skeezix
Internal Development
okay, posting PMs, even as vicious as that one, is a little low class. It illustrates why I'm done with Craig,
but I'll pull it.
jeff
but I'll pull it.
jeff
The current situation
- Thread starter craigix
- Start date
Let's try to keep things positive. We need to work together. It sounds like that quote might have been one of the times when Craig was angry that people weren't supporting his app store. I don't know that it helps to republish it here..
ShleeDragon
Pro-Catflip
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I think the community needs to understand how completely strange and abstract this whole thing is.. there hasn't been a company in the history of time which such intimate communication/relation between the owners and the clients.
Because you can talk to Craig, makes things very very personal for both of you. Everybody (including Craig) needs to cut down on the ad hominem. The Pandoras history is complex... it's a series of unfortunate events.. but as I've said, there hasn't been fraud... Craig has stated he's working on a solution and it's his job to do it
Bottom line: People will always have disagreements, the fact that craig/ed are so vocal and involved in the community has seeded discussion and arguments. I just hope that once the original batches are completed (in whatever timeframe).. that some people put down their axes.
As they say, you should forgive, you don't need to forget.
Edit: We need to start pulling talented developers into the circle and not scare them away. Thanks to everybody involved in the OP.
Because you can talk to Craig, makes things very very personal for both of you. Everybody (including Craig) needs to cut down on the ad hominem. The Pandoras history is complex... it's a series of unfortunate events.. but as I've said, there hasn't been fraud... Craig has stated he's working on a solution and it's his job to do it
Bottom line: People will always have disagreements, the fact that craig/ed are so vocal and involved in the community has seeded discussion and arguments. I just hope that once the original batches are completed (in whatever timeframe).. that some people put down their axes.
As they say, you should forgive, you don't need to forget.
Edit: We need to start pulling talented developers into the circle and not scare them away. Thanks to everybody involved in the OP.
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ghostpatch
Active Member
cool down everybody!!
There is nothing wrong with a conversation like this but its not the right time. We are all here because of the Pandora, its spirit and the grate community. You're just cutting your own flash.... well, and the flash of others by contributing to this
give Craig some slag. He is always being criticized. Given the circumstances its no surprise he's on edge.
@skeezix
plz just ignore him. Everybody knows how much you dedicated! you are totally cool ; D
There is nothing wrong with a conversation like this but its not the right time. We are all here because of the Pandora, its spirit and the grate community. You're just cutting your own flash.... well, and the flash of others by contributing to this
give Craig some slag. He is always being criticized. Given the circumstances its no surprise he's on edge.
@skeezix
plz just ignore him. Everybody knows how much you dedicated! you are totally cool ; D
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craigix
Mega GP Mania
The thing is, and this is how it comes across to me, that there is assumed to be 'more to it' or some kind of underhand conspiracy going on here. So we would need to prepare a statement and some spin to cover things up.
No.
The very simple facts are, I paid CircuitCo to do a job, and they didn't do it, and we were left in the shit.
That's it.
There is no need to prepare anything, to try to polish anything up.
And PS, posting out of context PMs, really? Have we crossed that bridge or could we backtrack?
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quartercast
Well-Known Member
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- Feb 13, 2007
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- 1,551
Hmm, I think there's been some torporification happening here. I thought the first post was meant to have been a statement of explanation about what is going on?
ShleeDragon
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Leave the detailed explanation for EvilDragons book.
quartercast
Well-Known Member
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Well I insist that torporification gets a mention in the glossary of ED's book.
ibisum
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torporification? Whats that, exactly?
Anyway, craig, the position stands: you must be prepared for the worst. Yes, there is some suspicion of you as a character, and yes, you must account for this fact, because it is a stigma of involvement in this community: "Craig, you either love him or hate him", and well .. in both angles, there can be good and bad reasons for loving or hating you, Craig. The press, getting wind of your successes, may well be inclined to sell your story on the basis of its controversies, which do exist. Now there seems to be trouble brewing vis a vis your relationship with Open Pandora GmBH, which is a terrible travesty if half the rumors prove to be true, indeed, since your very survival depends on that relationship with ED being, paramount, squeaky, squeaky clean. Not having paid him for digging you out of disaster is definitely *not* the way to demonstrate business prowess on the order of responsibilities of hundreds of thousands of dollars ..
As for the feedback loop, wherein you instantly castigate anyone with an inkling of criticism of your practices, please be aware: I have supported you since the days you were selling GP32's one by one, I have Pandora and Wiz and GP2X coming out of the drawers because of my willingness to support your ideal of a hardware startup, and well: if you think I'm out to get you, you're not only criminally ignorant, but probably also insane. I was one of the very first actual cash-donor's in line for a lot of your projects so far, and it is a dismal fact for me to have to say "watch out for the negative products of your conduct" because I, in fact, am a positive: I have my Pandoras, love them, use them a lot. Same with my iCP's (x2) and my future iCP2's, no doubt ..
Beware, there *is* a story being written here, Craig. Your authorship is, indeed, the subject.
Anyway, craig, the position stands: you must be prepared for the worst. Yes, there is some suspicion of you as a character, and yes, you must account for this fact, because it is a stigma of involvement in this community: "Craig, you either love him or hate him", and well .. in both angles, there can be good and bad reasons for loving or hating you, Craig. The press, getting wind of your successes, may well be inclined to sell your story on the basis of its controversies, which do exist. Now there seems to be trouble brewing vis a vis your relationship with Open Pandora GmBH, which is a terrible travesty if half the rumors prove to be true, indeed, since your very survival depends on that relationship with ED being, paramount, squeaky, squeaky clean. Not having paid him for digging you out of disaster is definitely *not* the way to demonstrate business prowess on the order of responsibilities of hundreds of thousands of dollars ..
As for the feedback loop, wherein you instantly castigate anyone with an inkling of criticism of your practices, please be aware: I have supported you since the days you were selling GP32's one by one, I have Pandora and Wiz and GP2X coming out of the drawers because of my willingness to support your ideal of a hardware startup, and well: if you think I'm out to get you, you're not only criminally ignorant, but probably also insane. I was one of the very first actual cash-donor's in line for a lot of your projects so far, and it is a dismal fact for me to have to say "watch out for the negative products of your conduct" because I, in fact, am a positive: I have my Pandoras, love them, use them a lot. Same with my iCP's (x2) and my future iCP2's, no doubt ..
Beware, there *is* a story being written here, Craig. Your authorship is, indeed, the subject.
ghostpatch
Active Member
call Dustforce to clean it up! 
included in the currently running Humble Bundle 6 http://www.humblebundle.com/ - GET IT NOW -
Edit: wipe, wipe, wipe, he he : P
included in the currently running Humble Bundle 6 http://www.humblebundle.com/ - GET IT NOW -
Edit: wipe, wipe, wipe, he he : P
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craigix
Mega GP Mania
I'm sure you would love there to be some drama, but there just isn't.
There are people who detest me with a vengeance, but there is just no smoking gun, because if there was, let me assure you, they would have found it.
If you want your villain go and find Clint who own CC.
The simple facts are:
CircuitCo messed up.
We spoke about bankruptcy. I was not keen on 'loans' from the community, it could be good money after bad.
Ed decided to do it anyway (which I did not resist, I said for him to do it if he wanted to and I'd help as much as I could).
Everything starts again, things are going well, then bang, bulk refund time.
The situation was always possible. It is what I feared.
It can be recovered, I've a saved post about starting that (with lengthy details about how this can be fixed), but I'm not entirely sure what the forum really wants to happen here. I need to think about all this more.
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You do not know what the forum wants? Some clues:
1. When and how will you pay ED for the 1GHZ units you took customers money for.
(including: when will those people get what they paid for)
2. When and how will you deliver the outstanding pandora orders.
1. When and how will you pay ED for the 1GHZ units you took customers money for.
(including: when will those people get what they paid for)
2. When and how will you deliver the outstanding pandora orders.
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skeezix
Internal Development
Really, I think what is wanted has begun again --
Craig just talking about it. Thats great! Like the old days before it got all stressful
Now, he's right, there is no conspiracy; he's clever, cuts to the chase, and again noting throwing good after the bad .. he knows his stuff And also, truth be told, the Business is none of ours in a lot of ways.. not all secrets should come out! Its ED, and fatih, and Craig, and DaveC, and Mike, and those guys most involved.
But certainly some transparency is what the community is about, and the old preorders and such are owed some details for all their faith.
Agreed, Clint! and the banks! and the volcanos! Were it not for these problems, things would have been better and probably further problems wouldn't have had to come, for sure. Also, be nice to people
jeff
Craig -- really, you need to have free time again, to bring out one of your old Doom ports; I'm sure you miss the hell out of hacking around
Craig just talking about it. Thats great! Like the old days before it got all stressful
Now, he's right, there is no conspiracy; he's clever, cuts to the chase, and again noting throwing good after the bad .. he knows his stuff
And also, truth be told, the Business is none of ours in a lot of ways.. not all secrets should come out! Its ED, and fatih, and Craig, and DaveC, and Mike, and those guys most involved.But certainly some transparency is what the community is about, and the old preorders and such are owed some details for all their faith.
Agreed, Clint! and the banks! and the volcanos! Were it not for these problems, things would have been better and probably further problems wouldn't have had to come, for sure. Also, be nice to people
jeff
Craig -- really, you need to have free time again, to bring out one of your old Doom ports; I'm sure you miss the hell out of hacking around
Personally i dont mind when i get my 1Ghz as long as I *eventually* get it. assuming it comes with wooden box etc. I would however appreciate some response to PM queries i sent to Craig a while back. I'm a patient person i can wait, i did for my batch 1 (which i traded in against the cost of 1GHz). I know shit happens, i dont hold Craig responsible for it but i can see why people are annoyed: not having a pandora for this long is like losing a limb and its a little kick in the teeth to see them flying out of ED's shop. I hope the 1Ghz que can get moving soon then all this stress can die down.
# 68 patiently waiting
# 68 patiently waiting
We've begun to dive into the usual swamp already, but please note that as I read it, torpor's post (#109 in this thread) isn't about dealing with people who are already waiting for merch they've bought from Craig. It's about making a better impression on people who are new to this whole story, hear about the Pandora delays, and start wondering why they should trust Craig to avoid such problems on the ICP2 project.
All I see torpor saying is that Craig should expect some such people to come asking questions (while, presumably, others just quietly skip the ICP2 without bothering to ask), and should have an answer ready for them. Not an answer to his existing customers here on this forum, but an answer to his doubting might-become-customers over on kickstarter.
Torpor, is this roughly what you meant? Skeezix, is this roughly what you agreed with? Craig ... uh, seriously: what happened there?
All I see torpor saying is that Craig should expect some such people to come asking questions (while, presumably, others just quietly skip the ICP2 without bothering to ask), and should have an answer ready for them. Not an answer to his existing customers here on this forum, but an answer to his doubting might-become-customers over on kickstarter.
Torpor, is this roughly what you meant? Skeezix, is this roughly what you agreed with? Craig ... uh, seriously: what happened there?
Godmil
Active Member
I think the actual problem came from the phrase "extreme justice", which if I was Craig I would have read as very negative criticism, and so I see why he was mad, then shit just kinda exploded.
But maybe it wasn't meant in the way it read (to some of us).
Lets all cool down for a bitty. pre-orderers are wanting our pandoras, and so can get impatient, Craig/ED are stressed because it's a difficult situation. It's understandable for people to get emotional, but if we cool down a bitty things will run smoother.
But maybe it wasn't meant in the way it read (to some of us).
Lets all cool down for a bitty. pre-orderers are wanting our pandoras, and so can get impatient, Craig/ED are stressed because it's a difficult situation. It's understandable for people to get emotional, but if we cool down a bitty things will run smoother.
ShleeDragon
Pro-Catflip
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Craig is extremely stressed and keeps getting hammered when he's trying to do what he needs to do. We keep begging for updates, then jump on him once he does. If he replied, we go for the throat.
If you guys don't see that, you really need to think about treating craig as a person. there is problems and drama.. but there isn't fraud.. treat him with some respect.
Proof: Craig had money in reserve for refunds, but got wayyy too many... so instead of begging or delaying or refusing (sad face) to pay. He handed over the money because it's the legally required thing to do... Give him support for doing the right thing
but like I said. Craig's job is to run his business from the RED to the black. until he's committed fraud. Treat him with respect. Ask respectful questions and you'll get respectful answers.
Don't act like he's not pulling his hair out.. He's looking for a solution.
If you guys don't see that, you really need to think about treating craig as a person. there is problems and drama.. but there isn't fraud.. treat him with some respect.
Proof: Craig had money in reserve for refunds, but got wayyy too many... so instead of begging or delaying or refusing (sad face) to pay. He handed over the money because it's the legally required thing to do... Give him support for doing the right thing
but like I said. Craig's job is to run his business from the RED to the black. until he's committed fraud. Treat him with respect. Ask respectful questions and you'll get respectful answers.
Don't act like he's not pulling his hair out.. He's looking for a solution.
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fusion_power
Advanced Member
And you still did not punished them in any way, which is imho the main problem onto the entire situation. At the Moment, the Useres have to pay for all the mess of the Pandora troubles, CC (and otheres) made. This is not only unfair but actualy the completely wrong way to deal with this. It's like EU finance crisis, the poor People have to pay for the mistakes of Banks and speculations of the Finance Industry and these that caused all the mess are still laughing and still doing their bad stuff (I mean CC, not the OP-Team).
CC owes "us" Millions I would say, so force them to pay everty cent, they owe, not the Community.
I still maintain that the cleanest resolution to this mess is for people to keep behind Craig's store until he is able to deliver on all outstanding orders.
That's not going to happen if everybody boycotts Craig's store and takes their money elsewhere. Regardless of any personal resentment - some of which may well be warranted and some of which may not - surely it's in the community's interest to see Craig come through now?
I and many others pre-ordered with Craig quite early on in the project in good faith, when the Pandora was just one big idea, a collection of designs and prototypes, a few good people with the means to make things happen and an awesome, excited community prepared to take a gamble and support them.
I'm sure everybody thought their money was all lost at least once, and if it hadn't been for ED's determination and massive personal investment in finding a new company to produce the boards then it certainly would be.
But here we are, years later, and the Pandora is now a real product in its 3rd evolution of mass production, and from what I can tell it has an awesome suite of software and community still behind it. Mistakes have definitely been made, emotions have been strained, and many situations could have been handled more tactfully, but It would be a shame to see it all come to an end because the community lose patience at the final hurdle and decide to leave Craig's store to fail without clearing the backlog.
This post is at the top of the official news forum, where many people will go for information, and upon reading through it, as a long-time lurker it seems like the general advice and tone is that those of us with outstanding orders should be going "Oh Christ, It looks like Craig's really screwed things up, I should get him to refund my order so that I can buy my Pandora from ED instead".
I'm sure that if too many people come across this thread and do that, then we will simply undermine whatever plans that ED and Craig are working TOGETHER to hatch. Neither of them will be able to cope with the demand, we'll end up with people having to face never seeing their money back or a Pandora which they've ordered, and I'm sure that if that happens then we won't see a future Pandora console.
It sounds like ED and Craig have decided to continue to work together to deliver on all outstanding Pandora orders so that a line can be drawn under it and we can all get stupidly excited about the Pandora 2 again while happily tinkering with our own real, physical, Pandora consoles in whatever iteration they might be.
Unless ED or Craig specifically says so, I'm fairly sure the best thing for original pre-order customers to do is to keep their existing orders with whichever shop they ordered from, and if they are able to upgrade then do so with the same shop.
(Just the possibly ill-informed opinion of one more patient pre-orderer.)
That's not going to happen if everybody boycotts Craig's store and takes their money elsewhere. Regardless of any personal resentment - some of which may well be warranted and some of which may not - surely it's in the community's interest to see Craig come through now?
I and many others pre-ordered with Craig quite early on in the project in good faith, when the Pandora was just one big idea, a collection of designs and prototypes, a few good people with the means to make things happen and an awesome, excited community prepared to take a gamble and support them.
I'm sure everybody thought their money was all lost at least once, and if it hadn't been for ED's determination and massive personal investment in finding a new company to produce the boards then it certainly would be.
But here we are, years later, and the Pandora is now a real product in its 3rd evolution of mass production, and from what I can tell it has an awesome suite of software and community still behind it. Mistakes have definitely been made, emotions have been strained, and many situations could have been handled more tactfully, but It would be a shame to see it all come to an end because the community lose patience at the final hurdle and decide to leave Craig's store to fail without clearing the backlog.
This post is at the top of the official news forum, where many people will go for information, and upon reading through it, as a long-time lurker it seems like the general advice and tone is that those of us with outstanding orders should be going "Oh Christ, It looks like Craig's really screwed things up, I should get him to refund my order so that I can buy my Pandora from ED instead".
I'm sure that if too many people come across this thread and do that, then we will simply undermine whatever plans that ED and Craig are working TOGETHER to hatch. Neither of them will be able to cope with the demand, we'll end up with people having to face never seeing their money back or a Pandora which they've ordered, and I'm sure that if that happens then we won't see a future Pandora console.
It sounds like ED and Craig have decided to continue to work together to deliver on all outstanding Pandora orders so that a line can be drawn under it and we can all get stupidly excited about the Pandora 2 again while happily tinkering with our own real, physical, Pandora consoles in whatever iteration they might be.
Unless ED or Craig specifically says so, I'm fairly sure the best thing for original pre-order customers to do is to keep their existing orders with whichever shop they ordered from, and if they are able to upgrade then do so with the same shop.
(Just the possibly ill-informed opinion of one more patient pre-orderer.)
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