WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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- May 24, 2008
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Says you. Your opinion, stated as fact, which it is not.
Comparison matrix for keyboard layout proposals
- Thread starter Grench
- Start date
ible
professional vim user
continuing to keep link handy:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit
I decided to weight "Dedicated Esc key" with negative points, because a non-dedicated escape is in the keyboard area (Fn+Q in Saber and my layouts), which would be easier to hit (when typing letters) than something above the nubs. I'm thinking for things like writing in vi, I want Esc to be a quicker combo.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit
I decided to weight "Dedicated Esc key" with negative points, because a non-dedicated escape is in the keyboard area (Fn+Q in Saber and my layouts), which would be easier to hit (when typing letters) than something above the nubs. I'm thinking for things like writing in vi, I want Esc to be a quicker combo.
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For things like Esc : wq it does not matter that much, because if : is at the right, the left thumb has time to travel from Esc to W.
A dedicated Esc near the dpad makes sense to me. Fn/Meta+Q is also OK, it works well enough on the Pandora, but it's a bit of a pity to ruin the natural location for ` ~.
Dedicated Esc is particularly practical for people who don't use the shoulder buttons and who navigate menus where Esc is used as "Back"; in that case having Esc near the dpad makes sense (both are used to navigate the menus), and it is practical to have Esc as a non-Fn/Meta key if you have to press it repeatedly.
But I don't have a very strong opinion on this. It just seems like a good use of that top-left-most button.
Well, if placement of labels on http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d7e5a0dab3f707566068e641e29c84d9isn't arbitrary than I'm obviously not sophisticated enough. Beyond QWERTY and the F keys it is totally devoid of any discernible methodology, at least to my eyes. I'm amazed that one can actually believe that it will be easier to type fluent German (or whatever) on this than using compose, which while needing much more presses has the major benefit of being easy to remember. Even after training it isn't obvious whether < or > has the dead circumflex, for example. Thanks, I do appreciate the effort, but compared to B-Zar's layout http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e97a9926d50ea4ddf4c2daf2793d0abb it is really no improvement.
ible
professional vim user
Looking at the Pyra hardware, the inner upper keys look harder to reach, even if using the nubs, so I thought it more natural to put functions you might actually want to use in game on the outer upper keys. If I were to add some non hardware buttons up top, one might be an extra mouse button:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d10d1a02381162045c5efb07daf1fc47
(Here the LED button works like _wb_ had in a few layouts previous -- shift to get keyboard LEDs, Meta to dim. The hardware button could be reduced to one gear button symbol, but this is the functionality I might cram in it if I could.)
Perhaps they could be put in as M3 and M4 (mouse 3 and 4), so they don't duplicate nub presses, but I would probably have a default map to M1 and M2.
While Q might be "natural" for ~, I still would prefer the possibility of mapping it to Esc myself, so I put a symbol I wouldn't probably use there
.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d10d1a02381162045c5efb07daf1fc47
(Here the LED button works like _wb_ had in a few layouts previous -- shift to get keyboard LEDs, Meta to dim. The hardware button could be reduced to one gear button symbol, but this is the functionality I might cram in it if I could.)
Perhaps they could be put in as M3 and M4 (mouse 3 and 4), so they don't duplicate nub presses, but I would probably have a default map to M1 and M2.
While Q might be "natural" for ~, I still would prefer the possibility of mapping it to Esc myself, so I put a symbol I wouldn't probably use there
.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
How hard is it to grasp that Android, being a new (graphical) interface, is popular for reasons other than being new, but the moment you try to change a keyboard, it fails. The logic is inherrent in the statement.
Not only for the worse, but also for the better, like dvorak said. "``I'm tired of trying to do something worthwhile for the human race,'' he said. ``They simply don't want to change!''
Calling something "kingu-logic", even if you are right, is a personal attack.
The german keyboard is the german keyboard, there is no remarkable discovery to be made. I am no german myself, but the sentiment seems to be that the pandora audience arent ok with the almost-good from Android-land.
I'll try to make regional variants.
Not only for the worse, but also for the better, like dvorak said. "``I'm tired of trying to do something worthwhile for the human race,'' he said. ``They simply don't want to change!''
Calling something "kingu-logic", even if you are right, is a personal attack.
The german keyboard is the german keyboard, there is no remarkable discovery to be made. I am no german myself, but the sentiment seems to be that the pandora audience arent ok with the almost-good from Android-land.
I'll try to make regional variants.
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WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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No, it really isn't.
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned there. If you can't change people to match your unique view of the world, perhaps your view of the world needs to be adjusted to take that into consideration.
- Neelix
MrConfusion
Very Active Member
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Don't say "people" after you've exchanged PMs with a scandinavian person who on those PMs told you that he has often paid extra money to NOT have a scandinavian keyboard in his computer. That person being me
. People are different....
Android... riiiight.... what did it replace for many people on arrival? A 3*4 keyboard matrix with some additional navigation buttons at top? Of course you find that an improvement, especially if you never used something like a Nokia communicator... which many people I know considered hideously expensive when I got one. Yet now those same people happily buy more expensive Samsungs because you get tits and kitten videos on the Samsungs... it's not the "cool input methods" people flock to, it is something far more elementary, convenient and even trend-like. The Pyra won't cash in on those trends. Having said that, I'm not against "Androiding" the Pyra keyboard, because I believe it would improve the Pyra's early review averages... the dissappointment comes later then ;-).
...
Referring to both the last quote above and some other comments I've read from you during the last few days: If you are now toying with the idea that the Pyra would be available with different keymats (an idea I've commented on before, actually... but maybe it's worth a recap...):
1. If the alternative keymaps use "; , ' , [ and ]" for national chars you might open a woolly tarball for developers who basically donate their time as it is.
2. You cannot put any weight or hopes on such an idea until ED confirms it is possible!
3. Many Pandora keymats were delivered to recycling because there never was use for them - were too many ordered, or was it just that they need to be ordered in larger amounts, no idea. I bet ED does not want to sit on similar assets for the Pyra, so preorders it would have to be!
4. 500 (see quote) is a LOT! Man, how many Pandoras are out there total!?
5. My totally non-research-based-gut-wrenching-hunch is that if custom keymats would materialize, gaming & emulation related "collectors editions" would prove more popular than national mats.
6. It might be nontrivial for ED to provide such keymats at launch, when there's enough hassle going on as it is... how many users are willing to switch afterwards?
Personally: There is still no "default keylayout" I'd want for the Pyra at launch, simply because I would need to use the device for a considerable time before settling on a map. I need to touch it, to se it, to see where my fingers reach easily and how I end up holding it. So, completely blank keys would still be best. Second best is pure qwerty+numbers+blanks, third best "exotic", like C64.
Eight Bit
Hardcore Member
Well if you want a completely non-arbitrary keyboard, then I suggest a layout where the letters are sorted alphabetically instead of an arbitrary order like QWERTY
The methodology in the Meta-labels
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d7e5a0dab3f707566068e641e29c84d9
is as follows:
- standard ASCII punctuation symbols (which are on the right hand side of a normal US-QWERTY symbol) are on the right half
- the left half has multilingual features:
dead diacritics in a cluster on ' " , . < > ~ ` - a cluster of German-keyboard keys Ü Ö Ä ß ° € § on the "north" part: ÜÖÄ are in the same shape as on a German keyboard, € is on E and ß is on S;
- a cluster of other letters for "Southern European" languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian) on the "south" part
Let me train you to find the dead diacritics for circumflex (âêîôû) and caron (ǎěǐǒǔ) :
◌ is a placeholder for a letter to put a diacritic on
◌> is a circumflex (tilt your head to the right and you'll see why)
◌< is a caron (tilt your head to the right and you'll see why)
Shouldn't be too hard to remember once you 'see' it. After all, there is no such thing as a "circumflex below" or "caron below", so you can't tilt your head the wrong way to interpret the symbols. If you don't need these accents (or only rarely), you can of course also just use the Compose method instead.
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
Cute... I had wondered at the rationale behind that. To be honest though I think it would make more sense to put É and È up on the top row near E and move ° and € to the bottom row.
- Neelix
comradekingu
Glowing ember
People is the plural of "person" and may also refer to:Don't say "people" after you've exchanged PMs with a scandinavian person who on those PMs told you that he has often paid extra money to NOT have a scandinavian keyboard in his computer. That person being me
...
Android... riiiight.... what did it replace for many people on arrival? A 3*4 keyboard matrix with some additional navigation buttons at top? Of course you find that an improvement, especially if you never used something like a Nokia communicator... which many people I know considered hideously expensive when I got one. Yet now those same people happily buy more expensive Samsungs because you get tits and kitten videos on the Samsungs... it's not the "cool input methods" people flock to, it is something far more elementary, convenient and even trend-like. The Pyra won't cash in on those trends. Having said that, I'm not against "Androiding" the Pyra keyboard, because I believe it would improve the Pyra's early review averages... the dissappointment comes later then ;-).
...
Referring to both the last quote above and some other comments I've read from you during the last few days: If you are now toying with the idea that the Pyra would be available with different keymats (an idea I've commented on before, actually... but maybe it's worth a recap...):
1. If the alternative keymaps use "; , ' , [ and ]" for national chars you might open a woolly tarball for developers who basically donate their time as it is.
2. You cannot put any weight or hopes on such an idea until ED confirms it is possible!
3. Many Pandora keymats were delivered to recycling because there never was use for them - were too many ordered, or was it just that they need to be ordered in larger amounts, no idea. I bet ED does not want to sit on similar assets for the Pyra, so preorders it would have to be!
4. 500 (see quote) is a LOT! Man, how many Pandoras are out there total!?
5. My totally non-research-based-gut-wrenching-hunch is that if custom keymats would materialize, gaming & emulation related "collectors editions" would prove more popular than national mats.
6. It might be nontrivial for ED to provide such keymats at launch, when there's enough hassle going on as it is... how many users are willing to switch afterwards?
Personally: There is still no "default keylayout" I'd want for the Pyra at launch, simply because I would need to use the device for a considerable time before settling on a map. I need to touch it, to se it, to see where my fingers reach easily and how I end up holding it. So, completely blank keys would still be best. Second best is pure qwerty+numbers+blanks, third best "exotic", like C64.
- A people, a coherent social group or ethnic group.
Its an ad populus argument, but not one that makes you part, its only what constitutes the group, for how much it makes sense to talk about groups. I didnt say there werent exceptions, alas I never said all people are perfectly fine with it, i said that people are very ok with new interfaces. I meant it, and I re-explained it, to mean graphical interfaces. As for keyboards, the international users voted for putting A to the left of the keyboard, whereas less than that voted for putting it one letter to the right, making none of the international languages fit.
I had a nokia e61, and i wrote more text and was more online with that, than my current S2. There are many people like us, but consider how many dont use their regional layouts for serious typing, and you have to acknowledge its worth. Yes Android improved on symbian while it went backwards on the input, i think the pandora improved on both, and that there is room for improvement yet.
If i didnt consider the rationality of things, i wouldnt have anything worthwile to present. From my point of view the default works for international use, which is zero risk for additional benefit.
I think 6000+ pandoras have been made. We dont know how many werent sold over this issue, but its the major gripe for many international users.
Hehe, i would totally buy a Notaz-edition pro-model pyra. Collectors often buy one of each, which is no small percentage of the total considering it isnt prohibitivly expensive to produce additional keymats and colours. Its a shame that these units sit in their boxen and never get any use though.
Some pandora-users are even willing to cut into their keymats to make it AZERTY, i think the default i presented makes for the most opportunity in making additional keymats, and the least amount of hacking to make into something international users can type on. Other than efficiency, which is a primary concern, thats what i tried to correct from the pandora-layout.
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Eight Bit
Hardcore Member
Just posting here to mention that the keyboards I made that are in the matrix spreadsheet are no longer up to date. I had made about 7 or 8 different variaties but I made a selection of the best ones (imo ) and ended up with 4 good ones, all different styles.
The latest versions are in the final proposals thread.
The latest versions are in the final proposals thread.
ible
professional vim user
if ED says he'll look at it, then there might be a reason to update it...
Saber
Advanced Member
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- Jan 23, 2012
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Doubt ED gave it a second glance.
But I still want to look at it soon.
Keymat hardware design is almost finished, so it's time for the layout, whether I like that or not.
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