Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key

[bzar]

• Single-width space bar (no longer controversial I think)

I disagree.

Do we need a poll?

(EDIT: desirable - acceptable but undesirable - unacceptable?)

 

[Bosbeetle]

Seeing the poll on this topic, there are very few who are neutral, strange.

 

[Saber]

I think we still need a full sized space bar.. Not all of us have small fingers.. *cough*

Now the double-width space bar has even become something we can joke about, I think we can conclude that there's a consensus growing for the following:

• Single-width space bar (no longer controversial I think)
• QWERTYUIOP not centered but on the left, to make room for P+2 and L+2 (this one is still controversial, ask Askarus)
• Dedicated Tab and Delete keys
• Ctrl, Alt and Shift on shoulder buttons

Here are the most recent proposals by the three most active unofficial keyboard layout proposal designers:

• comradekingu: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f3b56e997ef08cb2423b684825454039
  
• Saber: centered: http://i.imgur.com/Aa4hNmu.png  non-centered: http://i.imgur.com/RxUg7de.png
• _wb_: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdec20b301e75e4f6f666e4b89274f54

There still is controversy about the number of Alt keys. I want 2: one on START and one on R2, while comradekingu and Saber want 3 of them: one on START, one on a shoulder button, and another AltGr on another shoulder button. This means they don't have room for Fn/Meta/Sym on the shoulder buttons.

There are also different ideas about what to do with the buttons on the top row (besides the central power button) and about where to put Tab, Enter, Space, Shift and Sym/Meta.

The names of the action buttons are also not yet clear. ABXY for the main buttons still has majority support I guess (mostly because of backwards compatibility with Pandora), although there's a significant minority that wants something else, but for the two extra buttons it is not at all clear what to call them. The proposals I have seen are I and II,  C and Z,  and IN and OUT. None of those are particularly appealing.

For the two newest buttons, I believe white and black colors for them were bandied about also like on the Xbox Controller.

For Spacebar being one or two key lengths, it has it's good and bad points. Good meaning we get another key out of it and bad being Pandora users have some minor relearning to do. A poll might be beneficial to gauge how the community feels about all the features and, looking over these proposals, it's truly amazing how far we've all come with them from where it had started. Whatever bits and pieces ED decides to take for the final one, I hope everyone gets mostly what they want out of it. 

 

[_wb_]

The poll in this thread is weird and I suspect it no longer accurately reflects the opinions.

This is something people tend to change their mind about when they think longer about it. I used to defend a double-width space bar myself until recently.

In this poll there are people who voted that they're "strongly opposed" to a single-width space key while they later said things to the effect that they "can live with it", or even that they prefer it. E.g. I may have misinterpreted Wally's comment:

I think we still need a full sized space bar.. Not all of us have small fingers.. *cough*

 

but I read that as ridiculing the double-width space bar. At least, if this is not a joke, the "big finger" argument does not make any sense.

 

[Saber]

The poll in this thread is weird and I suspect it no longer accurately reflects the opinions.

This is something people tend to change their mind about when they think longer about it. I used to defend a double-width space bar myself until recently.

In this poll there are people who voted that they're "strongly opposed" to a single-width space key while they later said things to the effect that they "can live with it", or even that they prefer it. E.g. I may have misinterpreted Wally's comment:

I think we still need a full sized space bar.. Not all of us have small fingers.. *cough*

 

but I read that as ridiculing the double-width space bar. At least, if this is not a joke, the "big finger" argument does not make any sense.

I've been reticent in suggesting if people would be okay with reduced Spacebar and the Enter switching positions. Backspace and Space nearer one another seemed to make sense.

 

[_wb_]

Some deviation from the Pandora layout is desirable anyway. I don't need ₤ € ¥ § and forward quote in the default layout and non-standard symbols on the shifted number row, for example.

 

[myNewUsername]

If you are sitting at your desk, why aren’t you using your desktop computer? There is no point in designing the Pyra for desktop use. If you want that, plug in a desktop keyboard, or better yet use your desktop computer. The Pyra needs to be designed to work hand held using your thumbs.

I agree, but there is one consideration that must be made. ED evidently plans on making a docking station somewhere down the line. If he has a strong opinion on wheter the pyra+docking station must be usable without an external keyboard, all non-purely-gaming keys should availabe from the front. I would be nice not to HAVE to use an external keyboard, even though it makes more sense.

 

[comradekingu]

How absurd, how otherwordly outrageous, how utterly P-O-T-A-T-O-E-S
would it be to use super+QWERTY for F-row keys?

Edit: cant get it to work, but would it?

Here is one without super, with meta in the least central position

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e06f7dd8c1f310e5677cf1f14a27b907

 

[DAP]

If you have changed your mind about the double wide space key, you can delete your vote. (I suspect you can also vote for a different item after you have deleted your vote, but I have not changed my mind, so I have not tried it).

 

[rygD]

for the two extra buttons it is not at all clear what to call them. The proposals I have seen are I and II,  C and Z,  and IN and OUT. None of those are particularly appealing.

For the two newest buttons, I believe white and black colors for them were bandied about also like on the Xbox Controller.

 
I was going to suggest something like this.  Do they need a name/label? Just make them a different color if they really need to be different.  You can always just say "top/upper and bottom/lower small button" or something.

 

[comradekingu]

If they are next to what is to be called the A button, or anything else, couldnt it just be A up and A down?

They are called BR-X and BR-Y on the PCB-layout  (as in the Y and X-axis)

 

[_wb_]

for the two extra buttons it is not at all clear what to call them. The proposals I have seen are I and II,  C and Z,  and IN and OUT. None of those are particularly appealing.

For the two newest buttons, I believe white and black colors for them were bandied about also like on the Xbox Controller.

 
I was going to suggest something like this.  Do they need a name/label? Just make them a different color if they really need to be different.  You can always just say "top/upper and bottom/lower small button" or something.

Colors are not really an option I think -- it would be too expensive to make the button material itself a different color (I think), so you would have to make them colored by using the label. E.g. if we have black keys with white/blue labels, then you could have more or less black, white or blue buttons, but the color would probably not fill the entire key. Black would not really be an option because it would look like space. White would be an option. Blue would be a bit weird because it would look like it's the Meta key itself.

Help screens will not look very good if they don't have a name.

For example, these could be shortcuts for a browser or terminal:


Ctrl-PgUp : Previous Tab
Ctrl-PgDn : Next Tab
Ctrl-plus : Zoom in
Ctrl-minus: Zoom out

On the Pyra, that would be:


R1-Y : Previous Tab
R1-X : Next Tab
R1-L2-IN : Zoom in
R1-L2-OUT: Zoom out

With unlabeled small buttons, you would have to say something like this:


R1-Y : Previous Tab
R1-X : Next Tab
R1-L2-(Upper small button) : Zoom in
R1-L2-(Lower small button) : Zoom out

If they are next to what is to be called the A button, or anything else, couldnt it just be A up and A down?

They are called BR-X and BR-Y on the PCB-layout  (as in the Y and X-axis)

A up and A down are confusing because that sounds like A (dpad up) and A (dpad down).

I wouldn't use the labels of the PCB layout as a guide, those are probably just preliminary labels because they had to put something on there.

 

[gardrek]

And dpad and action buttons should really not have other meanings when shoulder buttons are held, because that makes it really hard to configure games to use shoulder buttons without messing things up.

I agree with this, but your latest layout says "Meta + IN = Keypad_plus / Meta + OUT = Keypad_minus" which I think contradicts the quote. I don't think the smaller action buttons should be any different from the main ones in this respect.

 

[rygD]

for the two extra buttons it is not at all clear what to call them. The proposals I have seen are I and II,  C and Z,  and IN and OUT. None of those are particularly appealing.

For the two newest buttons, I believe white and black colors for them were bandied about also like on the Xbox Controller.

 
I was going to suggest something like this.  Do they need a name/label? Just make them a different color if they really need to be different.  You can always just say "top/upper and bottom/lower small button" or something.

Colors are not really an option I think -- it would be too expensive to make the button material itself a different color (I think), so you would have to make them colored by using the label. E.g. if we have black keys with white/blue labels, then you could have more or less black, white or blue buttons, but the color would probably not fill the entire key. Black would not really be an option because it would look like space. White would be an option. Blue would be a bit weird because it would look like it's the Meta key itself.

Help screens will not look very good if they don't have a name.

For example, these could be shortcuts for a browser or terminal:




Ctrl-PgUp : Previous Tab
Ctrl-PgDn : Next Tab
Ctrl-plus : Zoom in
Ctrl-minus: Zoom out

On the Pyra, that would be:




R1-Y : Previous Tab
R1-X : Next Tab
R1-L2-IN : Zoom in
R1-L2-OUT: Zoom out

With unlabeled small buttons, you would have to say something like this:




R1-Y : Previous Tab
R1-X : Next Tab
R1-L2-(Upper small button) : Zoom in
R1-L2-(Lower small button) : Zoom out

If they are next to what is to be called the A button, or anything else, couldnt it just be A up and A down?

They are called BR-X and BR-Y on the PCB-layout  (as in the Y and X-axis)

A up and A down are confusing because that sounds like A (dpad up) and A (dpad down).

I wouldn't use the labels of the PCB layout as a guide, those are probably just preliminary labels because they had to put something on there.

I took another look at the top 3 layouts.  What about calling them, labeling them and using them for + and -?  If no one likes that then how about one of the primary ways they are being used on the layouts, such as labeling and using them for Insert and Delete or Delete and Tab?  The problem I see with those is that they are tiny buttons so it may be hard to inscribe them in any useful way.   

 

[_wb_]

I took another look at the top 3 layouts.  What about calling them, labeling them and using them for + and -?

That is a nice idea. I initially rejected that option because it would mean there would be no dedicated Del key, but now that I made a dedicated +- key anyway, I can make that the dedicated Del key (no need for a dedicated Ins key, let's put it on Meta-Backspace since Meta-Del is already taken for F11).

These are nice, simple, unambiguous labels for the extra action buttons, and you get easier zoom shortcuts for free.

This also solves the following quite valid remark, since there is now no more need to have Meta meanings for those keys (which I wanted because zooming in and out are quite important things to do when the screen is small).

And dpad and action buttons should really not have other meanings when shoulder buttons are held, because that makes it really hard to configure games to use shoulder buttons without messing things up.

I agree with this, but your latest layout says "Meta + IN = Keypad_plus / Meta + OUT = Keypad_minus" which I think contradicts the quote. I don't think the smaller action buttons should be any different from the main ones in this respect.

Delete close to Backspace but slightly to the left of it, it makes perfect sense in my head. And it's also a key that can be sacrificed if you want to remap it to Ü or Å or whatever.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/73c6dc6262463dd1046d1a5009e72526

 

[rygD]

That is a nice idea. I initially rejected that option because it would mean there would be no dedicated Del key, but now that I made a dedicated +- key anyway, I can make that the dedicated Del key (no need for a dedicated Ins key, let's put it on Meta-Backspace since Meta-Del is already taken for F11).  

These are nice, simple, unambiguous labels for the extra action buttons, and you get easier zoom shortcuts for free.  

This also solves the following quite valid remark, since there is now no more need to have Meta meanings for those keys (which I wanted because zooming in and out are quite important things to do when the screen is small).

I really like that dedicated Delete, and it is in a good place imo.  I didn't think you would be too fond of the +/- idea, but it made the most sense to keep markings minimal on gaming buttons (and reminds me of the Wiimote).

You have probably already mentioned this, but is there a specific reason why you want to keep so many additional characters on the letter keys?  One of the things I like most about comradekingu's layouts is that they are clean looking, yet still offer a lot of functionality.  A lot of things are also in an area that is familiar to me, so even if they aren't in exactly the right place they are near where I expect.  I know you can't do too much without completely revamping your layout.  Have you considered minor relocation of things to places that are close to where they might be more expected, or putting more stuff on the number row?  Even though I am trying to compare a variety of QWERTY keyboards, I can't make many suggestions.  I will try to run through this thread again to get a better grasp of why everything is where it is.

Edit:  A benefit to keeping letter key markings minimal is for those who want a different layout (QWERTZ, AVERTY, Dvorak).  They won't need to worry too much about the additional characters on letter keys when they move everything around if there aren't many.

 

[_wb_]

Yes, the look of comradekingu's layout is cleaner and somewhat remapper-friendly. But:

- he has no Esc key (or no key labeled Esc, maybe it is AltGr+Backspace or something like that)

- he has no labels for the F-keys, which is confusing. If you put in the labels, physically moving keys to get AZERTY or QWERTZ will still give you wrong labels.

- I'm a bit worried that having all the symbols on the number row may be bad for efficiency when coding

- some layouts (e.g. French, Czech) use the number row for their language-specific letters, and they use shift+number for the actual numbers. In my layout you could map Meta-[number] to the language-specific letters (or to numbers and remap numbers to language-specific letters). In comradekingu's layout the numbers already have third modifier labels.

- comradekingu's layout needs the P+2 keys for [{ ]} and L+1 for \ |. That leaves no room for a Delete and Meta key like what I have over there.

- only 2 labels per key is probably going to be more readable than 1 label on most keys and 3 labels for the symbols. Readability is important mostly for the symbols, because the letters are the ones you can type blindly first.

I'll try to make a proposal avoiding symbols on the letter rows when I find time for it.

 

[rygD]

he has no Esc key (or no key labeled Esc, maybe it is AltGr+Backspace or something like that)

I believe it is something like this.

he has no labels for the F-keys, which is confusing. If you put in the labels, physically moving keys to get AZERTY or QWERTZ will still give you wrong labels.

They are in grey, but good point about moving keys.

- comradekingu's layout needs the P+2 keys for [{ ]} and L+1 for \ |. That leaves no room for a Delete and Meta key like what I have over there.

I can't remember, however I think delete was also a modified backspace.  In the latest version Super has been replaced with Meta, kinda like what you were doing earlier, however Meta is only for the F keys, I think.

- only 2 labels per key is probably going to be more readable than 1 label on most keys and 3 labels for the symbols. Readability is important mostly for the symbols, because the letters are the ones you can type blindly first.

Probably a good call on readability of symbols.  It is difficult to guess without knowing what characters will look like on the keys.

I'll try to make a proposal avoiding symbols on the letter rows when I find time for it.

You can try moving a few things around to more typical locations (maybe | on P or L for example) instead of trying to get rid of them all.  As much as I like the way a clean keyboard looks, functionality and ease of use are most important, and if you suspect it will be harder to find something on a 3 character key, go with what you feel is best.

 

[_wb_]

Here is  a proposal with the extra symbols on the number row:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0f43794cae344b5d386d3528d41d9e7c

The French and Czech etc can map their é è ç à and so on to the number row, using Shift for the actual numbers (as usual for them), Meta for the Meta-symbols, and Shift+Meta for the normal symbols. So that still kind of works.

Other changes:

- Esc is now a dedicated key in the very top left (not an unusual spot for that key). Tilde is at Meta+Esc.

- Shift+comma/period are back to < and >, as is standard. However ; and : are kept as Meta-keys (just like on the Pandora, but on the correct side (right) of the keyboard)

- Meta+Space is underscore (makes a bit of sense in my head)

- put all the hardware toggles on one key (unshifted=wifi, Meta=3G, Shift=Bluetooth, Meta+Shift=HDMI)

- put all the brightness adjustments on one key (unshifted=screen, Meta=keyboard)

 

[comradekingu]

My big problem is i have no labels for escape and delete, and no super-key

Esc is meta+backspace. AltGr+backspace is delete (since altGr is closer to delete on a regular keyboard)

The labels for the F-keys are gray, so that they dissapear from the visual overview. Typewriter-keys take precendence. If you do end up hardware-modifying to get AZERTY, it wont be as visually disturbing.

With A-Z being white, and input modification being black, it is a different colour.

Coding efficiency is through the coding cluster, which you will switch to when not using your regional layout. Other than $ i dont see any keys not very available.

Printing stuff where it doesnt belong is a problem, and it is contained to the AltGR+numbers, it is possible to get tick, backtick and ^, but if you want your own keys, then do that.

What i think is everything that everyone needs is contained to the numbers row, instead of having to look at the whole keyboard for things. Its a bit different for all, but at the same time common enough to make sense.

If you end up not liking the prints on the A-Z you are left with symbols that dont work, on regular keys, and i didnt feel too at home with that from the get-go.

What we know is that the numbers and the keys (with A in the A-key spot) is going to be the same position for everyone. So with my layout i would print shift+ and AltGr+ a bit smaller to the left and right on the numbers row.

It can more easily be disregarded then, and also visually becomes less intrusive.

Its like giving the french an english keyboard, it works for everything, and if you want it to be effective, it gets less in your way with remapping.

AltGr+regular keys work, and that hides a lot of ugliness that is different for each layout. Like € and such.

I would consider printing the numbers row with numbers only, but the problem is that it isnt a full row. I think what is the most important thing is making it look easy, and 2 buttons per key looks like a hacky-compromise to me. Like having the F-keys not on the same row, it doesnt matter a whole lot functionally, but it makes the whole board look flawed, and tiny. As if you could sit down and say, "oh, i see how there were too few keys here, its evident that someone hacked up a second rate solution to make due"

I know thats gone now, but delete and meta in the middle of the layout i cant say i like. I didnt print esc and del because maybe we find something that makes sense later for those.And/or they arent crucially needed. Leaving it up to whoever to make the most sense themselves could be best, but I dont know. Right now it looks confident, things explain themselves. If you hack in stuff, it raises questions.

The f-row is such a hack, and we have to be prepared to explain it. Luckily F-keys arent crucial, but i think its also important that the explanation makes sense, and it does.

I do think having whatever I made, and wb's layout is the two valid ways you can go, and that presents ED with the best choices.

Edit: had forgotten about keyboard backlight. And there is also the rgb.-led on the back...

How about each brightness-toggle has a subsection for keyboard, then no meta is needed.

Screen      Keyboard LED

low             off

low             on

medium      of

medium      on

High           off

High            on

Which means you are 5 presses (at worst) away from the one you want. Is that too many?

I think i like meta+ better, but how to mark it.   A 16:9 square above a sun, and that keyboard over a sun in gray?

Are keyboard leds either on or off?

How about holding the button regulates screen intensity, and clicking the button turns on and off keyboard LED?

It would be somewhat nice to reserve holding the button for bringing up the menu option, but that might be a bit risky with WiFi?