After a discussion with ED, it is time for the fan favourite, the vote. Before you cast a vote, please read the writeup presented: Latest layouts: Updated 11 august 2014 Saber WB2perkey WBlessclutter Comradekingu Proposed layout (see above for updated layouts): http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/cc6bbd4e51cf9e5c2631568cee8a2663 The keys marked in red below are present in ANSI, ISO and JIS classes of keyboards. The white keys are typing keys. The pandora didnt have enough keys, and while the pyra does, isnt currently utilizing this to make it a full keyboard. Having keys there makes the keyboard international, huge win, more sales. Spoiler I dont know what the plan is for the layout, but it seems incoherent, and also it doesnt make sense to slalom type on a reduced english layout. PCB LAYOUT Proposal. Reduced english layout. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e7df9420cdabea7b8f3007cb848a7672 Good: It has tab in the most obvious position Bad: Fails as a keyboard for most people in the world, about half the customerbase, not full keyboard, but reduced english. Wastes a key by having dual shift. (also has L sh on the right and R sh on the left for some reason...) Wastes a key by incorporating a double space that isnt dead center. fixed. Seems to have divided F-row since power-control buttons are marked F1-F4 While we know about the international issue from the pandora. All this needs to be tested, we are also trying to figure out good layouts, which is a semi-seperate issue. Disregard the F-row and symbols for the topic at hand. Separating space to get an extra button seems to already be agreeable. (The nubs now can both click, and there are 4 shoulders.) Almost full layout proposal http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/86900c4a202a87fd6b887b13b8487509 Good: 3 keys for international roams many users. 2/3 keys can be totally omitted for typing with the exception of ;:'" Bad: 2/4 isnt easy to remap Having to map enter somewhere else is an ugly hack. Enter is in a place where many layouts have their compose key to do Â and stuff like that, doing without it, means you have do do that elsewhere, which means more ugly hacks. ;:'" cant be omitted from typing when remapping The F-row is seperated Another almost full layout proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/07c793fdec592dcc7022cb1e50a80f87 Good: Only 2 prints per key. Bad: No super or AltGr VERY CLOSE TO FULL LAYOUT proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5a72c0b1508cc5a09fb3e9c57f85f2fa FULL LAYOUT proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/edb1df73659f8dd56df65b0ca590cc38 Good: 4 keys for international users roam very very nearly all, and creates less trouble, since | key is often dedicated compose. 3/4 keys can be totally omitted for typing (fixed) 4/4 of the needed buttons can freely change to input what a full keyboard is to people. , and . is next to enter and space, and all handled by the right hand on the right side of the keyboard, instead of shifting focus and diverting motorical input. Bad: tab is a secondary of left. (fixed) But tab is still not in the most obvious position. 1/4 ;:'" cant be omitted from typing when remapping (fixed) http://oi60.tinypic.com/16kxrmx.jpg http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3273ade9cf3eb68d2f974ff4bf60d382 http://oi62.tinypic.com/2r60kgm.jpg http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fbfbad3f00488d0205f63eccbac879de http://oi60.tinypic.com/2yvm809.jpg http://oi58.tinypic.com/157jgoz.jpg older versions Having the 4 standard buttons is crucially important to something like half the market for the pyra: Spoiler Russians: 143 millions Germans: 80 millions (homeland of pyra production, and currently very large userbase of pandora) Turks: 76 millions French: 66 millions Italians: 59 millions Espanians: 46 millions Ukrainians: 45 millions Poles: 38 millions Arabians: many millions Danes: 5 million Swedes: 9 million Finns: 5 millions Norwegians: 5 million And a many others, including south-america (spanish and portugese) and asia, you get the idea. This spreads out historically to, http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/membermap/ which may be a bit shifted towards UK users since that was where craig sold pandoras from, and also much lighter on non-anglo users, since those are the ones who suffer the most from not having the standard amount of keys. Without two keys to the right of L and two keys to the right of P, it means a keyboard is useless for anything other than typing english. (Which is 400 million users.) This was a huge problem on the pandora, and if there is the same two keys wide spacebar on the pyra, it means INTL-layout doesnt work Pull out the ÜÖÄ keys on a regular (german example), or what those correspond to on another keyboard, and your layout is reduced to typing shift+^ * every time you want to use a key that is in one of those places. Most languages do not work without those keys, which is the most basic flaw a keyboard can have. Most importantly, people dont buy it for that reason. Its not a fixed rule, but fail at typewriter functionality and you will annoy people greatly. The current keymat and case-design has a 2-width space. As we all know keys on the layout are limited, and for those of you that have tried to make functional layouts, this is all the more an issue with each key less there is to work with. Spoiler Full desktop keyboards are 105-key, of which we cannot incorporate all, and many of which make little sense in todays world. They were added to the typewriter with varying levels of consideration, none of which was for mobile use, and most of it happened before I was born. That was the 80s, computer capability and use has changed _a lot_ since then. They keyboard is though largely unchanged. The first mobile keyboards that were used to great extent were the T9s that we know from dumbphones and limited space smartphones, a hack if anything, but it garnered use by little and small for SMS. Then there were some phones with full typewriter-layout, e61, n900 and others and so on, before the touchscreen came to be the ruler of all. The reasons touchscreen beating keyboard for mobile isn't because its better to use, but they are many: its more costly to produce a keyboard The labels differ the amount of keys on them differ so you have to have keymats that are regional. Also you want a big screen, and a bigger keyboard is contrary to that. This means only phones for US-layout, which relates to ANSI keyboard layout more than ISO is the only thing you can get. Phones for different markets have to be different, so that means the top end, which people buy a lot of, is almost exclusively touchscreen only now. The exception being blackberry - passport Which really throws all balls in the air and lands back where we started, at the typewriter, which has been a tend the last years. But what makes it a US-layout? Yes they have the same A-Z in largely the same places as the rest of us, but they are missing the Ö Ä Ü'keys, or ÆØÅ or whatever your desktop keyboard has on the buttons close to enter. From now on called INTL-keys. You can not type basic English phonetically without for example Ø, and the amount of letters in the English alphabet has varied with time, so thats also arbitrary, but i digress. For (almost) everyone else, those letters are crucial. The T9 shifted space around willy nilly, and that worked. Typing INTL-keys meant tapping 4 or 5 times instead of 3, which wasnt much worse. On a regular keyboard the difference to typing shift+^ and then for example O, is huge compared to the ease of having the other letters represented by their own keys. Space can change position, it can even be a single key, but INTL-keys should not move, they are as essential to the people that use them, as the rest of the letters are. Space has traditionally been a bar-type key. I liken this to the enter, which has also been a wide key. The reason why this is, is because on a desktop keyboard it makes it makes space available to both thumbs, and enter reachable with big and small hands, since your hands are otherwise covering the letters. We carry these conventions with us onto mobile, just like modern desktop keyboards carry a lot of baggage. The enter has changed to be a single-width key, and that is fine, because it is expected on the right hand side, and with only thumbs, it is easy enough to reach. You have the same motorical precision there as you have for the other keys, (more-so with most people being right handed) Space has been cut down to two spaces, which makes some sense if you put it dead center, equidistant from both thumbs. Yes, the T9 placing of space was fully weird, and while it worked, most people who bought nokia, kept buying nokia, and sony-ericsson, which had it in a different place, had its following. Chargers were different for all, crazy times. Placing the spacebar anywhere but dead centre low down, is done because one lacks (horizontal) rows on the keyboard. When that is done, it is sometimes single-space. And it does happen with typewriter-layout keyboards too. 1 2 I understand the recognizability of a spacebar, but if you end up having to look for return and backspace, you cant even do the most basic typing without looking for keys anyways. This is the advantage. It can be lessened by printing |___| on the key, just like enter is ←| (similar anyhow) And back to the topic, even though one extra button doesn't make for +3 or 4 INTL buttons, it does make incorporating them just feasible, any less and you run into problems. (Same with dvorak curiously.) Full keyboard layout is much much better for INTL-language people, and it doesn't exclude the english (and some others) users. Dvorak is an example of a nice possibility that is a side benefit of separated space. If you wondered why the US-keyboard laptops/phones arent popular in Europe, its less to do with keylabels, and more to do with the amount of buttons. Which means even if you are from the US, the pyra will sell more devices to more people if it has separated spacebar. That is 100% an exclusion argument, there is no getting around it for INTL-users. Here is the current full-keyboard-proposal for the pyra. It also takes more into account convention of placement of other chars according to ANSI and ISO layout convention. Then there is the convention, which i hope everone understands better now, and we can vote about it. Pros for seperate: INTL-layout, more buttons, test more thing layouts. Also possibility for more advanced layouts dvorak, colemak? Neo layout used by Elw3 and Fahrstuhl Pros for non-seperate: Recognizability of space as a bar key Make a case with two buttons where there is now a spacebar, along with either a keymat that fits, (or hack up some to make it fit). (The PCB already has separate pads, so it registers as two separate buttons to the OS) Then we can try ALL the layouts, because there are many different ideas and paradigms. Which we can discuss in the thread. Edit: You do not need to read this whole thread, these are the posts that are informational: ED: Space doesnt need to be a bar key Max prints per letter 3, each key 7x3, no noise Visual example of key imprint (legend) layout Fn isnt Meta, and the name isnt decided (puzzle suggested) No funny foreign stuff on the keyboard WB: Shoulderbuttons are more effective It is since agreed that it makes sense to not remove shift from the keyboard, but to include it as a shoulder. Visual example of many +1+1 +1+2 and +2+2 layouts Statistical example of why omitting extra keys make no sense Frequency of keys used in english Comradekingu: Research on how meta+backspace can be escape and altGR+backspace can be delete layout of KISS power-toggles Visual example of why comma space and dot enter shift are combos that should be easily accesible without slalom-typing Why adding a shift on the left makes no sense Why altGr is altGr and meta+ will never replace it when there is no +QWERTY We meed to sort out the colour of the letters on the keymat.