Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key

[comradekingu]

Thats why its 4 on what i proposed, which is the same 4 that is the standard on ISO, ANSI and JIS. The green ones, on every class of keyboard there is.

Also the Czech one, which is a ISO layout with reduced return key and longer right shift. For them it seems to be 3 letters that are crucial, same as the germans.

The keys that are important enough to have dedicated, where some standard organisations have put their vovels, is same area you seem to think its ok to do without...

I cannot fathom why, but at-least care enough to realize others do, and they will opt out of buying a device based on such reasoning.

Edit:

I dont know that my layout fits everyone under the sun, but i do know it covers the other half of what is currently the userbase for the pandora.

Also, if it is too few keys, thats what it is, there arent more keys to work with, 64 makes it usable for a great majority of western people. 63 doesnt.

Having the basic amount of keys, in the right places, is what matters.

 

[bzar]

I'm just popping by to reiterate my preference for an extra modifier key. I don't actually want several layouts because it makes application-specific default key bindings a hassle. I've discussed this problem in other threads so I'm not repeating myself here. An added modifier with no expected functionality maybe combined with some readymade layouts for it to accommodate some languages is in my special character needing opinion a better overall solution. Say the extra modifier is R2 and shift is L1. Pressing L1+R2+a to produce Ä sounds like something I'd rather live with than the hassle of applications not being compatible with my layout and thus needing to switch between them.

 

[_wb_]

I'm just popping by to reiterate my preference for an extra modifier key. I don't actually want several layouts because it makes application-specific default key bindings a hassle. I've discussed this problem in other threads so I'm not repeating myself here. An added modifier with no expected functionality maybe combined with some readymade layouts for it to accommodate some languages is in my special character needing opinion a better overall solution. Say the extra modifier is R2 and shift is L1. Pressing L1+R2+a to produce Ä sounds like something I'd rather live with than the hassle of applications not being compatible with my layout and thus needing to switch between them.

You mean in addition to Fn/Meta?

I think Shift, Alt, Ctrl, Meta should be enough (mapped to the four shoulder buttons). This would be a good default layout that covers all extended latin letters in two keypresses: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/46d8f52be8fefc483ddd296c0945c2ed

(obviously you can remap some of those Meta keys to better suit your particular language)

 

[comradekingu]

That layout does cover most of the customer-bases basic language input keys in 1-keypress. Also it has 2 extra buttons on the ASDF row, which the pyra cannot have. Its 11 on the ASDF

You do need shift, but not two, you dont need caps lock, so that fixes that.You do need shift, but not two, you dont need caps lock, so that fixes some of the issues

Currently failing 1. 2. and 5

Having [  A @]  horisontally on the keys is a good idea.

Mapping basic typing functions/modifiers/function keys to shoulderbuttons is not good because 1. you end up having to duplicate those buttons on the keyboard 2. it is not evident and could be disasterous

Firstpost updated with image pyra keyboard with the right amount of keys, (and typewriter keys in the right places.)

 

[elw3]

It is not only about "special characters". The line between capslock and enter contains this letters on my keyboard: uiaeosnrtdy, so eleven keys in total. The English layout has 9 in that row. 

Mapping my layout at this keyboard is simple impossible. So i very well see camradekingu's point. Using the English layout as a base will limit it to that as it is the shortest of all. 

 

[bzar]

I'm just popping by to reiterate my preference for an extra modifier key. I don't actually want several layouts because it makes application-specific default key bindings a hassle. I've discussed this problem in other threads so I'm not repeating myself here. An added modifier with no expected functionality maybe combined with some readymade layouts for it to accommodate some languages is in my special character needing opinion a better overall solution. Say the extra modifier is R2 and shift is L1. Pressing L1+R2+a to produce Ä sounds like something I'd rather live with than the hassle of applications not being compatible with my layout and thus needing to switch between them.

You mean in addition to Fn/Meta?

I think Shift, Alt, Ctrl, Meta should be enough (mapped to the four shoulder buttons). This would be a good default layout that covers all extended latin letters in two keypresses: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/46d8f52be8fefc483ddd296c0945c2ed

(obviously you can remap some of those Meta keys to better suit your particular language)

They would be if applications didn't routinely map such existing modifier keys to UI and game actions. I'd prefer the region-specific characters wouldn't be mapped over anything, but would exist in undefined key combinations. The extra modifier would be specified as "Used to produce user-defined characters or functions. Do not directly map this key to anything or expect it to work in any specific way."

EDIT: To give the concept a name, let's call it the USER key or something. A key reserved for the user not to be tampered with by devs

 

[_wb_]

Mapping basic typing functions/modifiers/function keys to shoulderbuttons is not good because 1. you end up having to duplicate those buttons on the keyboard 2. it is not evident and could be disasterous

Shoulder button modifier keys are the most efficient modifier keys on a handheld. Since modifier keys are typically used in conjunction with other keys (that is what their intended use is), it makes a lot of sense to be able to chord them without occupying a precious thumb.

1. Sure, you have to duplicate them on the keyboard, but anything on the shoulder buttons has to be duplicated on the keyboard anyway, so that's not a waste. Modifier keys typically come in pairs so you can duplicate them while still being able to distinguish them.

2a. Not evident: that depends, we could put a label/engraving on the shoulder buttons. It can be just as evident as any other key.

2b. Could be disasterous: how?

 

[comradekingu]

The new L/R buttons have seen very little testing, none by people the pyra is sold to over the internets. but do provide such a layout. I dont know if its an idea that can be sold to people or one that works, but very interesting. I do want to give it a go.

If that is efficient, and it is if it works, why lessen that point by putting them on the keyboard? Accidents do happen, which is a contrary point, like holding ctrl and pressing q or Ctrl+alt+backspace  alt and F4  you get the idea.

If ctrl alt or even space (whitespace in code) is not evidently marked its a disaster waiting to happen, if they are also on the keyboard, i dont expect them to also be somewhere else. For me it has to be only on the keyboard or only on shoulders.

And while effective, its a very steep and potentially disasterous learning curve, am i holding ctrl, or is it alt? Because im looking at the keyboard, or the shoulders, not both.

With having ctrl alt space enter on both keyboard and and shoulders I see a transition effect possible, which is a good point. Then again learning it wrong the first time is how to establish a bad habit.

Neo/Dvorak/colemak are all better ideas than QWERTY/AZERTY and similar, but if you want to be rational about selling units, QWERTY is it

At least something to keep in mind for alternative mapping for heavy users like we are.

 

[TrashyMG]

Well, we could make the space key into a one-width key, so we gain one more key.


It's not possible adding anymore keys somewhere else.

I wouldn't mind sacrificing the size of the space bar if it would accommodate a more international user base, I think this would have appeal to many. I'm also saying this as someone that only knows English too.

 

[comradekingu]

The americans understand money, and more units sold is cheaper units for all. Yipee.  *shoots revolvers in the air

 

[rygD]

I wouldn't mind sacrificing the size of the space bar if it would accommodate a more international user base, I think this would have appeal to many. I'm also saying this as someone that only knows English too.

This why I voted the way I did as well.

Neo/Dvorak/colemak are all better ideas than QWERTY/AZERTY and similar, but if you want to be rational about selling units, QWERTY is it

I would rather learn something completely new than something that is partially QWERTY with the things I am looking for in all the wrong places, as in some of the suggestions.  Regardless, I will adapt to whatever layout we get.

It seems a bit of a waste to have dedicated keys that will not be used by all or most of the users, as in some of the proposed layouts.

What keyboard layout is used by most people reading this thread (or does this not matter)?

 

[bzar]

It seems a bit of a waste to have dedicated keys that will not be used by all or most of the users, as in some of the proposed layouts.

What keyboard layout is used by most people reading this thread (or does this not matter)?

If you're referring to my USER key proposal, the key can be used for anything the user desires. Not just to produce characters. Quicklaunch? Text macros? It's up to the user to decide what to do with it. So it wouldn't be wasted on people who don't use it for special characters, they'd just have more button combinations for other uses
After considering a while, putting USER on a trigger is a bad idea. it'd just be another pre-assigned button being overwritten in many applications. So it should be a keyboard key that no application knows about

I'll drop this line of conversation if no one cares about the idea. Just wanted it out there.

 

[_wb_]

I do like the 'big' space bar, even if it sacrifices a potential key. I'm not sure if I want the big space key for functional reasons (ergonomics, easy to find) or for purely æsthetical reasons, but a space bar that is just like all the other keys just seems wrong to me.

Of course more keys are always nice, but compared to the Pandora, we already have two more keys in the main keyboard block, two more keys in the action button block, four more keys above the nubs, and two extra shoulder buttons. So we already have 10 extra keys in total. Is that not enough?

And yes, the location of these extra keys does not correspond to where the extra keys are on full-size keyboard (to the right of UIOP and HJKL), but I don't think that is very important. You'll have to re-train your muscle memory anyway -- existing typing skills from ten finger typing on a full keyboard simply don't translate to a handheld at all.

I wouldn't be terribly upset if the space bar would be reduced to a small key, but it's still not an ideal situation if you ask me. If anything has to change, I'd rather squeeze in a full extra column of keys, making all keys smaller and more square.

 

[Grench]

The americans understand money, and more units sold is cheaper units for all. Yipee.  *shoots revolvers in the air

You clearly do not understand Americans or money.

More units sold is more profit. More profit is more capital. More capital is the foundation of a future product.

If the device sells to production capacity at $700, there is no reason to discount it just because more were sold. If anything, it is a reason to -increase- prices.

Capitalism market segmentation. Making sure those who are willing to pay more do so.

 

[pndrsky]

Without two keys to the right of L and two keys to the right of P, it means a keyboard is useless for anything other than typing english. This was a huge problem on the pandora...

Yes. Pandora's keyboard is terrible, for example, for russian input because there are just not enough keys (two to the right of P, two to the right of L, two to the right of M, and also tilda key in any location are all used for letters - and Pandora doesn't play well there). There are additional troubles such as center of keyboard is in wrong place and there are no tactile markers on F/J to help with it. I have no idea if other languages need the 3rd key to the right of M; russian layout puts dot and comma there.

Many other mobile devices and small keyboards suffer from such problems as well. Example of good small layout that doesn't have such problems, at least for russian: http://www.elitekeyboards.com/proddata/images/th/pdkb400w_full1000_th0x0.jpg (60 keys, btw!) - you can't cut much more except for duplicate Alts (but again they are commonly used as two different keys for internationalization purposes as well, like one being layout switch shortcut, or AltGr), Mod4s and Shifts.

Why not put < > keys in their usual position to the right of M? If Pandora has done that, it would be MUCH better in keyboarding regard. Spacebar's position is much more irrelevant in my opinion, unless it's in some really weird place. One should have as normal layout as possible, with all internationalization and other stuff around, otherwise it's just asking for trouble.

The only decent layout for russian input I can think of with the current PCB pictures would be something like that:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Backspace

q w e r t y u i o p [ ]

a s d f g h j k l ; '

(Fn/Space/Enter) z x c v b n m < > (Fn/Space/Enter) (Fn/Space/Enter)

Already much better than the Pandora who doesn't have that many keys there at all, though.

All I want to is to have the greatest UMPC ever (as I wanted with Pandora), but one of the most important qualities can easily be spoilt due to Fn being in a weird unremappable place or two-width Spacebar taking place of ">". Oh, and also keymat printing being shifted one column for everything...

 

[comradekingu]

You would get exactly what you are asking for, but instead of  [ ] it will just be a star on those keys. When you switch to russian, you get cyrillics input on the latin keys you are used to having them on. Enter is enter, backspace is backspace and so on.
 
I dont understand what <> does on a russian layout keyboard. I placed the < > symbols quite central because thats easy for coding. Usually on 105-key they are on the bottom left side
However you have to type shift+space or shift+enter to get them, they are not direct keys.
 
 

--- So we already have 10 extra keys in total. Is that not enough?

No amount of keys added to a broken layout is "enough" if you don't implement qwerty +2 and asdf +2

And yes, the location of these extra keys does not correspond to where the extra keys are on full-size keyboard (to the right of UIOP and HJKL),

They do on the layout in firstpost, which i have updated.

Spoiler

{backcolor:"#444444"},

[{c:"#333333",t:"#ffffff",w:2,h:0.5,w2:1,h2:1},"(L1)\n\n\n\n\n\n\nalt [PREV]",{x:8,w:2,h:0.5},"\n\n(R1)\n\n\n\n[NEXT] altgr"],
[{y:-0.5,w:2,h:0.5},"(L2)\n\n\n\n\n\n\nctrl [sTOP]",{x:8,w:2,h:0.5},"\n\n(R2)\n\n\n\n[PLAY] ◆"],
[{y:-0.5,x:2,c:"#000000"},"Wifi","\n\n3G",{x:1,a:7,w:2},"POWER",{x:1,a:4},"BT","\n\nHDMI"],
[{y:0.25,x:9,a:7,f:9,w:0.8,h:0.8},"\n\n\n\n☀▲"],
[{y:-0.9499999999999993,x:5.25,a:5,f:5,w:1.5,h:0.8},"\n\n\n\nSTART\n\n⎇"],
[{y:-0.8000000000000007,x:1,f:3},"\nPgUp\n\n\n\n\n⬆"],
[{y:-0.9499999999999993,x:10,f:9},"\n\n\n\nscrollup"],
[{y:-0.5500000000000007,x:3.25,f:3,w:1.75,h:1.75},"\n\n\n\n\n\nO",{x:2,w:1.75,h:1.75},"\n\n\n\n\n\nO"],
[{y:-0.5},"\n↹\n\n\n\n\n⬅",{x:1},"\nins\n\n\n\n\n➡"],
[{y:-0.9499999999999993,x:5.25,f:5,w:1.5,h:0.8},"\n\n\n\nSELECT\n\n⎄",{x:2.25,f:9},"\n\n\n\n←alttab",{x:1},"\n\n\n\nalttab →"],
[{y:-0.05000000000000071,x:1,f:3},"\nPgDn\n\n\n\n\n⬇"],
[{y:-0.9499999999999993,x:5.25,f:5,w:1.5,h:0.8},"\n\n\n\nMENU\n\nctrl",{x:3.25,f:9},"\n\n\n\nscrolldn"],
[{y:-0.5,x:9,a:7,w:0.8,h:0.8},"\n\n\n\n☀▼"],
[{y:-0.05000000000000071,x:0.5,a:5,f:3},"!\n\n\n\n\n\n1","\"\n\n\n\n\n\n2","#\n\n\n\n\n\n3","$\n\n\n\n\n\n4","%\n\n\n\n\n\n5","^\n\n\n\n\n\n6","&\n\n\n\n\n\n7","*\n\n\n\n\n\n8","(\n\n\n\n\n\n9",")\n\n\n\n\n\n0","⌦\n\n\n\n\n\n⟵"],
[{c:"#ffffff",t:"#111111"},"F1\n\n\n\n\n\nQ","F2\n\n\n\n\n\nW","F3\n\n\n\n\n\nE","F4\n\n\n\n\n\nR","F5\n\n\n\n\n\nT","F6\n\n\n\n\n\nY","F7\n\n\n\n\n\nU","F8\n\n\n\n\n\nI","F9\n\n\n\n\n\nO","F10\n\n\n\n\n\nP","F11\n\n\n\n\n\n☆","F12\n\n\n\n\n\n☆"],
[{x:0.5},"\n@\n\n\n\n\nA","\n+\n\n\n\n\nS","\n-\n\n\n\n\nD","\n√\n\n\n\n\nF","\n=\n\n\n\n\nG","\n{\n\n\n\n\nH","\n}\n\n\n\n\nJ","\n~\n\n\n\n\nK","\n`\n\n\n\n\nL","\n´\n\n\n\n\n☆","\n?\n\n\n\n\n☆"],
[{c:"#000000",t:"#ffffff"},"\n\n\n\n\n\n⇧",{c:"#ffffff",t:"#111111"},"\n/\n\n\n\n\nZ","\n|\n\n\n\n\nX","\n\\\n\n\n\n\nC","\n_\n\n\n\n\nV","\n[\n\n\n\n\nB","\n]\n\n\n\n\nN","\nµ\n\n\n\n\nM","\n;\n\n\n\n\n,","\n:\n\n\n\n\n.","\n<\n\n\n\n\n'--------'",{c:"#000000",t:"#ffffff"},"\n>\n\n\n\n\n↵"]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

but I don't think that is very important.

This is the part where you are 100% wrong.

You'll have to re-train your muscle memory anyway -- existing typing skills from ten finger typing on a full keyboard simply don't translate to a handheld at all.

There is a difference between 10 finger typing skills and 2 thumbs, sure. There is no difference between qwerty and qwerty.
 

I wouldn't be terribly upset if the space bar would be reduced to a small key, but it's still not an ideal situation if you ask me. If anything has to change, I'd rather squeeze in a full extra column of keys, making all keys smaller and more square.

No more keys.

 

[pndrsky]

I dont understand what <> does on a russian layout keyboard.

Two keys to the right of each P, L, M are filled with letters: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/KB_Russian.svg. When those are in a random place (like < > in the left edge on Pandora), it's like if some latin keys in QWERTY were shuffled around.

No amount of keys added to a broken layout is "enough" if you don't implement qwerty +2 and asdf +2

So also zxcv +2. Maybe for other languages +3, no idea but it could have happen.

There is a difference between 10 finger typing skills and 2 thumbs, sure. There is no difference between qwerty and qwerty.

Agree. Pandora's default Shift+Digit combinations are weird as well (only reason I can see for this is key shortage, which should be solved in the other way).

 

[pndrsky]

You would get exactly what you are asking for, but instead of  [ ] it will just be a star on those keys.

Yes, this looks good. What are points against actually making them [ ] etc with usual shift levels (and all the related symbols are important for coding if you take this into consideration), like on usual keyboard? What will the star mean?

 

[DAP]

There is no such thing as a standard keymap, only a standard qualified with "for country x".

I am in favor of have an array of completely remapable keys with no "special" keys that can't be re-mapped.

I think ED should provide a few common keymap keymats pre-installed, and sell keymats & keycaps (more keycaps than keys to support the various languages) with a tube of glue so those of us who use oddball keymaps (dvorak) can roll our own.

If that double wide space key remains, all of this is impossible, and pyra is much less usefull to me.

It's not as important to me, but I could live with keys 10% smaller to allow for an aditional column of keys to support more international keymaps.

 

[_wb_]

Here is my proposal for a single-width space bar layout with dedicated keys for [ ] ; , . in their normal places.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/208d4e2ecf3461a7ff83ef1684b67cf3

Features:

- sticky modifier keys on the keyboard itself, but power users would use the shoulder buttons as modifiers.

- most of the Meta (Fn) keys on the ASD and ZXC row are dead key diacritics that cover about all extended Latin symbols

- two extra action buttons are Insert and Delete, with meta symbols + and -

- intentionally no meta symbol on some keys (L, and the whitespace and modifier keys) so you can map something there yourself

- since no application should be binding actions to dead keys, you can also safely remap the dead key diacritics

I'm actually starting to like this layout more than my original double-width space bar proposal. The only thing I don't like is the misalignment of the number row (it is shifted one position to the right).