Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key

I want to test more layouts (for example INTL-layout) which require space to be single-width?

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When you type on a desk, you can reach half the keyboard that the shift is on, with the hand that is typing shift...

Let me break it down:

When you have shift on the right side, which is the only side enter and , . can also be on, even on a reduced English layout, your left hand is free to start a sentence with ENTC, which are the most used english starters.

They are all on the left. Not only is enter dot and comma on the right the standard, it makes sense. We also imply for the most part, the user is right handed, and has the best command of his right thumb.

Therefore it makes sense to fully end a sentence with your right, and then be free on the left to start a sentence with your left. But it works out even if the sentence begins on the right. Here is why:

Also adding a shift to the left means you get a little better access to starting sentences with letters that are on the right, like  MLK or a J, because thats where your right hand is, however, to achieve this, you must

  • move focal attention (you ended the sentence on your right, because that's where the enter was)
  • shift motoric attention (you ended with your right hand)
  • drift position of left hand out of center (because on letter two, your left hand is still at left shift, qwerty having a and e on the left doesnt make this better)

To improve efficiency, add a shift on the shoulder, that way you are free after typing enter, to move your right thumb inwards _and_ your left is unencumbered.

The reason why left shift made a little sense, is therefore the same reason shoulder-shift is a lot better. Even for the short term picture of just being able to start a sentence with a letter on the right.

Longer term with left shift the left hand doesn't start at a defect when typing letter two in the sentence, after the capitalized one. To start your sentence with the letter on the right, your left hand had to be on left shift as your right was typing for example O. Which means you are still tied up, even if having two shifts.

So for less than half the time, leftshift as opposed to only right, has the advantage of tying up your left hand at either right side, or full left. Marginal. Starting a sentence with an A is the exception here, because its a case where 10-finger logic can be applied, in that you are able to reach the a with the same 'hand' you typed shift with. It is however a little hack, in what could be a better system, and also one where the beginner starts out not having to learn tricks.

Something it appears someone has forgotten, even with the most efficiency at both, is that its a lot easier for a beginner to fully end a sentence with the right every time, and then reach over with the left hand to the right side. Same muscle memory, same logic every time.

You can learn to start this motion as your right is busy with dot-enter-shift to take away the downtime left hand has in going to the right hand side. Which is the same as learning to seek shift with the left, only much easier.

Because the user knows where the letters are, the user doesnt magically pick up which shift is easier to use for which side. Keep it simple, dont learn habits that only serve as a workaround of making a system usable. And please, dont excuse a bad system with the possibility of learning caveats, hacks and workarounds.  If it can be explained easily, it is simple, and it works.

So to sum it up, if you get more advanced than right shift only, shoulder-shift is it every time.

The only thing left to argue is, 'but i shift attention after typing enter to type dot on the other side and/or also do the same for dot comma. It wouldn't make much of a difference'

Answer: The basis of your argument is a fundamentally broken layout, for fundamental reasons of why a working keyboard is effective.

Edit: Ok, to make an example, pretend tab is dot, and FN is shift on your pandora. A little triangle  dot-enter-shift.

Even a beginner can type that, _and_ begin their sentence, (even if it starts on the right,) faster than a seasoned pandora-pro can slalom back and forth.
 
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I'm afraid I don't quite follow.


I should point out that my way of typing is not recommended even by me. My fingers have learned all sorts of convolutions over the years so that more of the time I'm typing one letter with my left hand then one with my right, and my right hand often drifts over to the left hand side of the keyboard and vice versa to achieve this. It's not a typing style I could teach, pure muscle memory.


Also, as far as I can tell, nobody's arguing against a shift on a shoulder button. That way which side of the keyboard the capital letter is on is largely irrelevant, unless the shoulder buttons aren't accessible as you've got it on a desk. It didn't strike me as difficult, in such circumstances to hit the left shift key with your left thumb while hitting S with your right thumb on such a small keyboard, though perhaps my biases are showing.
 
When you have a desk, the whole keyboard is accessible with typing shift on one hand. You dont get the benefits of dual shift, even when desktop typing. Two shifts on a two-thumb keyboard never makes sense.

Edit: added all informative posts as a summary to firstpost.
 
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comradekingu said:
When you have a desk, the whole keyboard is accessible with typing shift on one hand. You dont get the benefits of dual shift, even when desktop typing. Two shifts on a two-thumb keyboard never makes sense.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure Levi understands that part of it comradekingu. It was an intelligently complex, appreciated explanation as always.

BTW, I'll be adding one hopefully last layout tomorrow my usual morning time. B) :)
 
If you are sitting at your desk, why aren’t you using your desktop computer? There is no point in designing the Pyra for desktop use. If you want that, plug in a desktop keyboard, or better yet use your desktop computer. The Pyra needs to be designed to work hand held using your thumbs.
 
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Shuffled the bottom right part around a bit:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/70fe893061115529acd9f8713699112b

Now Enter is next to space. I think that is a better location -- easier to find, better in (period)-(enter) combinations. It makes sense: when you finish a sentence with ".", you either continue with space or with enter.

Askarus said:
It simply doesn't make sense to build a keyboard based on the thought that people might want to remap keys.

Make one English layout and that as good as possible.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I'm trying to do. Remapping is merely something I keep in mind, not something that is essential to the design. My proposed layout intends to be perfect for English and for coding/shell stuff. If you want to use it efficiently for other languages, you can remap the P+2 and L+2 keys, which takes away some important keys for coding/shell stuff, but for natural language it is OK.

There is no compromise here: it is both good for English and coding/shell interaction, and good for remapping.

DAP said:
If you are sitting at your desk, why aren’t you using your desktop computer? There is no point in designing the Pyra for desktop use. If you want that, plug in a desktop keyboard, or better yet use your desktop computer. The Pyra needs to be designed to work hand held using your thumbs.
Click to expand...
I agree. The layout should be optimized for handheld use. However, I think it should still be possible (albeit uncomfortably and less efficiently) to use it on a desk, i.e. without shoulder buttons. All modifier keys should be available without shoulder buttons. At least by default. E.g. when it is attached to lots of stuff through all those ports at the back, you may want to put it on a desk instead of using it as a handheld.
Of course you can remap the redundant keyboard modifier keys. Maybe I would map my keyboard Shift to an AltGr key, and my keyboard Meta to a more convenient Compose or Super key. I don't know yet.
 
comradekingu said:
Made a layout on Wbs supernice template

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/663a6bbc16579adb9b0b7d1f0a86643a
Click to expand...
How does | on Shift work? Meta+Shift gives | ? But then you cannot type Shift+F1.


You are still ignoring my earlier comments about your 3 Alt keys, the confusing mix between Meta and AltGr, and the missing Ctrl shoulder button. In my opinion, this is an essential problem in your proposal and it needs to be fixed first.

Why do you have space between M and comma ? You seem to assume that periods are always followed by Enter, but most of the time, people do not start a new paragraph. In that case, the period is followed by a space. Changing the standard M , . sequence just to optimize the "comma space" and "period enter" combos does more harm than good in my opinion. E.g. it brings space dangerously close to the middle, where it would be better to be wider. Also Russian remappers need the M+2 keys (not to mention AZERTY).

A dedicated key for / (and \ I suppose) would be more useful than a dedicated key for > and < (at least in my opinion). In your notation, a \ / | key at the L+1 position.
 
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DAP said:
If you are sitting at your desk, why aren’t you using your desktop computer? There is no point in designing the Pyra for desktop use. If you want that, plug in a desktop keyboard, or better yet use your desktop computer. The Pyra needs to be designed to work hand held using your thumbs.
Click to expand...
As someone who uses my Pandora and similar devices on a table/desk, I agree with most of what you are saying.  Thumb typing with the device held in hand should be the priority.  The thing I don't agree with is assuming that anytime someone is using a Pyra (or Pandora) on a table or desk they are at home or the office, sitting in front of a computer.  What if you are at a coffee shop, or in a class or meeting?  What if you are writing down directions or a list of stuff to pick up while replying to text message/email, or trying to type up something you have written down, while also jotting down changes or ideas in your notes (I am one of those people that always has something to write on and with when I leave home)?  Putting down the notebook and picking up the device to type a short sentence, then putting down the device and picking up the book to flip through the pages gets old quick, so it is easier just to flip the notebook over, type on the table or desk, then go back to flipping through the pages.

Again, I feel it is far more important to get thumb typing right than to consider those who desk type.
 
AltGr+shift= |

I did answer a bit earlier, but:

The only thing i use meta for is the F-row. And the only reason why is i dont want to lose  AltGr+QWERTY

Should typing Fkeys be Shift+meta+QWERTY ?

Also i dont know what happens when if i swap ctrl/select for meta/select.

In my head () has something to do with{} and [] and <>

I suppose swapping the <>'s for \ and / can be done, because then i can add | there as an altGr

In my head the keyboard is going to be used the most for instant messaging. You are right that there should also be a way to directly get to space.

I had one where space was in between comma and dot, and i guess i got rid of it because im an idiot. Hadnt done the reseach then and forgot about it because it was weird.

Remember it also messed with my white buttons, as that was the reason i scrapped it.

Russian layout has , and . on the same key, so they arent that standard, would be a benefit to better incorporate them a little though.

If russians have to have a space wedged in between their 8 and 9 key on zxcvb then that is a lesser concern than losing efficiency for everyone else.

Worst case they can physically cut the keymat to make that change. Hoping some pyras can be sold to russia before there is also a import boycot on electronic products.

Dont know how to input space on arabian layout, looks like electronic equipment is soon to be banned wholesale there though.

Space is a central character, and having it more centrally located is absolutely a concious decision, since it improves usability and lessens strain.

Enter in the corner isnt the best in this regard, but still.

Edit: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f3b56e997ef08cb2423b684825454039

Clean shift looks a lot more professional

You go dot comma to the right, and dot enter to the right,  then dot space to the left.

The alternative would be to roll AltGr instead of super and just do without that key and have select/ctrl start/alt as per normal. Does this fail?

I dont understand the difference between an evdev event and xinput, but a button that does both select and ctrl confuses me.

Guess its about time to start looking at all those asian layouts.

Edit2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#East_Asian_languages   Looks like japanese and chinese is possible if you have space and enter where i have Alt and AltGR

Running AltGR instead of super means the shoulders they take to do that, are duplicated.
 
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Put my Shift and Tab in the same spots as in comradekingu's latest proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdec20b301e75e4f6f666e4b89274f54

Also got rid of the dedicated \ | key, replacing it with a - + key, which combines the two keys between 0 and Backspace on a normal keyboard (though _ and = are still Meta symbols). The reason is that - is quite important for both natural language and coding, more so than backslash and pipe. Also on the command line, - is more important than \ and |.

Edit: fixed comment about dead key diacritics: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2fe05dc7b5503cc3d807c4598d782f72
 
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_wb_ said:
Put my Shift and Tab in the same spots as in comradekingu's latest proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdec20b301e75e4f6f666e4b89274f54

Also got rid of the dedicated \ | key, replacing it with a - + key, which combines the two keys between 0 and Backspace on a normal keyboard (though _ and = are still Meta symbols). The reason is that - is quite important for both natural language and coding, more so than backslash and pipe. Also on the command line, - is more important than \ and |.
Click to expand...
I'm not a programmer but when I code it's full of if statements containing || :D
 
bosbeetle said:
_wb_ said:
Put my Shift and Tab in the same spots as in comradekingu's latest proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdec20b301e75e4f6f666e4b89274f54

Also got rid of the dedicated \ | key, replacing it with a - + key, which combines the two keys between 0 and Backspace on a normal keyboard (though _ and = are still Meta symbols). The reason is that - is quite important for both natural language and coding, more so than backslash and pipe. Also on the command line, - is more important than \ and |.
Click to expand...
I'm not a programmer but when I code it's full of if statements containing || :D
Click to expand...
Meta+G is not more effort than Shift+\, so for pipe it doesn't really make a difference. For backslash it does, but I think we can agree that minus is more important than backslash. Especially when you're passing command options in the --long-gnu-style.
 
It's funny I received my 1GHz upgrade yesterday, and I had to do some terminal stuff and I used the msx.emu because I still had the old zx81 emulator there... but what was striking for myself is that I can type blind pretty easily on the pandora even with some funny charcters, I didnt realise it upto now... so somehow one does get used to layouts :)
 
Wally said:
I think we still need a full sized space bar.. Not all of us have small fingers.. *cough*
Click to expand...
Now the double-width space bar has even become something we can joke about, I think we can conclude that there's a consensus growing for the following:

  • Single-width space bar (no longer controversial I think)
  • QWERTYUIOP not centered but on the left, to make room for P+2 and L+2 (this one is still controversial, ask Askarus)
  • Dedicated Tab and Delete keys
  • Ctrl, Alt and Shift on shoulder buttons

Here are the most recent proposals by the three most active unofficial keyboard layout proposal designers:


There still is controversy about the number of Alt keys. I want 2: one on START and one on R2, while comradekingu and Saber want 3 of them: one on START, one on a shoulder button, and another AltGr on another shoulder button. This means they don't have room for Fn/Meta/Sym on the shoulder buttons.

There are also different ideas about what to do with the buttons on the top row (besides the central power button) and about where to put Tab, Enter, Space, Shift and Sym/Meta.

The names of the action buttons are also not yet clear. ABXY for the main buttons still has majority support I guess (mostly because of backwards compatibility with Pandora), although there's a significant minority that wants something else, but for the two extra buttons it is not at all clear what to call them. The proposals I have seen are I and II,  C and Z,  and IN and OUT. None of those are particularly appealing.
 
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_wb_ said:
  • Single-width space bar (no longer controversial I think)
Click to expand...
I disagree.Beside, I think ED want a double sized spacebar, else why would he used that in his current prototype ?

On a side note, I barely read theses keyboard layout threads as they more look like a few males looking for attentions then to a real practical work...
 
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