I dont know about anyone else but I really makes me upset/mad when you guys say this, i've seen it before a few times from Craigix and well you guys decided to stick with it witch is awesome and I am truley excited to have a 1Ghz OP some day maybe when my order goes threw... however you guys did decided to go forward with production and not fold so people are not going to be happy waiting in excess of 3 years, I am not one of them but I can certinley understand there pain.
The current situation
- Thread starter craigix
- Start date
I dont know about anyone else but I really makes me upset/mad when you guys say this, i've seen it before a few times from Craigix and well you guys decided to stick with it witch is awesome and I am truley excited to have a 1Ghz OP some day maybe when my order goes threw... however you guys did decided to go forward with production and not fold so people are not going to be happy waiting in excess of 3 years, I am not one of them but I can certinley understand there pain.
Tenka
Snakes and Fish
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2012
- Messages
- 701
I think it would be a good idea to shift production to 1GHz only. It over-complicates it to be building two different models,
ED and crew will get confused and solder them wrong.
I suppose there is no real difference in the cost to produce them now that the prep has been done.
It would be cheaper for OP to build just the 1GHz models.
Wait why do you suppose that? I was thinking it was substantially more expensive hardware. I was thinking the 1GHz Pandoras would be a special little thing. I later read that ED was making a lot more, but it still never occurred to me that they could completely replace the new normal Pandoras. Are they not massively more expensive at all? Was the extra price just to start them off and get one a little bit faster? I don't feel like I can rightfully complain at all if I have just misunderstood, but I already felt quite guilty for spending a couple months' worth of money on getting myself something special rather than on helping my hungry student loan debt pinned friend, but I decided to spare myself and someday give my exclusive greatest version ever Pandora to said friend after I bought myself a Pandora 2. If classic unupgraded preorderers like month-ago-me are going to be rewarded with this same amazing edition Pandora without paying anything more, if the companies can respectfully afford to do that, then regardless of how good I could say it makes me feel to give $300 to help this progress along I've just donated to a computer company instead of helping either of us.
Realistically though, I guess this actually makes my previous decision less selfish of me. I'm sorry about being one of the complaining people. Also Edit: typo.
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ShleeDragon
Pro-Catflip
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2010
- Messages
- 1,749
To the people whom seem to have an axe to grind. The Pandora was a project with a history of delays. Not fraud! People paid for their units and they waited, as Did I. I got my Pandora after threeish years... and whom were unwilling to wait got refunded in full.
If you paid for something, you will get it.
If you paid for something, you will get it.
elwing
Rabbit Addict
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 3,118
I think it would be a good idea to shift production to 1GHz only. It over-complicates it to be building two different models,
ED and crew will get confused and solder them wrong.
I suppose there is no real difference in the cost to produce them now that the prep has been done.
It would be cheaper for OP to build just the 1GHz models.
Wait why do you suppose that? I was thinking it was substantially more expensive hardware. I was thinking the 1GHz Pandoras would be a special little thing. I later read that ED was making a lot more, but it still never occurred to me that they could completely replace the new normal Pandoras. Are they not massively more expensive at all? Was the extra price just to start them off and get one a little bit faster? I don't feel like I can rightfully complain at all if I have just misunderstood, but I already felt quite guilty for spending a couple months' worth of money on getting myself something special rather than on helping my hungry student loan debt pinned friend, but I decided to spare myself and someday give my exclusive greatest version ever Pandora to said friend after I bought myself a Pandora 2. If classic unupgraded preorderers like month-ago-me are going to be rewarded with this same amazing edition Pandora without paying anything more, if the companies can respectfully afford to do that, then regardless of how good I could say it makes me feel to give $300 to help this progress along I've just donated to a computer company instead of helping either of us.
Realistically though, I guess this actually makes my previous decision less selfish of me. I'm sorry about being one of the complaining people. Also Edit: typo.
from what we were told, there was an expensive "premium" 1GHz version, but the production of 600Mhz will not exist anymore as the chip won't be available anymore. the cost is also similar but craigX told us the 1GHz version will be sold for a little bit more than the actual 600MHz cause they actually lost money at the price they sell them. as to why not produce only 1GHz version, it's only because openpandora has a stock of 600MHz they need to use.
You see this is what I'm talking about. The answer to that is obviously no. It's like asking well why don't you cancel then? As if not declaring bankruptcy precludes you from any of the proactive actions I listed to earnestly show you have the original preorders best interest at heart. I could just as easily ask would you rather we all ask for a refund right now? Well guess what? Some of us CAN'T get a refund.
The infuriating fact in all of this is that there is an obvious issue and those affected are left with the perception that very little thought, planning or effort went into solving the problem other than using new sales to release old pre-orders. This is a fine plan so how about we start selling the hell out of these Pandoras by any means necessary to keep and fill the obligation to the original investors in a timely fashion.
Flyers, newspaper ads, hacker conventions, conventions in general, youtube, twitter, facebook, forum sig ads, direct emails to the original investors, suggested ideas on how to advertise, requested ideas on how to advertise, ebay auctions. Any number of ideas could have been used to shorten the wait. Instead the best I hear is get a refund or would you rather we went bankrupt? Like those are the only options. Now people don't even want us to get a refund!
Now if everyone is getting updated to the 1ghz model (which is great!) find a way to communicate that better than just adding another forum post to the almost 5k you have. Is email now broken? It worked fine when I made my original purchase. Also sending emails is not the same as answering them, so although Ed's inbox is blowing up doesn't mean an official notification can't be sent from the Pandora team.
For instance the front page has zero announcements.
Edit: Amazon.com, newegg, tigerdirect, play-asia.com
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diligentcircle
Well-Known Member
You do understand that Craig was about to file for insolvency (i.e. give up), and it was only ED's willpower that allows anyone to get their Pandoras at all? If they had filed for insolvency, only two things could have happened:
1. The entire project could have been abandoned
2. A new company could have been created to sell Pandoras to new customers
In both cases, all old preorderers would have received nothing. No refunds, no Pandoras. At least this way, you can actually get something, even if it's late.
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bismuthdrummer
Active Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2011
- Messages
- 534
1. Holy Mother Nature your post is overlong. If you desire thorough answers I'd suggest you trim it down. As you can see OPT tries their best to respond to the rants, but the longer they are...
2. I've invested in the 1 GHz, and no agreement has been made on whether I will get refunded the difference for dollar inflation and british-pound-to-dollar exchange. If it takes 5 years and I cancel in 3, I accept the risk of loss (or gain, however unlikely) in my original investment when I get it back. If my gmail account closes and my refund becomes difficult or impossible, OPT may try to help but it quite frankly isn't logically their problem. If I don't like this I shouldn't have gotten involved in a preorder scenario!
So it is not problematic for OPT, that is a false declaration. It may be distasteful or impossible for the customer to cancel, but in the end that's nobody's responsibility but their own. Had they cancelled earlier those factors wouldn't matter.
Don't take me for cold -- I do want the customer to receive their product and be satisfied. The problems you lay out may be a challenge for OPT as they try to accommodate, but I cannot see how they are the moral or business responsibility of OPT. And don't take my statements as representing anyone's opinion but my own. I am speaking just from basic business concepts.
3. You're completely one-sided. You talk of "Pandora Knights" and really give no credit to OPT at all. As articulate as you are, you sound irrationally angry to me. Not that you don't have a right to be, but your reasoning is hard to take seriously.
4. You argued that it isn't an upgrade, then turned around and stated that customers paid for the upgrade with time. You are wrong; it is an upgrade because CC boards that can be recovered are not being sent to fulfill old preorders, when they could be. You are wrong again to complain of the time cost; this is a risk adopted by the customer at the time the preorder is placed. (see #2)
EDIT: Just to clarify, you can complain of the waiting period as it draws longer, but in the context of your statements you said the wait was a cost to "pay for" the upgrade, which is at best misleading and at worst libel because when OPT said free they weren't referring to time (obviously).
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ibisum
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2009
- Messages
- 1,134
Once word of this mess gets propagated around the Kickstarter campaign, things will slow down. There must be a clear, honest, open position on what happened with Open Pandora Pty Ltd., and why there are thousands of un-happy 'contributors' to the Pandora project (financial contributors, really, not at all customers) who have STILL NOT received *anything* for their efforts in providing previous crowd-funding to Craig so he can get the hardware done. There is a real, legitimate claim that crowd-funding of Craig & Co., in the recent past, left quite a few individuals rather burned with nothing to show for their contributions.
The fact is, this situation exists: no products delivered to paying customers. However it came about, it must be adequately described with honesty. What isn't needed is 'sounding defensive' or 'fending off the insane hordes who want to destroy me' style PR positioning, rather more like "this is the history of the people involved in this project, and it includes some failures, and some successes, and this is why you should trust us", and so on. Open Pandora is tainted with intrigue regarding business failures and poor policies of the principles .. any tech reporter digging under the covers with this on their nose is going to be rewarded well, particularly if the story is filed after relative watershed moments in the iCP2 kickstarter project are attained ..
The fact is, this situation exists: no products delivered to paying customers. However it came about, it must be adequately described with honesty. What isn't needed is 'sounding defensive' or 'fending off the insane hordes who want to destroy me' style PR positioning, rather more like "this is the history of the people involved in this project, and it includes some failures, and some successes, and this is why you should trust us", and so on. Open Pandora is tainted with intrigue regarding business failures and poor policies of the principles .. any tech reporter digging under the covers with this on their nose is going to be rewarded well, particularly if the story is filed after relative watershed moments in the iCP2 kickstarter project are attained ..
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Worfje
Still Fresh
Graig & Ed, I admire your persistence & creativity in getting the Pandora to all buyers!
Keep it up!
P.S.: I am enjoying my premium 600MHz Pandora very much!
Keep it up!
P.S.: I am enjoying my premium 600MHz Pandora very much!
I agreed with Craig that he can have some 1GHz units instead of 600MHz units, certainly not all.
Also, that was before he got basically 60 free 1GHz Pandoras from me. Until I have that damage recovered, I will certainly not send out more 1GHz units that aren't paid for.
As much as I would like to, but I'm no charity. These 20K EUR are now missing and I need to recover them with new sales.
There still are 700 OMAPs left which I certainly would not like to throw away.
Craig is welcome to buy these from me so he can throw them away and we would only have 1GHz units from then on
However, I still think it is nice if we have a mid-class Pandora for a mid-price as well, so I'd like to keep selling the 600MHz units as well.
But right now, I would not expect a 1GHz unit for free if you are a classic preorderer.
So this is why people get upset this is part of a email conversation for a fully paid for 1ghz OP, so more of less being misled...
Justin Brown
Aug 8
to openpandorasal.
Do you have any available?
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 8:12 PM, openpandorasales
<openpandorasales@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry Justin, it has been a long day .
>
> If it is being shipped to the US or payment is from the US the price is $699
> plus shipping of $25 Air Mail Signed for - UPS 24/48hr $52..
>
> If from within the UK the price is $(699) £449 plus VAT of £89.80 = £538.80
> plus shipping of £8. If you placed an order now it would be despatched this
> month.
>
> If you wish to return and upgrade your original Pandora it is $500 plus
> shipping - £384 (£320 plus VAT of £64) plus shipping of £8
>
> Kind regards
> Jacquelyn
>
>
>
>
> On 8 August 2012 19:25, Justin Brown
>>
>> Oh sorry for the confusion' , I already received my old open Pandora, I
>> was wondering the cost and avaibility of a 1ghz module?
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2012 6:56 PM, "openpandorasales" <openpandorasales@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
Yes you can place a pre-order which would be despatched this month.
Thanks
Jacquelyn
Justin Brown
Aug 8
to openpandorasal.
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 8:12 PM, openpandorasales
<openpandorasales@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry Justin, it has been a long day
.>
> If it is being shipped to the US or payment is from the US the price is $699
> plus shipping of $25 Air Mail Signed for - UPS 24/48hr $52..
>
> If from within the UK the price is $(699) £449 plus VAT of £89.80 = £538.80
> plus shipping of £8. If you placed an order now it would be despatched this
> month.
>
> If you wish to return and upgrade your original Pandora it is $500 plus
> shipping - £384 (£320 plus VAT of £64) plus shipping of £8
>
> Kind regards
> Jacquelyn
>
>
>
>
> On 8 August 2012 19:25, Justin Brown
>>
>> Oh sorry for the confusion' , I already received my old open Pandora, I
>> was wondering the cost and avaibility of a 1ghz module?
>>
>> On Aug 8, 2012 6:56 PM, "openpandorasales" <openpandorasales@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
Yes you can place a pre-order which would be despatched this month.
Thanks
Jacquelyn
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skeezix
Internal Development
craigix
Mega GP Mania
Nice to know how you feel Skeetix. You know, seeing as iControlapad is a different company and all, which has ran like clockwork, and you know that CircuitCo caused all the OP problems.
But you would quote and post something like that seemingly to just try to kill our future projects?
What are you going to do? Follow Me, Ed & Michael around for the rest of our lives doing that?
So is this going to be your approach now? Try to kill our KS project?
Do you really think posts like that encourage us in any way to continue?
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skeezix
Internal Development
Dude, what the hell?
The post above is an attempt to help you, to position properly; if the news 'leaks' onto the KS, it could be a big distraction; torpor here was just suggesting that you have a ready to use statement discussing things in an honest fashion, so that if it comes up, you are ready .. not spamming something off the cuff since we all know how well you manage those -- you ahvea lot of old customers, dont' brush them under the carpet or disrespect them or get mad when they ask questions.. you are in their debt; be kind, and thoughtful of them, while keeping an eye on the future. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy my friend
Still, after all these years, of helping you out for free and promoting your platforms, you think I'm out to get you? Those of us who actually delivered a working and usable firmware for your device (_before_ Android even existed thanks very much ..
You know, I don't think _you_ have any leg to stand on in criticizing _anyone_.
I'm not taking a developer Pandora 2 from you, if you get there; I'm not touching your machines any more. I've kept on with the Pandora since I've got so much history there and worked pretty hard to build it and the community. Someday you should say thank you to all the people (and "Lintards" as you so nicely called us) who've helped you.
jeff
And you know what.. torpor posted that, and _after he'd donated to the KS_.
So yeah, I think you owe torpor an apology too.
And to ED for having taken a pile of 1ghz units in good faith, and sold them, and then giving nothign back to him, letting him carry the weight. Again.
jeff
The post above is an attempt to help you, to position properly; if the news 'leaks' onto the KS, it could be a big distraction; torpor here was just suggesting that you have a ready to use statement discussing things in an honest fashion, so that if it comes up, you are ready .. not spamming something off the cuff since we all know how well you manage those -- you ahvea lot of old customers, dont' brush them under the carpet or disrespect them or get mad when they ask questions.. you are in their debt; be kind, and thoughtful of them, while keeping an eye on the future. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy my friend
Still, after all these years, of helping you out for free and promoting your platforms, you think I'm out to get you? Those of us who actually delivered a working and usable firmware for your device (_before_ Android even existed thanks very much
..You know, I don't think _you_ have any leg to stand on in criticizing _anyone_.
I'm not taking a developer Pandora 2 from you, if you get there; I'm not touching your machines any more. I've kept on with the Pandora since I've got so much history there and worked pretty hard to build it and the community. Someday you should say thank you to all the people (and "Lintards" as you so nicely called us) who've helped you.
jeff
And you know what.. torpor posted that, and _after he'd donated to the KS_.
So yeah, I think you owe torpor an apology too.
And to ED for having taken a pile of 1ghz units in good faith, and sold them, and then giving nothign back to him, letting him carry the weight. Again.
jeff
Craig, since the iControlpad runs so well, why don't you use this "clockwork" to pay ED, deliver to your customers and then pop out of the pandora history?
You constantly keep on pissing of the people who put their free time into this project, you take money _again_ without being able to deliver, you hold competitions without delivering prices, you have 2 future projects you focus on with 3 year old preorders of your previous project unfulfilled, yet when somebody constructivly suggest you better prepare to the case someone asks you about this, you get at him, knive in hand. And it happens again and again and again.
Bets it will happen again, if people start complaining when you don't deliver iCP2s in November because of [insert random company here]?
You constantly keep on pissing of the people who put their free time into this project, you take money _again_ without being able to deliver, you hold competitions without delivering prices, you have 2 future projects you focus on with 3 year old preorders of your previous project unfulfilled, yet when somebody constructivly suggest you better prepare to the case someone asks you about this, you get at him, knive in hand. And it happens again and again and again.
Bets it will happen again, if people start complaining when you don't deliver iCP2s in November because of [insert random company here]?
diligentcircle
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I don't see how torpor's comments are offensive...
All I see is a (very good) suggestion to be ready to explain the situation if and when it comes up. We all know that the situation with preorders is CircuitCo's fault, but the press doesn't necessarily know that, and if they come out saying that the iCP2 kickstarter will end up like the Pandora preorders, it's important to be prepared to respond, explain that it only happened because they were trying to use a company that they couldn't reach, and that because of this they kept missing deadlines and making promises that they couldn't keep.
Craig needs to be prepared to assure everyone that, since the production of the iCP2 is entirely in Europe, they won't have that situation. Of course, such a response, if needed, should also mention the success of the iCP and how it, too, was manufactured entirely in Europe.
All I see is a (very good) suggestion to be ready to explain the situation if and when it comes up. We all know that the situation with preorders is CircuitCo's fault, but the press doesn't necessarily know that, and if they come out saying that the iCP2 kickstarter will end up like the Pandora preorders, it's important to be prepared to respond, explain that it only happened because they were trying to use a company that they couldn't reach, and that because of this they kept missing deadlines and making promises that they couldn't keep.
Craig needs to be prepared to assure everyone that, since the production of the iCP2 is entirely in Europe, they won't have that situation. Of course, such a response, if needed, should also mention the success of the iCP and how it, too, was manufactured entirely in Europe.
skeezix
Internal Development
-- picture of PM removed; it was a nastygram sent to me, but showing a PM is a little low class, so I'll remove it. --
This is the stuff we have to deal with.
I'm one of the Pandora parents in a small way, and I'm not giving up on the Pandora community. But I'm done with Craig.
jeff
edit: to remove the picture.
This is the stuff we have to deal with.
I'm one of the Pandora parents in a small way, and I'm not giving up on the Pandora community. But I'm done with Craig.
jeff
edit: to remove the picture.
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Wrote a lengthy response, but it seems skeezix already responded, too.
Aagh, I'm so slow, now everyone else is responding, too. Let me re-edit, again.
But here's few extra thoughts (@craig):
I think you should try to remember that everything you say in the forum also represents your company's stance. You made a good solid update (and I for one also appreciate it), and people are rejoicing because of it. Your latest post is undermining that.
I also think you're jumping to conclusions. It's quite far-fetched that anyone's going to go to the lengths of what you just described. I think people are genuinely trying to help not only you, but primarily the community, by trying to give you a little heads-up of what is likely to happen, and to remind you that you should deal with it accordingly, maybe even pre-emptively.
@skeezix, regarding the picture:
I think you should put that away, I think the situation is bad enough already...
Aagh, I'm so slow, now everyone else is responding, too. Let me re-edit, again.
But here's few extra thoughts (@craig):
I think you should try to remember that everything you say in the forum also represents your company's stance. You made a good solid update (and I for one also appreciate it), and people are rejoicing because of it. Your latest post is undermining that.
I also think you're jumping to conclusions. It's quite far-fetched that anyone's going to go to the lengths of what you just described. I think people are genuinely trying to help not only you, but primarily the community, by trying to give you a little heads-up of what is likely to happen, and to remind you that you should deal with it accordingly, maybe even pre-emptively.
@skeezix, regarding the picture:
I think you should put that away, I think the situation is bad enough already...
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