Unofficial Keyboard Poll

[Wrath Of Khan]

Oh for the love of God!

 

[ible]

I suppose it doesn't matter but my current layout V2, which is in my sig, is not considered in this poll. The V1 shown was the original older one and V3 is another more extreme version of it and V2. I left it for ED to mix and match what he likes from all three specifically where ? and ' and " are.   

To make it simple, I chose the first layout of each keyboard layouter -- as mentioned in the OP.  Your versions are fairly similar, so I don't think you'll lose anyone's vote (someone who wanted V2, but hated V1).  V3 is out because of design constraints.

Oh for the love of God!

I'd like to point out that ED seems to favor Saber's layout most, but _wb_'s has more community votes (at present).  That, to me, seems to indicate the importance of such a poll...

 

[comradekingu]

Questions about comradekingu's proposal:

• "I would prefer to have a Meta (F-) button on the lower part of the keyboard." I think that in comradekingu's proposal, the Meta button is the one at R1, while the F-ing button is the one above START, and they're two distinct additional modifiers. So I picked this because I would like to have both a non-shoulder Meta button and a more accessible F-ing button (either on a shoulder or in the lower part); and really I don't want to have two distinct additional modifiers.
• "I don't understand how the spacebar works to get : or /, but I could figure it out." Actually only the first part of that sentence. I don't think I could figure it out. More in general, I think comradekingu's proposal looks very nice, it's very much Scandinavian design at work here, but it introduces lots of weird icons and it seems rather hard to learn how to operate it by just looking at the labels, without using a reference handbook.

R1 is AltGr aka third level modifier. 

Im using icons because those are easier to print and read than "Ctrl" and especially "Select"

You are very right, a floppy spacebar isnt good. Same reason why a double-wide membrane keyboard space isnt good. It feels wrong. And it looks wrong if one keyboard-key doesnt do one keyboard-thing.

The only valid reason for doing doublewide is you can distinguish it better on first look. If people cant figure out how to deal with it like two sides, then that is broken.

I cant change it because then its not possible to have a full layout keyboard in (terms of letters for anyone but the english).

Which is the very reason for trying to design something better than the pandora keyboard in the first place.

 

[Saber]

Oh for the love of God!

I think you mean Beelzebub.

 

[Grench]

Oh for the love of God!

I think you mean Beelzebub.

No, it's Beelzebubba.  (Thank you Dead Milkmen.)

 

[_wb_]

I wonder why this poll has more replies than voters. What are the reasons for people to not vote?

If it's simply because they don't care or because they don't have time to carefully consider the options, then of course it's fine not to vote (in fact better not to vote than to vote semi-randomly). But if there are other reasons not to vote, then please let us know!

 

[comradekingu]

Because its a chore to go through all the questions. Just the last two are relevant.

 

[_wb_]

Because its a chore to go through all the questions. Just the last two are relevant.

Actually you could just ignore the layout-specific questions. They're all checkboxes, so you can just not check any of them if you don't want to answer those questions. That would indicate that you chose not to answer them, and it would be a distinct answer from not agreeing to any of the statements (the 1 positive and 2 negative ones per proposal), because then you would check the "No comment" box while keeping the others unchecked.

 

[rygD]

I wonder why this poll has more replies than voters. What are the reasons for people to not vote?

If it's simply because they don't care or because they don't have time to carefully consider the options, then of course it's fine not to vote (in fact better not to vote than to vote semi-randomly). But if there are other reasons not to vote, then please let us know!

I have been following the keyboard threads for a while, and watching the layouts develop.  I have also spoken up about what I like and what I think could be improved from time to time.  I haven't voted because I really don't know how to vote with the choices given.  It is like comradekingu said, for me.  The choices don't reflect how I feel about these layouts at all.  It seems useless for me to choose "No comment" for most and say that I am fine with them all and try to pick a favorite, which would probably not be my actual favorite.  I don't have a single one I like significantly more than the others.  With the current options there are some I think might work well for a bunch of reasons, so I like those.  There are still things I feel could be done in a way I like more with each of those. 

Here are my votes: As long as the keyboard works I will adapt. I like all of the ones that don't have multiple markings on (nearly) all keys the most.  Those that keep things, like the shifted characters on the number row, in typical US positions are even better.

comradekingu, I wasn't trying to single out your layout.  That last sentence is due to how quickly I will become irritated when switching from a desktop or a laptop and trying to use those symbols that are on the key, but I have to use something other than shift to get some of them.

I have had the poll up a few times with all of the layouts in other tabs, and the poll just doesn't really apply to me, so I don't vote.

 

[SNESFAN]

I hate these polls....

saber's looks intuitive

 

[_wb_]

rygD: that sounds like you could tolerate all of the proposals. Even if you don't have a strong preference, and if you feel that most of the layout-specific choices do not allow you to accurately express your feelings about them (how could they? there's way more to be said about any layout than any list of a few statements could ever hope to cover), I still think it is helpful to vote if only to show that some people do not have a strong preference and would actually be fine with most of the proposals. If only those with extreme opinions vote, it might look like the community is just hopelessly divided and no consensus is possible, even if that's not actually the case.

I hate these polls....

saber's looks intuitive

Could you elaborate a bit on what causes Saber's proposal to look intuitive to you (or what causes the other proposals to look counter-intuitive) ? And is that the only reason why you think it's the only proposal you could tolerate?

 

[SNESFAN]

Well... if I must, it looks the most like the mix of a standard qwerty keyboard and a mobile device keyboard on phones.

The multi-function buttons look like what I believe a normal person would want in those positions in the top row given the frequency of use and how somewhat non-intuitive it is to turn those functions on/off now in the pandora.

I only voted for sabers as that's the one I like. I *personally* don't like the other ones, no offense.

 

[rygD]

rygD: that sounds like you could tolerate all of the proposals. Even if you don't have a strong preference, and if you feel that most of the layout-specific choices do not allow you to accurately express your feelings about them (how could they? there's way more to be said about any layout than any list of a few statements could ever hope to cover), I still think it is helpful to vote if only to show that some people do not have a strong preference and would actually be fine with most of the proposals. If only those with extreme opinions vote, it might look like the community is just hopelessly divided and no consensus is possible, even if that's not actually the case.

I can tolerate all of them.  I don't hate the Pandora keyboard (a keyboard being present at all is a huge factor for me) however I don't really like it.  I can tolerate it, though.  Even if ED ultimately gives us something almost just like that, and I don't mean just the layout, I am still getting a Pyra, and I will use it and love it.

When I do vote I am not picking "No comment" because I can't be bothered to think about the layouts.  I have probably thougt too much about the ones I like.  I just need to decide on a "favorite".  Will any others, such as the recent one by WizardStan, be added at some point?  If so it might still be too early to have people picking a favorite.  

Then again, even if we set a deadline people will probably continue to make new layouts after that.  The same may also be true after ED has decided what he is going with and made an official announcement...  Maybe this is why some people avoid the keyboard threads, it gets discussed endlessly.  Just give us one key, the any key, and a bunch of modifiers that are all blank so users can label them how or if they want.  

 

[_jr_]

I usually answer any poll, but answering this one would just give the false impression that the questions were valid and relevant ones despite the problems that have been pointed out and not adressed.

 

[_wb_]

OK, so do we need a new poll, with just the last two questions, and including WizardStan's proposal?

The only problem I have with that, is that there might be lots of semi-uninformed votes by people who only looked at the proposals very superficially, potentially swamping out the carefully considered votes. While I agree that there are problems with the questions in this poll, I think it does help to have something like that to act as a kind of "did you give this enough thought?" CAPTCHA.

 

[_wb_]

I went ahead and created a new poll:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17989-unofficial-keyboard-layout-poll-bis/

 

[comradekingu]

I dont think you can rationally expect people to put in the time it takes to grasp every little detail. In my experience, having spent a whole lot of time, I still dont want to do it if it doesnt appear intuitive.

It is a lot easier to rule something out than to fully look at its potential. When the former is the quickest, thats not unfortunate, its a real effect. If you want to measure real-life salability, there is a window of maybe 10-15 seconds, and thats only if it makes sense at first glance.

Thats what i think atleast. It is damn hard to make a layout that actually sells units. If we are lucky we get something that doesnt ruin the whole "rest-of-the-package".

 

[_wb_]

I dont think you can rationally expect people to put in the time it takes to grasp every little detail. In my experience, having spent a whole lot of time, I still dont want to do it if it doesnt appear intuitive.

It is a lot easier to rule something out than to fully look at its potential. When the former is the quickest, thats not unfortunate, its a real effect. If you want to measure real-life salability, there is a window of maybe 10-15 seconds, and thats only if it makes sense at first glance.

Thats what i think atleast. It is damn hard to make a layout that actually sells units. If we are lucky we get something that doesnt ruin the whole "rest-of-the-package".

I doubt that the keyboard layout and labeling has a big influence on sales. What counts is the fact that there is a keyboard, and some general properties of the keyboard (number of keys, being able to input all standard ASCII characters). People will just assume that the keyboard is designed well.

So I don't think we should optimize for marketing/sales, we should optimize for actual use.

 

[comradekingu]

It will if its bad. First thing people who need it look for is p+2 and l+2. Thats the nosale kicker for a lot of people. Lets very conservativly say 25%.  And it has to do with looks and use.

Spoiler

There are more foreigners to any foreign set of letters than there are actual users. The percentage of people who are for example not german, lets say 70% is way higher than the people who

use something different than A-Z, about 50%. Taking away p+2 and l+2 creates a need for a problem (seeing foreign letters) that is even worse than the ruined functionality. Because if the keyboard cant sell,  then use is rendered void.

I dont know how many percent foreign letters scare off, but its not 0. When zero is the safe option, i dont know that relying on the pandora-layout is a safer bet.

A keyboard isnt enough anymore.

 

[Saber]

It will if its bad. First thing people who need it look for is p+2 and l+2. Thats the nosale kicker for a lot of people. Lets very conservativly say 25%. 

Yes, people will either turn tail and run from purchasing a Pyra since their usual letters aren't at P+2 and L+2, or they will adapt the keyboard to fit their own needs(like assigning an å over another character they don't use).