Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key
- Thread starter comradekingu
- Start date
Has anyone tried on a normal Linux keyboard whether something like that is mappable?
Also, I'm not too fond having to press THREE keys for an F-key...
fusion_power
Advanced Member
Just use the most generic standard layout that fits into the Pyra button layout, I don't want any exotic "user-made" layouts that are as crappy as the Pandora button layout. And I'm sure there are common standards for any keyboard labeling.
And again, please avoid to many "button combos" to type some special letters as much as possible!
And again, please avoid to many "button combos" to type some special letters as much as possible!
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Fusion_Power: I did the most generic standard layout. The US/UK one. the " <>| " is standard ISO 105-key. Everything else is as stock as possible.
ED: Pressing a single F-key is just ◆+F4, so its two keys instead of one. What i thought you asked is how to press for example close window, (the double keypress) Alt+F4 Which is Alt+◆+F4 (3 keypresses)
So just add a ◆ and it is functionally as if the F-row was its own set of keys.
◆ isnt encumbered with anything, so its just a standard metakey remap. Same as alt+tab on a pandora, except ◆ isnt also used for other things.
I dont know if something like tab+ins+del is possible on the pandora, nor do i really know any commands where it becomes an issue, but we stay clear of that.
Having delete and esc on backspace i dont know that works with a sufficiently complex combo.
Edit: WB: backslash as implemented here is the 0+2 key shift that is `. another reason other than the 'coding cluster' it makes sense to have it close to /, which is shift 7 If you have a 105key you have a <>| key
See the bottom left key on german layout
~ and corresponding dead key diacritics confuses me greatly, because I don't see why anyone would put tilda as a straight character when it is a compose key in some layouts.
Similarly ` i dont see much use for even though its not a compose key.
We cannot assume anything about AltGr alternates, especially on €, because it seems to change with every layout. Not marking them, even _if_ everyone had the same, is something i prefer.
That difference between our layouts is a major one. If a language has diacritics, it will likely be via aforementioned compose key on p+2. If it needs special chars, they will be on p+1 and l+2, mostly.
The exception is that some languages need 1 key, and you cover nearly everything with 4. Be it with dedicated accented chars, special letters, or ^-compose. This removes the reason to put diactrics all over
the rest of the laytout. Unless of course you want all of them, which is a very special interest, one that users of the different languages largely are very uninterested in, and especially if you take away any
of their keys. (Meaning the P+2 and L+2)
ED: Pressing a single F-key is just ◆+F4, so its two keys instead of one. What i thought you asked is how to press for example close window, (the double keypress) Alt+F4 Which is Alt+◆+F4 (3 keypresses)
So just add a ◆ and it is functionally as if the F-row was its own set of keys.
◆ isnt encumbered with anything, so its just a standard metakey remap. Same as alt+tab on a pandora, except ◆ isnt also used for other things.
I dont know if something like tab+ins+del is possible on the pandora, nor do i really know any commands where it becomes an issue, but we stay clear of that.
Having delete and esc on backspace i dont know that works with a sufficiently complex combo.
Edit: WB: backslash as implemented here is the 0+2 key shift that is `. another reason other than the 'coding cluster' it makes sense to have it close to /, which is shift 7 If you have a 105key you have a <>| key
See the bottom left key on german layout
~ and corresponding dead key diacritics confuses me greatly, because I don't see why anyone would put tilda as a straight character when it is a compose key in some layouts.
Similarly ` i dont see much use for even though its not a compose key.
We cannot assume anything about AltGr alternates, especially on €, because it seems to change with every layout. Not marking them, even _if_ everyone had the same, is something i prefer.
That difference between our layouts is a major one. If a language has diacritics, it will likely be via aforementioned compose key on p+2. If it needs special chars, they will be on p+1 and l+2, mostly.
The exception is that some languages need 1 key, and you cover nearly everything with 4. Be it with dedicated accented chars, special letters, or ^-compose. This removes the reason to put diactrics all over
the rest of the laytout. Unless of course you want all of them, which is a very special interest, one that users of the different languages largely are very uninterested in, and especially if you take away any
of their keys. (Meaning the P+2 and L+2)
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You always will have to.
There's no way to make an extra row for the F keys.
So you'll need a modifier (except you want the numbers on the modifier and the F keys as default)
So it's 2 buttons for an F key.
If you want an Alt + F combination you'll need 3 keys.
Update:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e0bda24f02c7ba340bd60d524f0582c8
Changed positions of Tab, Shift, Enter.
Reduced number of Meta labels per key: now only one with some exceptions for rare variants/alternatives of diacritics: circumflex and inverted breve, hacek and breve, cedilla and comma, umlaut and hungarian double acute, and grave and ring (both of which are typically used on "a" so makes sense to put them there).
Removed dedicated umlauted vowels, the Germans can use the two-thumb combo, remap [ ] ;, or get a custom QWERTZ keymap. Kept the Eszett (ß) though.
Removed the three currency symbols, put a universal currency symbol on "X" instead (to be localized in software, or just kept as is).
Removed Æ and Œ since for most people they are rare enough so the easy-to-remember Compose-A-E and Compose-O-E combos are good enough for them, and the relevant Scandinavians will probably want to remap a dedicated key to Æ (e.g. the ";" or "]" key).
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e0bda24f02c7ba340bd60d524f0582c8
Changed positions of Tab, Shift, Enter.
Reduced number of Meta labels per key: now only one with some exceptions for rare variants/alternatives of diacritics: circumflex and inverted breve, hacek and breve, cedilla and comma, umlaut and hungarian double acute, and grave and ring (both of which are typically used on "a" so makes sense to put them there).
Removed dedicated umlauted vowels, the Germans can use the two-thumb combo, remap [ ] ;, or get a custom QWERTZ keymap. Kept the Eszett (ß) though.
Removed the three currency symbols, put a universal currency symbol on "X" instead (to be localized in software, or just kept as is).
Removed Æ and Œ since for most people they are rare enough so the easy-to-remember Compose-A-E and Compose-O-E combos are good enough for them, and the relevant Scandinavians will probably want to remap a dedicated key to Æ (e.g. the ";" or "]" key).
Shoulder button modifiers to the rescue! We have only two thumbs, but still, e.g. L1+L2+R1+R2+Q will not be hard to do on the Pyra. That would be Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F1.
On the Pandora, there are only 2 shoulder buttons, so no shoulder modifier for Alt and Fn/Meta. That makes anything involving Alt and F-keys nearly impossible on the Pandora. I configured all my shortcuts to combinations with Ctrl and Shift, avoiding Alt, precisely for that reason.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Shift on left shoulder isnt such a bad idea, because then you dont have to end a sentence with the right hand. Only to have to be forced to use that same hand to capitalize the next word, which is the start of a sentence.
Doing away with shift on keyboard is really radical though, risky stuff.
As I cant think of anything to change. I'm trying to think of a problematic combo on the layout i have: Lets say the backspace button is directly backspace, but delete and escape when hit through modifiers.
Are there any combos that are delete and/or backspace and/or esc that _also_ use something else that uses altGR?
Lets say someone wants escape+delete+€ Which is a standard anti-EU command. ( on my layout € is altGR+E )
Pressing (meta+backspace) for escape+(altGr+backspace) for delete if it works on its own, i dont know if can be combined with an additional + €, because thats AltGr again. Can you hold backspace that has been modified, release AltGR and get a new AltGR mod-button into play?
My layout
( Press Hold Release )
Press ◆, press ⟵ release ◆ press altGR, release ⟵ press ⟵ release altGR press altGR, release ⟵ press E release altGR, release E
E s c a p e + d e l e t e + €
L1 ⟵ L1 R2 ⟵ ⟵ R2 R2 ⟵ E R2 E
L1111111111111111111111111111
⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵
R2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵
R2222222222222222222222222222222222222
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Doing away with shift on keyboard is really radical though, risky stuff.
As I cant think of anything to change. I'm trying to think of a problematic combo on the layout i have: Lets say the backspace button is directly backspace, but delete and escape when hit through modifiers.
Are there any combos that are delete and/or backspace and/or esc that _also_ use something else that uses altGR?
Lets say someone wants escape+delete+€ Which is a standard anti-EU command. ( on my layout € is altGR+E )
Pressing (meta+backspace) for escape+(altGr+backspace) for delete if it works on its own, i dont know if can be combined with an additional + €, because thats AltGr again. Can you hold backspace that has been modified, release AltGR and get a new AltGR mod-button into play?
My layout
( Press Hold Release )
Press ◆, press ⟵ release ◆ press altGR, release ⟵ press ⟵ release altGR press altGR, release ⟵ press E release altGR, release E
E s c a p e + d e l e t e + €
L1 ⟵ L1 R2 ⟵ ⟵ R2 R2 ⟵ E R2 E
L1111111111111111111111111111
⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵
R2222222222222222222222222222222222222222
⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵⟵
R2222222222222222222222222222222222222
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Try typing this and you always have to hold one thing down:
L1 ⟵ R2 ⟵ R2 E
L1 ⟵ R2 ⟵ R2 E
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Why not? You don't want the Pyra keyboard to have a default layout and labeling? Or you think single-width space bar is not an option?
elw3
ƐʍlƎ
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2010
- Messages
- 1,859
They are usually written with the compose key anyway.
You cant have an Wild X there. Booth are absolutely needed as $ is vital for codes.
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Saber
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2012
- Messages
- 1,303
Took another jab at my own layout(full write-up in that other keyboard thread in my sig):
http://i.imgur.com/56lZhsa.png
Quite fond of the Compose key option and although it's letters are not off centered like some of the layouts here, it gets the job done without sacrificing much of anything.
http://i.imgur.com/56lZhsa.png
Quite fond of the Compose key option and although it's letters are not off centered like some of the layouts here, it gets the job done without sacrificing much of anything.
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I surely don't want a keyboard I can't understand when I'm looking at it but just see tons of o''s with dots...
ZXDunny
Deep avatar
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,585
I'm not sure that needing digital gymnastics just to press alt-f4 is going to be very much fun. There's really not a lot wrong with the current Pandora layout as far as I can see - and that has a nice-sized space bar.
I'm with ED on this one - if a decent amount of users need dots above their O's, then it should be considered, but I'm not sure that the vast majority of Pandora users need them and I can't see the Pyra being much more popular to be honest.
D.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
They are called germans, and I am _only_ implementing it when germans (or anyone else) swap to/select their language. If you read firstpost you will see where the change is. Its in the red cluster.
The button layout is changed on the pyra, so anything beyond F4 is in any event going to be more than one click. If you read firstpost you will see where the change is. There is a picture of the PCB.
Im thinking of putting codepoints.net/U+1F4AC on the L+2, it doesnt work on my debian jessie, how to fix? Its a speech bubble. Which can double as click-to-speek if you just select english.
Alternatives would be a generic flag, or a globe. Or something coding related/not typing related/non-necessity .
If you dont already do it in the installer, the idea was the user presses those thinking their regional stuff will be there, and then it prompts the user to ask what that is.
A puzzlepieze on meta L1, that fits with a corresponding puzzlepiece on the set of F-s ties together better than ◆. Puzzle means something, meta, not so much.
Possibly there could be some kind of clue as to the shoulderbuttons being input, because that isnt evident for the user. If its printed somewhere in plain sight when you see the keyboard, maybe a symbol on the case, a sticker or something.
The button layout is changed on the pyra, so anything beyond F4 is in any event going to be more than one click. If you read firstpost you will see where the change is. There is a picture of the PCB.
Im thinking of putting codepoints.net/U+1F4AC on the L+2, it doesnt work on my debian jessie, how to fix? Its a speech bubble. Which can double as click-to-speek if you just select english.
Alternatives would be a generic flag, or a globe. Or something coding related/not typing related/non-necessity .
If you dont already do it in the installer, the idea was the user presses those thinking their regional stuff will be there, and then it prompts the user to ask what that is.
A puzzlepieze on meta L1, that fits with a corresponding puzzlepiece on the set of F-s ties together better than ◆. Puzzle means something, meta, not so much.
Possibly there could be some kind of clue as to the shoulderbuttons being input, because that isnt evident for the user. If its printed somewhere in plain sight when you see the keyboard, maybe a symbol on the case, a sticker or something.
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Many times I have considered suggesting this for various things mentioned in this thread. I didn't because it will increase costs, and users should RTFM if they don't know what is going on before they get their Pyra.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
True enough, there is nothing on the shoulders you absolutely need to get by. So i suppose its ok enough. Would be nice if the actual shoulder was marked somehow though.
Maybe L1 L2 R1 R2 isnt he best marking? Left and right is ok, but 1 could be top since its the main finger, or 1 could be bottom. Nah, that wasnt a good idea, stick with L1L2 R1R2 and maybe mark it in colour, or something else that ties it in with its counterpart on the keyboard in the same colour.
Maybe L1 L2 R1 R2 isnt he best marking? Left and right is ok, but 1 could be top since its the main finger, or 1 could be bottom. Nah, that wasnt a good idea, stick with L1L2 R1R2 and maybe mark it in colour, or something else that ties it in with its counterpart on the keyboard in the same colour.
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Rereading what I said, It can seem brash. That wasn't my intention. I merely meant I was thinking the same way, and thought it might help with certain marking along the top and sides of keyboard, but I thought the added cost was not worth it. If shoulder buttons will have designated non-gaming functions by default it might be worth having them labeled. The same for the face buttons, but I think that would mean labeling the case. I don't know what would be considered too much or too little labeling. At least some HP palmtops have tons of stuff labeled.
I stand by RTFM if you don't know how to input certain things, though.
I stand by RTFM if you don't know how to input certain things, though.
