FIQ Member

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    Things that matter for me the most is being able to use proper swedish layout, and to prefer using modifiers on shoulder buttons to prevent taking up space on the keyboard itself - and modifiers on shoulder buttons also makes it easier to use them coupled with other keys. Compare Ctrl+A on N900, Ctrl+anything on current Pandora w/o using [R] - much more cumbersome than using the [R] button + whatever.

    My reasoning for Meta/whatever on a shoulder button is quick F1-F12 access which I find more important than AltGr on them (I'm fine with AltGr being on one of the start/select buttons - but I do want it available on main layout).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2014
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  11. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    It does mean that F-keys cant be input with keyboard alone though.  It is possible to avoid using AltGr for natural language.  It depends how much you use it meta for, on my layout meta is only used for F-keys. Same as any other 60'key layout.

    Having no meta on shoulders make mediabuttons on shoulders possible. Because then you hve a non-shoulder to invoke the alternate functionality with.

    If F-keys are important enough alone that not being able to shoulder-press the combo is a concern, i dont know. The F-key row is losing relevance fast though.

    Having what F5 does readily available would be beneficial.  Other than that i use Alt+F4 sometimes, but not at all often. F11 should either be default, or not. Dont use that much either.

    Switching to a different TTY with ctrl+Alt+F*  is something i rarely do, but it sure is something i dont want to have happen by accident. On WBs layout it is currently R1+R2+L2+  any letter on the QWERTY row except U.

    On mine it is L1+L2+bottom column button (F-ing)  +  any letter on QWERTY row except U.

    The other F-key functionality is mediabuttons or hardwaretoggles, which we have dedicated.

    Edit:  These are the questions i would like asked. In the order they are important and to the degree they make decisions that impact other things. Would like some input on them.

    (full functional layout vs reduced layout)

    Accomodate as many as possible without making anyone suffer?

    Accomodate only english people and make everyone else suffer?

    (Coding or international vs direct input of '    or recursive remapping)  (also impacts dead-key input)

    When swapping to international layout, only lose coding input  <> [ ] { } and have to use shouldershift.  (lose dead-key č ď ě ǐ ľ ň ř š ť ž Č Ď Ě Ǐ Ľ Ň Ř Š Ť Ž)

    When swapping to international layout, lose ' " ` ~ and tab. (lose dead-key á ć é í ĺ ń ó ŕ ś ú ý ź Á Ć É Í Ĺ Ń Ó Ŕ Ś Ú Ý Ź   and  ő ű Ő Ű  and   à è ì ò ù À È Ì Ò Ù and   and    ã ĩ ő ñ ũ Ã Ĩ Ő Ñ Ũ)

    (this means having to at least find a new place for ' and " to input English natural language.)

    (Side shift should be on, slalom-typing, space)

    Functions more like a 2thumb keyboard, looks less like a 105-key?

    Looks more like a 105-key, functions worse as a 2thumb keyboard?

    (dot space shift, comma space and dot enter-sequential patterns)

    Swipe-combos for punctuation?

    Separated presses for punctuation?

    (Functionality vs readability)

    3 inscriptions on number row, visually non-invasive F-markings, 1 letter per letter key. (more standard, harder to see shiftmods and AltGr/Fkeys, less cluttered letter area)

    2 inscriptions on every key. (easier to see with worse eye,sight, more cluttered letter area.)

    Standard input vs non-standard input

    Being able to input natural language using only shift (semi-standard reduced number row choices)

    Being able to input natural language using shift and meta for letter (2per) keys (US English reduced number row choices)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2014
  12. Saber

    Saber Advanced Member

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    The Pyra key, which is actually the Super key, should be the Pyra logo. Start and Select should remain Left Alt and Left Ctrl to play it safe with the programs from the Pandora repo which will migrate over.
     
  13. Silent-Hunter

    Silent-Hunter Hardcore Member

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    Then where does AltGr and the Menu key go?
     
  14. Saber

    Saber Advanced Member

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    AltGr or Right Alt should be on one of the Shoulder buttons. The Menu key if I understand you correctly should go to where it was on the Pandora, at the center just above the keyboard. 
     
  15. sepulep

    sepulep Member

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    that would be allright..although I quite often use the shift on the keyboard on the pandora instead of left shoulder, I guess it has something with the ergonomics, for me typing is faster if I have all fingers supporting the underside as opposed to having one finger on the shoulder button..
     
  16. edgex004

    edgex004 Advanced Member

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    I really liked the suggestion of having the shoulder buttons be shift, ctrl, alt, and meta, but when the lid closes, they switch to play/pause, forward, back, and stop. Great idea for listening to music and answering phone calls while the lid is closed. Not sure how feasible it is, though.
     
  17. DrHAX

    DrHAX T̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶u̶t̶h̶o̶r̶ The Artist

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    I was hoping FN would be on a shoulder same with ctrl and shift. It'd making writing infinitely easier. I've writted 50 pages if a novel on the Pandora and doing the manual FN to do "!?" is annoying when you have a nice grip on the unit because you have to alter it...


    Honestly I hope the shoulders are Bindable because everybody wants different things
     
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  18. Hồng Thất Công

    Hồng Thất Công Đả Cẩu Bổng Pháp

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    How about putting as many keys as technically possible on the Pyra without labels and without hardcoding the keys.  There would then be a special mapping software with GUI (writen by Ed's dev team of course :) ) to let you map all those blank keys to whatever keyboard style/country you want? :D

    Oh!  That would be so geeky and personalized, and it would enhance your brain memory and stop you from having alzheimer when you get old as you have to memorize each and every key you map on your own keyboards ;)   That would be a ultimate brain game in itself ;) , and you would spent your first couple years learning the your own keyboard ;) .  Pyra is a device for crazy geeks after all, so why don't we make it crazy like that ;)

    PYRA - Addtional Function: An Alzheimer Prevention Device :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2014
  19. Glyph Reader

    Glyph Reader Member

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    I think that as long as the Pyra OS image comes with a good rebinding program, things will be good/better. 

    -Glyph Reader
     
  20. WizardStan

    WizardStan Mega GP Mania

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    It'd be really weird if the shoulder buttons aren't bindable. The only button that can't really be rebound on the Pandora is Fn key, and that was a software choice. There are certain features of the Pandora button which are hard wired (pandora + power = hard reset, no way to rebind that because it's a hardware trigger) but even that could be rebound to do something not hardware locked if you wanted.
     

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