Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key

[comradekingu]

Here is some explanation of my latest layout proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/91c54052517b3c24ae270d8620777af1


I want the default layout to work "out of the box" for most people -- with labels matching what the keys actually do! With remapping, everything can be tweaked however you want (as long as there is no double width space bar). But it's not nice to force most people to remap.

It is much nicer allowing people to remap well, especially if they can not remap _the whole keyboard_ but only the P+2 and L+2. Which is selecting a regional layout profile. The first letter is in the right position, which is a very good start, but there are still problems.

In my latest proposal, it is very easy to type é ü ī ô à ł ž ç ñ: they are not dedicated keys,

If they arent dedicated already we are running into problems for the people who have the most use for them, placing them in standard positions which is different for everyone is the easiest for us and them, and it is the convention.

but e.g. L2+E E should be almost as easy to do as just a capital E (L1+E). It's one thumb double-tap.

Typing a capital E is shift+E, this is convention, and nobody has yet provided a keyboard that doesnt have shift, which i take to mean that for most people, typing still happens with regular shift in the regular place.

Those already cover a lot of French, German, Spanish, and the Slavic languages.

It covers french and spanish with extra effort to type each (non-latin A-Z) special-key in a non-standard way. It does not cover their keyboards. We are not clever enough to change their keyboards. Of the selection you provided, it does not cover german, or (high or low) germannic languages.


languages. If you mean baltic balto-slavic languages like Lithuanian that slavs speak/type, still no, and if you actually mean east balto-slavic, ie. cyrillic letter languages, that russians and ukrainians type, then especially no.

The other cases of those 9 diacritics are also reasonably easy to type: e.g. to get ø it's just L2+L O, to get è it's just L2+A E,

How about this, for those that use ø for anything other than diameter, ø is ø. I want Ø, i press Ø. I dont know how to type è, but the ones i do know how to type is by the compose key, which is in a standard position.

to get Ş it's just L2+C S, and so on. Always two thumb actions.

This is always one thumb action and one shoulder action short of good. You cover the most languages perfectly if you give them their standard keys. Not their letters, their keys.

As for keyboard-layouts that incorporate "Ş" Like for example turkish or Azerbaijani the latter is one of the very few that uses more than 4, which means they have to map enter and space on shoulders. From a market viewpoint over 4 isnt as important. But as you decrese from 4, the hacks get uglier and uglier, to the point where it isnt usable at 0.

Kurdish works with 4

Of course if there are particular symbols your language uses a lot, you can always remap keys to better suit your needs. E.g. if you need Å or ß, it makes sense to remap a dedicated key to it.

If you are in need of Å, then you also need Ø and Æ just as much. Which is why they are all separate keys on respective layouts. Or Ä Ö Å. Same with Ä Ö Ü in german. Yes german has ß, but on the standard german layout that is a compose action. Its the opposite on small but good german NEO, but importantly, it is always the same extra keys.

For the other symbols, you still need the compose key method. I couldn't find a spot for a dedicated compose key in my latest proposal,

Its the key you used for "F12 ]}" very wise move, since those are not integral. One can map ]} back to 9 and 0, or do without.

so it's at L2+Tab (although you could remap the keyboard shift to it, since L1 is a better shift key anyway).

Shift is at least one key, and if shift on new shoulders work, which we dont know yet, taking away shift from the keyboard is quite radical. You having used the pandora shoulders for keyboard things is a selection bias. My gripe with this is that its hard to communicate to people. "use" your regular keys for the regular stuff. It isnt marked, but it has the function you intend. Europeans are already used to this, some keyboards have lots of markings on the P+2 and L+2. Cyrillic combo keyboards already have 2 letters on each key, which means they can get away with typing on QWERTY so long as A has their equivalent char (as opposed to starting on left tab or caps lock, and getting everything shifted 1 char.)

To get Å with the compose key method it's L2+Tab O L1+A (three thumb actions), which is OK if you occasionally have to type the word "Ångström", but not OK if you're a Scandinavian. Same with Æ, Ø, Ä, Ö for Scandinavians/Germans: they may want to remap [ ] ; or maybe just Meta+something to get those letters in one thumb action.

The germans want P+1 and L+2  you have P+2 and L+1, this is a practical approach to a +3 keyboard remapping enter (L→2-key) on your layout means you have to remap that somewhere else too.

I think we ought to have P+2 and L+2 because that works standard with the most amount of languages, basically everything, giving us the least amount of trouble. Trouble that is directly related to the saleability of the standard keyboard in ok estimate half the market it is sold in.  Trying to reinvent typing or change habits is something we could explore, but for now thats what we have that people want the most.

As a scandinavian, we have already dealt with doing away with runes. And we accept that some languages have less letters in their alphabet than they use the sounds for.


Unless you write phonetical english or german, which you decidedly dont if you are part of any majority anywhere that matters, you have no use for Å.  Typing Ångström is not a usecase, and it wasnt even on the pandora.

Google it and pick þeir preferred spelling.


Putting a Å or a ring above anything on a keyboard is foreign to people. We do not want to have foreign stuff on a keyboard.


All people who use strange letters with any frequency have them in P+2 and L+2, because that is standard keyboard setup. If its not their letters, its their way of composing sounds that they use.

 

[comradekingu]

For a standard keyboard, you need 30 typing keys, im not sure what wb can do, but once you relinquish the idea of dedicated keys for dedicated buttons you have already lost that argument for how other people than the english ones are concerned. And its not like anyone can do anything about the premise of the argument. There are more letters than 26 because there are more sounds than 26, in all languages.

It stops being a practical approach to keyboard design, which only makes mathematical sense at 30, and becomes a theoretical hackery, that is as broken when it lands, as it is when you only change it slightly.

My solution is to bank on the stock latin letters and the QWERTY layout with stock number-row, with standard symbols that is what people know. Bring-your-own mindset.

To quote Dr.Dvorak "I'm tired of trying to do something worthwhile for the human race, they simply don't want to change!"

I can fully understand that Dvorak, or other things is better, or could be better. I even mentally prefer having the number row 987654.., like on the original dvorak-layout.  but it doesn't change the fact that I cant type for toffee on a dvorak-keyboard.
 
 
While remapping is much better than relearning, like wb is proposing, that isn't even what we are really talking about.
 
When you install Debian, you select your locale and keyboard orientation before you type in your name. Which allows your name to be what your name is. 

We already know the orientation, 64key pyra-layout, so we dont need to ask about that.
Its easier with every version. You could supply the capitol of your country, and derive your timezone and language from there. There are many ways, but 'the debian way' works and always has done.


The only thing you really change from the default in how it looks on the keyboard is the P+2 and L+2.

Spoiler

The keys that are by default on these keys, are brackets, which is visually unobtrusive, and they go right back where they belong on altGR+7890 for the layouts that arent UK english. Most people dont even need brackets.

Away goes the double space, which doesnt make sense unless its dead centre. Motorical precision is at its greatest, similar to keys where it is, so no need for it to be big other than recognisability. Enter and backspace and shift and so on are also more recognisable in their full form, and they arent, because that works and space is limited.

Away goes the right shift, which is mislabeled leftshift on the dev-PCB. There is still left shift.

If you need more than 3, which is very rarely the case, you lose tab which you have to relocate because its often the compose key when you have 3.

Keys could be shipped blank, but doing so is silly on 64keys total.

So then the English get their way fully, with their layout on P+2andL+2 keys instead of partially (with reduced layout, no P+2andL+2 keys). 

Going with reduced English is an exclusivist argument, it only accommodates English, and throws everything else overboard. Standard amount of keys is a better solution for all, but crucial to those who arent english.

Which means the user has to supply their muscle memory to type those keys, this works. And it is already the case with many many layouts which have non regional or combined imprints on P+2andL+2.
 
So by including everyone, +4 standard setup is even better for the english, which are used to their standard layout.
 
All you do is apply the full keyboard to fit with the pyra keyboard, meaning the +4 aren't extending off the right side, but fit in.
 
To illustrate, for the russians:
A is a ф  S is a ы  D is a B and so on, like they are used to on their keyboards  instead of
tab is ф A is ы S is B

 

[_wb_]

I never said remapping is to be avoided. I just want the default to make sense too. If you remap, labels are irrelevant anyway (unless you cut up keymats like Askarus). I plan to stick to the default, provided it makes sense. I like it when labels correspond to reality.

 

[comradekingu]

Labels arent irrelevant when you change keys. Which is why i adviced changing the enter-key on your upside-down +3 layout.  Upside down because thats how people are going to change it for the most part.

Changing keys by selecting your language in the installer is as easy and non obtrusive as can be if the keys you change in turn have negligible effects. (as in losing [ ] only to move it where it is according to said change)

For example with my proposed layout you have to reassign tab if you want a true +4 layout, because the p+2 position often is a compose-key.  It could be a shoulder, but that is different from ctrl+meta+alt+altgr which we are thinking of having there, (and has the most testing there), and a bit different from shoulder-shift, to not confuse that galvanic separation, i think shift meta+left on the d-pad could be tab. That way its closer to its default position on a keyboard, and it never has to change. All +4 keys are then assignable without any considerable loss. What do you think?

And by seperation i very much have my mind set on not accidentally turning off 3G because because there are input chars where the dedicated powercontrol-buttons are. Come on...   If i want something, i either know where it is, or look for it where it should be, up there is never it, unless its power control.

Then there are changes to the default visual layout. As done by cutting into things. Its not irrelevant there either. Lets say you move from QWERTY to QWERTZ, if Z also has / on it, like on the pandora, you have to move that too. Things like that stops being fun when you mess up the reason why / is only less centrally located than . and .   /which/makes/sense  also its close to backslash, not so if its in the 6th position of the top row.

Thats why the more junk and hacks you pile on, the uglier it gets.  Both visually and technically.

Having the standard set of symbols where everyone expects them (based on their own expections) is so much better than printing them everywhere. For a visually more clean layout, and one that is more international, you end up having to look at the cheat-sheet once in a while, but only for the things you dont know already. And what the user knows already, is the standard, implemented in the standard way on the standard key position.

Being able to remap 'anything' is a second rate argument do doing things right, not in terms of marking on the keys that are going to see change, and providing a good default, which is a different locale for each regional layout. Thats what we need to focus on.

Any way one sets out to solve anything, we arrive at this.  Reduced 26-key layout, UK/US/Australia   Full layout, UK/US/Australia even better, and the whole rest of the world.

 

[_wb_]

Mapping Tab to L1+L2+left is going to confuse lots of games. Better not have any modifier actions on the dpad and action buttons.

I somewhat agree with your point about not putting regular keys on the top row (reserving them only for hardware toggles), but on the other hand, it's the only reasonable location for Esc I can think of.

I like the bottom right part of your proposal, except I would still switch Tab and ], and I would put ? and | on the Meta+Shift+,. keys.

Putting the F-keys on Meta+letters is not so nice because people may want to map their favorite symbols there (e.g. Meta+E could be €, Meta+O could be Ö or Ô or Ø). It's of course nice that you can fit all 12 of them in one row, but I still prefer them on the number row.

I also still think it is nice to have dead key diacritics and a compose key. Regardless of what layout you use for the P+2 and L+2 keys, you may still want to type other special symbols reasonably efficiently, without having to remember all their self-defined positions.

 

[comradekingu]

The number row is nice because F-keys are upwards, but they arent meant to be on the numbers row either. You could say the same about numberrow, and numberrow is already fullmapped.

Slaeshjag was adament about AltGR on shoulders, and AltGR has to be somewhere. Just because it creates so much trouble if everything it does has to be reimplemented.

The big problem is Having F1-F12 needs 12 a key-wide row, otherwise it looks like someone tried to cram a layout into an ill-fitting amount of keys, not good.

AltGr+e = € 

^+O=Ö

Shift+^=Ô

I uploaded some proposals in firstpost. I had to change yours around a bit to get it up to par with what the others have going on.

I placed ? at 0+1  pipe | is supposed to be at 1-1, but we dont have that key. So i placed it in the "coding cluster"

Thought about the tab issue, so i left it as tab. Would have to be pyrabutton (super)  + left

Its a hard bargain, and we have to see what makes sense. Esc is falling out of fashion. But its not like alt+f4 is the easiest thing to replace it with when thats alt+meta+f4

In my head all that stuff belongs on backspace, because its a destructive key so meta+backspace is delete. Similar to what it was on the pandora, only that works with combos.

The big issue is  ;:'"   isnt only for coding.  Its a bit lame, because <> is the key to the left of z on a 105-key ISO-layout.  and the "standard position" of <> on bottom right is where ;: should be.

shift+, is ;    and shift+. is :    makes all the sense in the world.    And thats very close to where ' is too.

So what i want to do is take / and backslash, put them on the ;:'" back to , and ; and tab back to F12, because tab and / next to eachother in terminal is nice.

Edit: The UK and US < on , and > on . makes _no sense_ 

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f906d9ed7192d371c4bab6926016b6b3  

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2d384b62a0f6e4d540f719c21fb5056c

{[   and ]}  is in the standard spot according to US and UK.

The  " >< | " is the one thats far left bottom on a 105-key, so that makes sense.

the coding cluster is now complete. With nothing that is needed for typing. Tab is still very much the issue. One of those is the dreaded p+2 l+1 which is just the wrong way around, the other is tab on compose-key. (p+2)

One could put tab on altGR +Q, but that is the ugliest hack of all time, and it looks really unprofessional.

I was trying around with the pandora, and since the Dpad is centric to moving the cursor in text manipulation (for normal people) i  think maybe P2+→ makes sense.

If pyra is super, and you press right, that works.  pyra+→ is tab  and then tab is always tab.

Here goes: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4680f5ab3392999beb2c7693ebd46fb7

There is a key spare that isnt assigned to something, which B-Zar asked for. Something coding related that isn't needed otherwise is what should be on it though. Maybe if you press it, you get the language selection prompt?  Like a "oh, you meant to do this thing, well there should be a key here, but what key, select a language here"  Its going to be mistaken for space if its just open like that. Maybe a pictogram that has something to do with language?

Shift + ABXY+2s are + and -     well well...

No key has more than 3 things.

select+→ is tab

select+  right abxy is shift+alt+tab   select + right abxy is alt+tab       (yes, i think a macro for switching windows is needed)

backspace is also escape and delete

Currently most updated layout of mine at the time of writing:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/98d2b40a419c44b935252f84fcd9ef2c

 

[bzar]

There is a key spare that isnt assigned to something, which B-Zar asked for. Something coding related that isn't needed otherwise is what should be on it though. Maybe if you press it, you get the language selection prompt?  Like a "oh, you meant to do this thing, well there should be a key here, but what key, select a language here"  Its going to be mistaken for space if its just open like that. Maybe a pictogram that has something to do with language?

As long as its function is defined as unspecified. We could have some configuration application to define what it does (mostly modifies xmodmap). Depending on the user it may be used as a normal key, a modifier key with fully custom combinations, or something like proposed above. The main point is to have an easily reachable block of unspecified key bindings that can be used without the fear of overmapping application-specific key bindings.
TBH, I'd be happy with pandora-like layout and a key like that

 

[_wb_]

Another update of my proposal, using some of comradekingu's ideas:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dbb8a230ccd42182321fc7cea6e85dc6

 
Yes, it may look a bit scary, but we are geeks who can deal with that. Functionality above form, remember? It's not just scary for the sake of being scary. It's useful scary. Also remember that the Meta labels will have another color, so they won't distract that much from the primary keys.


The main advantage is that it has decent out of the box support for about all Latin-based alphabets, as well as room for remapping to the right of P, L and M if you want to do that.
 
It has dead key diacritics for all of the reasonably frequently used diacritics:
acute( ´ ), double acute(˝ ), grave( ` ), breve( ˘ ), caron, háček( ˇ ), cedilla( ¸ ), circumflex( ˆ ), diaeresis, umlaut( ¨ ), dot(both dot above, ◌̇, and dot below, ◌̣), hook (   ̡  ), macron( ¯ ), ogonek, nosinė( ˛ ), ring( ˚ ), bar( ◌̸ ), comma( , ), tilde( ~ ).

That means that you can type nearly all letters used in European languages with only two thumb presses, including all you need for French, German, Dutch, Scandinavian languages, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Polish, Czech, Hungarian, Turkish, Romanian.

Additionally, all symbols from a German keyboard are available in just one thumb press (üöäß and even µ), as well as all the not-particularly-useful symbols from the Pandora (€ ₤ ¥ §).

Also, the entire number row is still available to assign custom Meta symbols to, which is convenient if you are used to having a localized number row (like on e.g. French or Czech keyboards).

Another nice thing about this layout is that if you just need ASCII characters for coding, almost everything is available without needing Meta, and almost everything is in its standard QWERTY location.

Some of this is inspired by the Canadian Multilingual Standard layout, the Finnish Multilingual layout, and the standard Czech and Hungarian keyboards. In particular, one thing all these layouts share is that they have a lot of dead key diacritics. Dead key diacritics are a good compromise between dedicated accented keys (e.g. the one keypress É on a French keyboard or the Ü on a German one) and the three-keypress compose key method (e.g. Compose-'-E to get É, Compose-"-U to get Ü).

 

[_wb_]

There is a key spare that isnt assigned to something, which B-Zar asked for. Something coding related that isn't needed otherwise is what should be on it though. Maybe if you press it, you get the language selection prompt?  Like a "oh, you meant to do this thing, well there should be a key here, but what key, select a language here"  Its going to be mistaken for space if its just open like that. Maybe a pictogram that has something to do with language?

As long as its function is defined as unspecified. We could have some configuration application to define what it does (mostly modifies xmodmap). Depending on the user it may be used as a normal key, a modifier key with fully custom combinations, or something like proposed above. The main point is to have an easily reachable block of unspecified key bindings that can be used without the fear of overmapping application-specific key bindings.

TBH, I'd be happy with pandora-like layout and a key like that

Left shift can be used for that (on both the Pandora and the Pyra), since it's more efficient to use L1 as shift anyway.

 

[EvilDragon]

Okay, the plastic inlay for one key is 3x7mm big.

What I don't want is hundreds of keyboard labels on one keyboard that 99% of the users won't understand.

It easily scares away new, interested customers.

I'd rather do additional layouts if demand is there (demand = at least 500 users who demand that one keyboard layout).

The maximum labels per key is 3: One master, one with shift, one with Meta.

 

[Saber]

Okay, the plastic inlay for one key is 3x7mm big.

What I don't want is hundreds of keyboard labels on one keyboard that 99% of the users won't understand.

It easily scares away new, interested customers.

I'd rather do additional layouts if demand is there (demand = at least 500 users who demand that one keyboard layout).

The maximum labels per key is 3: One master, one with shift, one with Meta.

I'll be updating my own layout in the "other" keyboard layout thread soon but I want to chime in by saying please don't call the defunct Fn key Meta. It may seem cool to do it, like calling the two new action buttons roman numeral I and II after the Master System PC Engine controller, but imagine a person who isn't so hip picking up a Pyra and being lost on which key needs to be pressed when they want the desired punctuation mark not prime on the keyboard. Sure they maybe could match the neon blue print color to the key, but Meta doesn't reveal itself by name as a modifier for punctuation usually in the field at least I've never seen it used that way. It's more like an Alt key really. It's only my opinion and you'll do whatever you want though but Meta is a poor matchup for the role it plays to how it's defined.   

 

[_wb_]

My proposal satisfies the "max 3 labels per key" constraint, except for the 3 punctuation keys (; : ' " and , < \ | and . > / ?), but since punctuations symbols are small, it should not be a problem to fit those.

The dead key diacritics should not take up much space either. In terms of style, I like how the diacritics are represented on this Finnish multilingual keyboard: grey circles below the diacritic symbols.

Or even better: replace the grey circle with a diamond in the color of the Meta labels (but a less intense version of it, like grey is for black).

With that in mind, I think it can be done without looking too scary.

Maybe two label layouts can be done to start with: one like my proposal (which covers basically everything Latin-based, although it is a bit scary), and one much more minimalistic (as proposed by comradekingu), suitable for English speakers and remappers who type blindly.

Specific layouts for specific languages are probably only feasible for the big languages: German, Japanese, French, maybe Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Russian. For the smaller languages like Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Hungarian, Czech, Polish, Slovak, Romanian, the Baltic ones, etc it is probably not going to be an option to have custom keymats, since it is highly unlikely that you will have enough customers from such relatively small language groups.

I like my proposal because it's very universal. As a Belgian, I have to be able to type both French and Dutch, which means I need acute, grave, umlaut (also ë and ï), circumflex, ç and œ. I don't want to sacrifice the P+2 and L+2 keys to remap them to something, because [{ ]} ;: Tab are useful for coding.

 

[_wb_]

Meta is a poor matchup for the role it plays to how it's defined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta_key

I like the name Meta. It's Greek, like Pyrrha. It's geeky. It's just as valid a modifier name as Fn, AltGr, Super or Hyper, but among those names, I like Meta best.

 

[slaeshjag]

Meta is hardly a key people have seen before, though.

 

[EvilDragon]

Meta is the internal name, I don't necessarily want it printed like that on the keyboard.

Fn is not a standard keyboard key, it's a hardware modifier (like on the Pandora), which can be used to increase the number of keys, but it's not as flexible.

Whether we use Meta or AltGr or Alt or whatever - we'll see.

I just want a standard keyboard chip with two modifier keys as max.

 

[Caine]

Another update of my proposal, using some of comradekingu's ideas:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dbb8a230ccd42182321fc7cea6e85dc6

Yes, it may look a bit scary, but we are geeks who can deal with that. Functionality above form, remember? It's not just scary for the sake of being scary. It's useful scary. Also remember that the Meta labels will have another color, so they won't distract that much from the primary keys.

The main advantage is that it has decent out of the box support for about all Latin-based alphabets, as well as room for remapping to the right of P, L and M if you want to do that.

Not bad at all. I would swap around a few keys though:

• Move enter to where your TAB key is (This puts enter in its "natural" location).
• Move shift to where your enter key is (This gives you a left-handed (L1) and right-handed shift key, making non-sticky combinations easier).
• Move TAB to where your shift key is (Puts it closer to its natural position).
• Meta-TAB should be caps-lock (key is missing).
• (And naturally ditch the greek characters ).

I'm not a very big fan of having to use Meta for \ and /, but I don't really see a way to obviously avoid that.
<edit>Hmmm... I don't think too many alternative options on the gaming keys should be used. I would move the '-', '_', '+' and '=' keys.</edit>

 

[comradekingu]

I absolutely despise Fn as a button, because it means without exception that someone tried to shoehorn things onto buttons where they don't belong.  The functional equivalent to escape on WiFi toggle... 

Reminds me to write escape and delete on backspace, because while functionally similar, it isn't evident to a new user.

Calling the hack button meta is one thing, I understand what it does then, having never seen or used meta. The Greek connection, while seemingly fitting, is not secondary, its a tertiary concern.  I like the ◆ and also marking all the non-standard F-row with ◆F1 - ◆F12  ◆ is visually less disturbing, and square is less scary a name. If you try to string together a command, square adds very little complexity to it. Humans are a lot better at deciphering shapes and colours.

Which brings us onto my critique of wbs layout, it is confusing. It is a P+2 L+1, when P+1 L+2 is the logical amount of +3 buttons to add.  Yes I am a geek and a nerd, but I am human first. If we start there, we arent excluding anyone. 

It looks like the Esperanto of keyboards. Common enough that someone might think they can almost pick it up, but so ugly that nobody really does.

Printing a € and £ on X and Yen on D is a profoundly bad idea, because it isn't standard mapping anywhere. Which means you have to hack in a letter that people to some part use, and if they do _already know how to_ which is _somewhere else_.

Compose button is also in a non-standard place. I don't know if Æ's make your devised addition to the layout work, but its a slippery slope into something that only makes sense for you. Ø as a cut-out your own letter, is the only(?) strike through diagonally-letter. Of which Scandinavians always use on +3 in the form of ÆØÅ or Ä Ö Å, some other letters which you have found a non-standard place for.

˝ "tilda"  is exactly the same.     What does one use ` for btw?   We don't have the one to the left of 1 (which has nothing useful, and pipe should be on 105-key "<>|" key) and the two to the right of 0, those i put those in the US/UK standard places and ? is the only one in a non-standard place at the "9-key"    = should be on 0, you are making the ABXY cluster look like a calculator.  - which is my biggest hack, implemented at ABXY +2  ↓, same as you have, is not ideal, but visual clutter is always wrong. For case of argument one can get by typing without -, but its better to not do it at all, if the alternative to - being hard to find and input means the whole keyboard experience is hard to find and input.

Typing all letters with one shoulder and two thumb-presses is nice for a linguistic researcher, but everyone else just want their single button-press back, the single press that they know about. No need to waste anything visual on it, just place the buttons in the right place and everyone is selecting their language away from being set.

Not wanting to sacrifice shifting your layout away from inputting accents and special regional letters to type code, is not someone everyone should suffer for.  That sounds to me like a special-interest keymat, one that i would be very willing to fund, just so i dont have to see it anywhere near a device that I use.

This is what has "dead key diacritics for all of the reasonably frequently used diacritics:"  the regional layouts that have languages that make use of them. No need to put that on anyone else.  If you speak more languages, switch layout when you input different ones. It is always more effective.

Czech, Finnish or Hungarian anything is not a good starting-point for something that makes sense for other people.  It is dvorak with pol pot on drums.

I have 8 buttons with 3 letters on them. You have 19, 3 of which have 4.   Yet you have skipped |  "pipe"

Additionally just about every language that tries to incorporate its regional layout looses ; : ' '' in doing so, which means they cant be used fully for typing, and that is the reason to ship anything other than reduced English to begin with.

 

[EvilDragon]

How do you press ALT-F4 on your keyboard? (or any other ALT-F-Combination?)

 

[comradekingu]

Alt+◆+F4

Unless one only implements F1-F4 on the very top row, where it can be the primary function of the key, that is the easiest you can get away with.

Because the F-row has to be placed on a row it doesn't traditionally belong, meaning shift+   and altGR+  anything on that row, already has its intended function with those keys.

For reference: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/98d2b40a419c44b935252f84fcd9ef2c

 

[_wb_]

Alt-F4 is L2+R2+R. Or START PYRA R (the non-shoulder versions of modifiers should be sticky by default for convenience).

Some replies to comradekingu:

- my pipe (|) is shift backslash, as is usual on QWERTY.

- the bar diacritic is not just for Ø, but also for e.g. Ł and Đ. Same with cedilla (used not just for Ç but also e.g. Ş) and tilde (used not just for ñ but also e.g. ã and õ).

- the backtick ` is used in some programming languages (e.g. shell scripts) and in LaTeX. It is not a very frequently used key, but it is needed anyway. That's why in my proposal it is located at the top (the unshifted tilde key). Don't confuse ', ", ` and ~ with their corresponding dead key diacritics by the way.

- I put + and - on Meta + action buttons, because they tend to be used in shortcuts (usually of the zooming kind), so they deserve a good spot which is also in the navigation region of PgUp/PgDn/Home/End. The _ and = are consequences of that.

- You're right about € £ ¥, we can safely omit those (they're available at Compose = {ELY} anyway).

- The only "suffering" in my layout is visual. If you don't need diacritics, it is identical to your proposal.