Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key

[_wb_]

One more iteration, this time with the right-most keys a bit reorganized to make more sense:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c9c9596b57b55b9607bb1fd36bc1168d

 

[WizardStan]

I haven't been reading every post, just trying to get the highlights, so I apologize if I've missed the answer, but is there a reason why you've elected to put CapsLock on meta-tab instead of meta-shift, and left shift unaltered?

 

[_wb_]

I haven't been reading every post, just trying to get the highlights, so I apologize if I've missed the answer, but is there a reason why you've elected to put CapsLock on meta-tab instead of meta-shift, and left shift unaltered?

Because if you want to type e.g. Shift-F1 without using shoulder buttons, you need to press Meta+Shift+Q, so Meta+Shift cannot be Caps Lock.

Edit:

Minor changes: moved tilde to 5 (was on Esc), backslash to Meta+/,  Media keys to ASDFG and PrintScreen/ScrollLock/Break to JKL

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/de9d202534bde33f6f4ab365e1a75a33

 

[comradekingu]

A french keyboard is the same +1 +2 ordeal that most everyone else seems to do. They type what their special accents are to them, like germans type their accentuation. Both in the same way.

Since the french have so many accents, they type the 4 most used ones on the number keys. Directly.  http://french.about.com/od/writing/ss/typeaccents_4.htm Exactly what the Germans use +3 for. They use +4 for compose.

The irish do it differently, but then they need altGr.

Whether we can adhere to the french placement or not, who knows, but we can never ever un-teach typing french. One accentuation-mark per number key means less trouble though. Its a good example of how adding even the most simple elements still causes concern, and its a slippery slope into trying to fix, but ultimately ruining, the keyboard experience for everyone. Yes every little thing can make some sense, but if its arbitrary to the whole experience, it is ultimately only to the person who made it. And whoever is willing to learn hacks/read manuals. The bigger picture is about overview, that is the only thing we can effectivly communicate to a prospect buyer.

That needs to never be forgotten, because if you start out doing one thing, and continue doing small things that dont fit, it ends up being a chain of events where no real compromise is made, instead making the end-product compromised.

Saying a number of modifiers employs enough combinations is additionally broken logic, because it changes fundamental keyboard practice. Alt is not a typing key, nor is super, meta (it can be) or ctrl. Meta could be, but then it isn't super. The keys you want to use as combinators are limited. And also if you take away functionality, no matter how mathematically flawed, it opens up new holes and you end up having to shift everything around. Not only for the things we can employ some logic and fail at, but also at the logic we are unaware of. However, doing away with dedicated keys is _never_ the answer.

What language is it that i can switch to, using the L+1 in your layout, that doesnt make use of ?  Id venture a guess and say no languages.  Make it an easy transition.

So we start looking at all layouts, they are generally no more than +4, the P+3 we cant do anything for, other than make it +4 in the case they have +3+1

Why meta instead of super is better than meta instead of AltGr. One is the lack of buttons, the other is a can of worms.

Without an AltGr key, the idea is that meta does what AltGr should have done.  Stops being the case when you cant use AltGr+ the whole QWERTY-row, since that is reserved for F-keys.

Also for the P+2 part of many layouts, rendering them halfway-done. Like turkish

Yes the number of shoulder buttons is limited, if you dont have meta here, it means you miss out on easy access to the meta combos. The thing is though,

if you do end up having to put meta on the column-row, it means you arent using meta for anything else than F-keys.

Crucially, F-keys arent needed, it is possible to get on without them. Also, the F-row we have is the hack, meta is a hack, if everything else stays the same, it works, however inept the different input-systems may be.

So what about super?  Having meta and AltGr means no super.  However meta can take the place for super, with the exception of the aforementioned F-row (QWERTY)

Missing out on AltGr+QWERTY  unacceptable

Missing out on super+QWERTY a problem if you are powerusing ubuntu unity

 

[_wb_]

Anyone who already knows some existing layout on a full-size keyboard will have to re-train muscle memory anyway, since thumbs have not the same muscles and thus not the same memory as fingers. If you're used to full-size keyboard typing, your thumbs are used to pressing the space bar, and that's pretty much it. It's an illusion to think that someone who can type blindly on a full-size keyboard will immediately be able to type blindly on a Pyra keyboard. A learning curve is unavoidable, we can only try to make it as smooth as possible by making sure that the layout makes sense. Key labels that match the actual key actions help a lot.

My layout works for all Latin-alphabet languages without needing to remap. That means two thumb presses are needed for everything besides plain A-Z, but that's inevitable in an international layout.

If you do want to remap the keys to the right of P and L, it's still possible: for P+1 you just sacrifice Del, for P+2 you move Enter to where Meta is (you still have L2 for Meta), for L+1 you sacrifice / and \ and map ? to Meta+[L+1]. Or / to Meta+[L+1] and ? to Meta+Shift+[L+1]. For L+2 you just sacrifice Shift (you still have L1).

But I expect that the majority does not want to remap keys. I don't like it when labels don't match actions, and no amount of remapping is going to solve the fundamental problem that there are not enough keys.

My focus is to make the default work well for English and for coding, and to make it as convenient as possible to type other Latin-alphabet languages.

What language is it that i can switch to, using the L+1 in your layout, that doesnt make use of ?  Id venture a guess and say no languages.  Make it an easy transition.

Well, since you ask for an example: French has , and ? on M

By the way, I wonder why in your layout you have a forward quote (or is it acute accent?) symbol ´ on 5, in addition to the normal quote ' on 3. One of them is unnecessary.

 

[comradekingu]

The logical flaw in that argument is that visually seeing the wrong letter on more keys, as the case is when you have to remap recursivly, isnt better for touch-typist nor noob. Because ultimately, you have to visually take in the controls, as you said. I can touch-type on a pandora keyboard. The keys arent the problem, the layout is.

My proposed layout for pyra also works for all latin chars, but it facilitates switching layouts, because international keyboards suck for everyone. "works" is different depending on the eye that sees.

Half the people are going to want what makes their layout _not_ an equivalent of US international, which is _dedicated keys_  Smart remapping means you don't have to remap to other keys, which in turn are full, which in turn this that and the other.

What makes your layout better for English than the same English with a coding cluster that resembles UK/US layout?

Ok, you have a layout that intrinsically makes sense for french people, and then stops making sense for french people because they need 4 dedicated keys on the F-row number row.  If everyone has to suffer for French being good on default, then why isnt french glorious there?

Its meaning to be the accent aigu, as in é  and not the ' in    "don't"   (edit: i see what you mean now, well spotted) I started with " on 2 because its shift+2 on german.

German and scandinavian, have accents, just not to a great extent. Which explains the layout, if you look into other layouts you find the same thing, nobody wants to type their language inefficiently.

Edit2:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0de0d08bcff936baba2e016bb1ca926a

It allowed me to place tilda closer to the key to the left of 1 (where it is on US layout)   "2    and =0 is from  german layout        

My number row has math symbols to the right, and a bit of coding things on the left.  It would make some sense to have tilda # and $ over on the right, but then you end up breaking the semi-german, and it breaks with the solid shift+ non-semi US.

It does though mean that coders can use both their hands. I imply here that they are the same kind of people who dont need to keyboard-shift on the right, but instead use shouldershift.

People hashtagging away the one life they have, should be _required_ to allow for some time to think about it.

The middle bit of the number row is interesting, because it has all the most common accents  aigu, retroflex and grave.  That order is the only one that makes any sense to me. Also they are dead-keyed by the use of meta.

Then i thought, you can reach meta and press 5, 6 or 7 at the same time, which makes  those a straight one-two action.   Instead of one press,one shoulder, then an action.

Which means meta has to go most central. Losing out on the swipe-combo with either alt or ctrl.  I would think most F-row combos are alt+   but then you break with pandora convention, because its  start/alt  select/ctrl pandora      I want to go   select/ctrl   start/alt   and then  pyra/meta

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ff9b17388506f2c823e85cf5207d660a

I messed up on the ' connotation earlier, leaving it in to learn it.

4 is left open, suggestions?  Cant do the french quotation marks, « » because need 2 for those.  Also it wouldnt make sense because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_variation_in_quotation_marks

I could do a £ just to have it next to what the americans call poundsign (#) 

Edit 3: could just leave 3 open and use the german position for §, but i think this falls under the foreign char rule. Possibly also useless things on the keyboard rule.

 

[bzar]

Do we need a poll on whether people think they will remap the keyboard to include non-english letter keys as primary functions or not? Maybe even with an added "I speak english as my first language" modifier to further break it down.

It seems you've hit a fundamental difference in assumptions. You can argue your positions on why people would or wouldn't (should or shouldn't) use a default layout or destructively remap it, but people are complex and do stuff for different reasons. Any argumentative conclusion will not necessarily reflect the reality.

 

[comradekingu]

Im saying remapping shouldnt open up the need for additional remapping for the reasons people remap anything.

We have to keep in mind how and why layouts are different, and also why they dont, how it applies to a thumb typing experience, on the 64key keyboard we have to work with.

If you put up a vote asking "do you want full space" you get a lot of yes because it implies the fullness relates to something handheld. Some people fundamentally dont understand this, nor what compromise is.

However there are no such false positives in the +3 section of this poll, and they make up the majority. Feel free to suggest otherwise with some reasoning. We dont need to run over anyone else, but one does have to acknowledge that is the way it is.

Designing according to votes is a bit design by committee, depending what you ask for, depending on how you interpret. What we need is fundamentally pure approaches. The wb 2per-key and my intl one and reduced english from saber are the three alternatives that make sense imo.

A-Z on the A-Z keys +4 for intl and US shiftstandard 0-9 are the rules which make universal sense.

As for what else there is on the number row, those are suggestions. Im just trying to provide people with sane defaults.  I don't think people understand what remapping means, but layouts are the way they are because it makes typing a language other than English more effective. People don't change the way they type, nor speak, because it relates to English better. Saberlayout fails for all these people, in return you get better placement of return/enter.

Also there is the people who seem to think the pandora keyboard was something to go by. 

If we use the extra bit of the English keyboard to accomodate hackers with a coding cluster then we really tickle the sweet-spot of pyra userbase.

We need more testing. It may or may not make sense to duplicate alt and ctrl. Desktop-mode is a nice for having them onboard, efficiency is a good reason to not. Depends on how well they work.

We cant put shift on shoulders, because that requires basic language input to use shoulders, but we can put shift on the keyboard in a place it can be swapped out (+4.) Also it makes desktop typing possible for at least english people.

I know very well that English people dont intuitivly put up with anything that isn't their homeground, which means a final resolution that looks good to both will get the most votes. Be it through ignorance or not, accommodating international while catering to English is the way to go imo. (Note that I mean ignorance, not arrogance.)  Just as ignorant as i was when i thought having , and . in the "standard" positions made the most sense. I had never truly questioned it, and just assumed that to be the case.

Remapping being a foreign concept, doesn't get easier if there are caveats to how it works.  It should be:  these keys are now those you are used to.  Not, "and then you have to figure out how to place enter, no, there aren't any AltGr combos." (like on wb intl) because that defeats the purpose.

I think all the designers should get a chance at fully explaining their layout. To mention what is wrong with mine, there is no ESC or Del.   Meta+backspace and AltGr+backspace  to replace it is ugly.

But thats where i made the cut. Noobs will not be affected, pros can remap the column-key   alt and select. But I don't know

A perfect layout does not change from day to day, we seem to not have reached any finality yet. Its all about testing, and in practice it doesn't make sense defending a layout nobody has truly tried. And if its made based on not full understanding, it is at best accidentally good. That does _not_ happen to a whole keyboard.

Input from speakers of different languages are needed.

We also need more spanish influence, i know enough spanish to know they use upside-down questionmark. I have ! and ? on the same key, which makes upside down both, harder.

Its like playing chess where every move you make is equally as important as the current one, being up against an arbitrary attack-vector, trying to not lose position against alternative attacks along the way, on a board that has a fundamental limit on movement.

 

[_wb_]

Minor update:

- put underscore _ besides ^, because that kind of makes sense in a LaTeX sense

- pipe is now at Meta+space, which makes it as close to a dedicated pipe key as Tab is close to a dedicated key on the Pandora (hurray for shell users)

- slightly reordered ` " ´ = ~ in the old layout to ~ " ` ´ = in the new layout. Makes slightly more sense in my mind (easier to find home ~ and easier to distinguish ` from ´)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/45ff536f3275382a3674047bc5c228f2

@comradekingu: when you edit your posts, can you please indicate what you have added? I often see that your previous posts become larger so I have to re-read them to figure out what you added.

I disagree with your opinion that the F-keys are unimportant. I use them all of the time. F11 to go full screen in nearly every application. F4 to edit a file in mc, or F3 to view, F5 to copy, F6 to move, F7 to mkdir, F8 to remove, F10 to quit, and so on. When coding I often need Shift-F5 in the mc editor to insert a file into another file. Lots of applications use the F-keys for shortcuts. I also want to easily go to text consoles by pressing Ctrl-Alt-F-keys.

I'm also not saying that AltGr keys are not useful or anything like that. I'm just saying that we don't need one by default since we already have our Meta key. But by all means, if someone needs AltGr, he can use the right Alt for that, as is usual. And it will be available for all keys, including the number row. The right Alt is the Alt at R2, so it is convenient. Of course you then lose the normal Alt shoulder button, which brings you back to the Pandora situation w.r.t. Alt convenience (only START, so kind of sucks, but it's not that bad if you configure most of your common shortcuts to be Ctrl and Ctrl-Shift shortcuts).

Do we need a poll on whether people think they will remap the keyboard to include non-english letter keys as primary functions or not? Maybe even with an added "I speak english as my first language" modifier to further break it down.

It seems you've hit a fundamental difference in assumptions. You can argue your positions on why people would or wouldn't (should or shouldn't) use a default layout or destructively remap it, but people are complex and do stuff for different reasons. Any argumentative conclusion will not necessarily reflect the reality.

Whether or not they will remap will probably mostly depend on whether or not the default layout is good enough for them. Although I suspect that there are people who will not remap anyway because they don't like incorrect labels, and people who will remap no matter what because they like finetuning things to their own preference.

Both my layout and comradekingu's layout are suitable for remapping the P+2 and L+2 keys, there is not really a difference. In both cases the default keys at those positions will have to find a new place: for comradekingu's proposal you have to move [ { ] } \  / to somewhere else, for my proposal you have to move Del / ? to somewhere else. Note that comradekingu does not have a Del key (unless it's one of the new action buttons).

To fix my layout after remapping P+2 and L+2, it suffices to live without Del and the redundant Shift and Meta keys, move Enter to old Meta, and make / ? Meta symbols instead of primary symbols. You then still have to find a new place for \ (because you just remapped it to /), e.g. on Shift+|.

To fix comradekingu's layout after remapping P+2 and L+2, it's harder, because there are more keys to move. Unless you can live without [ { ] } \ /, or toggle between "natural language layout" and "coding layout" as comradekingu suggested.

Anyway, I insist that for many languages, just the P+2 and L+2 are not sufficient. For example, take a look at a standard Hungarian keyboard:
 

Note that it has 9 pre-accented letters (Í É Á Ú Ó Ö Ü Ő Ű) as well as a whole bunch of dead key diacritics (on the number row).

For someone who needs to input Hungarian, my proposal offers everything in one or two thumb presses, without needing to remap anything. I don't know what you're supposed to do in comradekingu's layout.

 

[comradekingu]

I never meant to say they are unimportant. What i meant by not crucially important is that you can get away in a basic scenario totally without the use of F-keys.  Much the same way you can use rightclick on the mouse to get just about everything done.

A fundamental difference between remapping +4 and changing layout on +4 is that [ { ] } \  /  isnt needed for natural language input.  If you need those, for coding as the case is, then switch back, you will vice versa not need öäü and accents or compose when coding. 

Having to remap enter again is also a major gripe, and it hits german and many others.   For me meta duplicated on the keyboard doesnt make sense, but then again no AltGr when you do 3-per key makes no sense to me.

To fix my layout after remapping P+2 and L+2

This should never occur, it is absolutely a reason why people wont change layout, and it looks ill deviced and non thought through. It makes the concept seem flawed. In turn making the keyboard appear flawed to a huge amount of people. Lets forget the "hackers will hack their way"-mentality.  Lets get into the  "people are really not us, and that is ok."

Hungarian is a non-example of why 2+2 doesnt work, because it has 12 keys on the ASDF, we only have 11 total. The +4 idea stems from how it incorporates most languages. Thats where the monies are, which difference is between shipping one thing or the other. People pay to be thought of. Even if they buy it anyway, it adds value for free. That is not a perceived value. Perceivably its better for english people if they never knew how or why it happened, which is how id like to keep it. People should not have a good reason the layout.

Thats why i never printed Esc or Del on any keys. It looks like a hack. It is a hack. It spurs "what is this sentiment"  I barely have knowledge what each key does on a 105-key, and i assume most people know less than me.

Edit: Lets assume you have no compose keys, as the case is on default +4

According to US standard http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ we use AltGr positions for other symbols, so this is a hack. Therefore meta.

All these are dead-key  ::: most used ::: may be wrong about this

` (grave accent)                           Meta+7  à è ì ò ù À È Ì Ò Ù (this is a swipe-combo)

~ (tilde)                                        Meta+4  ã ĩ ő ñ ũ Ã Ĩ Ő Ñ Ũ (may change to 3)

^ (circumflex)                                Meta+6  â ĉ ê ĝ ĥ î ĵ ô ŝ û Â Ĉ Ê Ĝ Ĥ Î Ĵ Ô Ŝ Û (this is a swipe-combo)

* (asterisk)                                    Meta+8 å ů Å Ů  (To my knowledge only used by scandinavians, which have dedicated ring above letters)

( (left parenthesis)                       Meta+9   ă ğ ŭ Ă Ğ Ŭ

- (hyphen)                                   Meta+AltGr+9  đ ħ ŧ Đ Ħ Ŧ   I can use AltGr+h for ħ  and +f for đ

\ (backslash, reverse solidus)      Meta+shift+(L→1) ą ę į ų Ą Ę Į Ų

| (vertical bar)                              Meta+altGr+(L→1) ā ē ī ō ū Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū

: (colon)                                       Meta+shift+(M→3) ä ë ï ö ü ÿ Ä Ë Ï Ö Ü Ÿ

' (apostrophe)                              Meta+5 á ć é í ĺ ń ó ŕ ś ú ý ź Á Ć É Í Ĺ Ń Ó Ŕ Ś Ú Ý Ź   (this is a swipe-combo)

" (quotation mark)                        Meta+2    ő ű Ő Ű

, (comma)                                     Meta+(M→1) ç ģ ķ ļ ņ ŗ ş ţ Ç Ģ Ķ Ļ Ņ Ŗ Ş Ţ

< (less than sign)                          Meta+shift+(M→1) č ď ě ǐ ľ ň ř š ť ž Č Ď Ě Ǐ Ľ Ň Ř Š Ť Ž

. (period)                                       Meta+(M→3) ċ ė ı ġ ż Ċ Ė Ġ İ Ż

/ (slash, solidus)                            Meta+altGR+(L→1) ł ø Ł Ø

comradekingu                              

 

[Saber]

Do we need a poll on whether people think they will remap the keyboard to include non-english letter keys as primary functions or not? Maybe even with an added "I speak english as my first language" modifier to further break it down.

It seems you've hit a fundamental difference in assumptions. You can argue your positions on why people would or wouldn't (should or shouldn't) use a default layout or destructively remap it, but people are complex and do stuff for different reasons. Any argumentative conclusion will not necessarily reflect the reality.

Why don't you make a poll then?

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

I think we just need to break down what is *really* needed and then go from there. Like comradekingu said; one can just use right click for certain things. I know I do that - like closing tabs, making new tabs, opening new windows etc. For refreshing I just click the refresh arrows.


I think it's important not to get into a rut of what is just habit and what we're used to seeing on a keyboard. To be fair, on my keyboard, I don't use nor know what half the buttons are even for. But I'm a basic user, so maybe start there before all the fancy shortcut stuff.


Everyone from anywhere has the right to use their own language letters, so what can be sacrificed to get them on?

 

[comradekingu]

We cant really sacrifice anything, nor do we need to. If you want to also be able to incorporate +3+2+  layouts you could move enter and space to ctrl and alt on shoulders, since they are duplicated on the keyboard.

That would be a sacrifice on their behalf, but its still the best we can do while still staying relevant for a majority of people.

If we do a vote it should be divided into basic and advanced users, because that is the metric we need. We are very short on basic users i think. If people could show their parents or non-computer friends we could fully understand where we step wrong.

 

[_wb_]

I never meant to say they are unimportant. What i meant by not crucially important is that you can get away in a basic scenario totally without the use of F-keys.  Much the same way you can use rightclick on the mouse to get just about everything done.


A fundamental difference between remapping +4 and changing layout on +4 is that [ { ] } \  /  isnt needed for natural language input.  If you need those, for coding as the case is, then switch back, you will vice versa not need öäü and accents or compose when coding.

I think / is probably needed in natural language because he/she may want to do this kind of stuf and/or other kind of stuff, maybe using GNU/Linux.

Also, I relatively frequently use square brackets in natural language to do things like "He sayd [sic] he wanted to do some [...] crazy shit".

You're probably right about { } \ | being not frequently used. Still, some people code in programming languages that support unicode (most of them by now) and may want to enter text strings in their native language. Also I imagine that on the command line, you may want to be able to type file names in your native language and still be able to enter all shell syntax you need.

Having to remap enter again is also a major gripe, and it hits german and many others. For me meta duplicated on the keyboard doesnt make sense, but then again no AltGr when you do 3-per key makes no sense to me.

Remapping Enter is only needed in my layout if you need P+2. For German and many others, only P+1 is used. Or are you talking about ß? That one would belong where zero (0) is in our layouts.

German has I O P Ü and on the next row J K L Ö Ä. The only thing that they have to do is map Del to Ü, / to Ö, LShift to Ä, and /? to Meta-Ö. Still reasonable, I think. Of course they can also not remap and use L1+L2+" U to get Ü, etc.

To fix my layout after remapping P+2 and L+2

This should never occur, it is absolutely a reason why people wont change layout, and it looks ill deviced and non thought through. It makes the concept seem flawed. In turn making the keyboard appear flawed to a huge amount of people. Lets forget the "hackers will hack their way"-mentality. Lets get into the "people are really not us, and that is ok."

Hungarian is a non-example of why 2+2 doesnt work, because it has 12 keys on the ASDF, we only have 11 total. The +4 idea stems from how it incorporates most languages. Thats where the monies are, which difference is between shipping one thing or the other. People pay to be thought of. Even if they buy it anyway, it adds value for free. That is not a perceived value. Perceivably its better for english people if they never knew how or why it happened, which is how id like to keep it. People should not have a good reason the layout.

Remapping is a hack anyway. If the label says [ { and when you press it, you get Ü, then something non-intuitive is going on anyway. There's no way around that.

Thats why i never printed Esc or Del on any keys. It looks like a hack. It is a hack. It spurs "what is this sentiment" I barely have knowledge what each key does on a 105-key, and i assume most people know less than me.

Yet Esc and Del are fairly frequently used keys. Not having them labeled anywhere is worse than putting them in a strange place. Especially Esc is absolutely necessary. I personally also use a lot of Delete: I use backspace almost only to correct typos immediately as I type, while for actual editing, I mostly use Delete (and its modified versions, like Shift-Del for Cut, which I use more frequently than Ctrl-X on a full-size keyboard.

According to US standard http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ we use AltGr positions for other symbols, so this is a hack. Therefore meta.


All these are dead-key  ::: most used ::: may be wrong about this

` (grave accent)                           Meta+7  à è ì ò ù À È Ì Ò Ù (this is a swipe-combo)


~ (tilde)                                        Meta+4  ã ĩ ő ñ ũ Ã Ĩ Ő Ñ Ũ (may change to 3)

^ (circumflex)                                Meta+6  â ĉ ê ĝ ĥ î ĵ ô ŝ û Â Ĉ Ê Ĝ Ĥ Î Ĵ Ô Ŝ Û (this is a swipe-combo)


* (asterisk)                                    Meta+8 å ů Å Ů  (To my knowledge only used by scandinavians, which have dedicated ring above letters)


( (left parenthesis)                       Meta+9   ă ğ ŭ Ă Ğ Ŭ


- (hyphen)                                   Meta+AltGr+9  đ ħ ŧ Đ Ħ Ŧ   I can use AltGr+h for ħ  and +f for đ


\ (backslash, reverse solidus)      Meta+shift+(L→1) ą ę į ų Ą Ę Į Ų


| (vertical bar)                              Meta+altGr+(L→1) ā ē ī ō ū Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū


: (colon)                                       Meta+shift+(M→3) ä ë ï ö ü ÿ Ä Ë Ï Ö Ü Ÿ

' (apostrophe)                              Meta+5 á ć é í ĺ ń ó ŕ ś ú ý ź Á Ć É Í Ĺ Ń Ó Ŕ Ś Ú Ý Ź   (this is a swipe-combo)


" (quotation mark)                        Meta+2    ő ű Ő Ű


, (comma)                                     Meta+(M→1) ç ģ ķ ļ ņ ŗ ş ţ Ç Ģ Ķ Ļ Ņ Ŗ Ş Ţ


< (less than sign)                          Meta+shift+(M→1) č ď ě ǐ ľ ň ř š ť ž Č Ď Ě Ǐ Ľ Ň Ř Š Ť Ž


. (period)                                       Meta+(M→3) ċ ė ı ġ ż Ċ Ė Ġ İ Ż


/ (slash, solidus)                            Meta+altGR+(L→1) ł ø Ł Ø

Nice idea to use your Meta in that way, but this way it becomes basically just a compose key, because you need three thumb presses (except maybe for those "swipe-combos", but I doubt that such a "swipe" is easy to perform reliably). Also, which diacritics are the most common ones, that depends a lot on the language.

In your layout, you could use something like Ctrl+AltGr or Alt+AltGr instead of Meta to get the dead key diacritics. That way you can reduce it to two thumb presses per accented letter.

Anyway, I keep insisting that needing 5 modifier keys just to do the things you can do on even on the earliest standard IBM PC keyboards, is confusing and inefficient. We have 4 shoulder buttons, and 3 obligatory modifier keys (Shift, Ctrl, Alt), so let's do all the other stuff with just 1 additional modifier key (I don't care how it's called) so we can have all the important modifiers on the shoulder buttons.

* * *

To give a hint about the Shift+Meta dead key diacritics, perhaps they could be indicated like this:

At least for some of them.

For convenience, here's the link to my proposal, but I didn't find a way to include the hints there: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d30811e43469bd0e37610b1c07f06d84

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

@comradekingu: I agree there should be more basic user input. I am one, myself. I don't use fancy shortcut buttons, and I rarely use any combo buttons.


If things can be moved so there's no duplicates, then go for it

 

[comradekingu]

My bad, was wrong about your layout, thought it was +2+1.

On the pandora i can do the pandorabutton+TYU, and it is farther away than it is on the pyralayout.

For german, you still have enter where there should be a compose key  ^˚  That is their preferred method of input. Meta+ input of accents can be functionally anything, good or bad, it doesnt matter

German people dont use or know the US international layout.

Inputting Ü on the correct key is not a hack. Its everything else that is a hack. Not having the correct label doesnt matter much, thats an inconsistency. Correct placement always takes precedence.

Laptops have been printing multiple and conflicting letters on +4

Alt+AltGr to do what meta should do is maybe easier, but doesnt adhere to the functional simplicity of employing one solution where it makes sense.  Thats what AltGr does, thats what meta does.

I use the meta as meta is meant to be used, a hack that isnt needed if you have dedicated things.

Dead-key deatrics is only a secondary option. It should be fully covered by +4. For those that it isnt, it should be either an altGr away, or altGr remap, or a lookup in the manual, whatever is the path of least resistance.

Some keyboards make no sense, and arent standard, like the space-cadet keyboard.

The earlier IBM keyboards, dont make sense, like model F,   their typewriters did, but thats because typing works. We must not do what the model F was to computers in making the model M into a mobile keyboard.

Still, since 1982 there has been a standard, for good or bad reason, some part of that makes sense. Things have connotations, same reason meta cant be imposed on a reduced typeset to emulate AltGr.

Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts   Shift+ctrl+letters may work now, but it will break in the future, because someone will try to get clever with it.

Is meta+backspace   and altGr+backspace acceptible for you as a power-user?  Would you remap  column-row  ctrl and alt to do it? Does that work? thoughts?

 

[bzar]

Do we need a poll on whether people think they will remap the keyboard to include non-english letter keys as primary functions or not? Maybe even with an added "I speak english as my first language" modifier to further break it down.

It seems you've hit a fundamental difference in assumptions. You can argue your positions on why people would or wouldn't (should or shouldn't) use a default layout or destructively remap it, but people are complex and do stuff for different reasons. Any argumentative conclusion will not necessarily reflect the reality.

Why don't you make a poll then?

I asked whether one is needed, stating my perception of the current state of the discussion. Based on the reaction of the most vocal parties one is not needed. I don't even attempt to steer the conversation, but merely provide my perspective on it.

 

[Saber]

Do we need a poll on whether people think they will remap the keyboard to include non-english letter keys as primary functions or not? Maybe even with an added "I speak english as my first language" modifier to further break it down.

It seems you've hit a fundamental difference in assumptions. You can argue your positions on why people would or wouldn't (should or shouldn't) use a default layout or destructively remap it, but people are complex and do stuff for different reasons. Any argumentative conclusion will not necessarily reflect the reality.

Why don't you make a poll then?

I asked whether one is needed, stating my perception of the current state of the discussion. Based on the reaction of the most vocal parties one is not needed. I don't even attempt to steer the conversation, but merely provide my perspective on it.

I guess then once someone sees whether it is important, after waiting long enough, they'll initiate a poll to find out what others do want.

 

[WizardStan]

Because if you want to type e.g. Shift-F1 without using shoulder buttons, you need to press Meta+Shift+Q, so Meta+Shift cannot be Caps Lock

Ah yes, that makes perfect sense. Awesome, carry on.

 

[_wb_]

Like we discussed on IRC, it's perhaps time to conclude and maybe start a poll in a new thread to vote amongst the current generation of proposals.

Here is a summary of my proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d0ffb999582eadef7871f5ab542a77fd

General features:

• Standard US-QWERTY keyboard, number row with standard shifted symbols !@#$%^&*()
• Comma (, <), period (. >) , slash (/ ?) and dash (-) are roughly in their standard positions, the other standard punctuation symbols (; : \ " ' ) have no dedicated keys but they're in locations that make some kind of sense
• New dedicated keys compared to Pandora keyboard: Tab (↹, bottom left), Delete (below backspace), Slash (/, to the right of L), Plus and Minus (+ -, at the new action buttons), Esc (very top left), Menu, Brightness, and Connectivity (wifi/3G/BT/hdmi)
• Fn is replaced by "Meta", which gives access to the missing keys but is implemented as a software modifier key so it can be remapped etc.
• Shoulder buttons are L1=Right Shift, R1=Right Ctrl like on the Pandora, plus L2=Right Meta, R2=Right Alt
• START is Left Alt, SELECT is Left Ctrl like on the Pandora, PYRA is (Left, but there is no Right) Super, the keyboard Shift and Meta keys are Left Shift and Left Meta and they are both sticky by default (meaning if you want to type a capital P, you can press Shift, release it, and then press P)
• Meta+number row gives most of the missing symbols from a full-size keyboard: ~ " ` ' = _ { } [ ]
• Meta+QWERTY row gives F1 to F12 (all nicely in a row)
• 5 media keys (Meta+ASDFG, for Previous, Play/Pause, Next, Mute, Stop)
• PrintScreen, ScrollLock and Pause/Break (Meta+JKL)

Support for international characters / layouts

• All non-language specific symbols from US-QWERTY and most European layouts are available in one thumb press, including even ° § £ € ² ³ µ
• All letters from Latin-alphabet languages are available in at most two thumb presses using dead key diacritics: the '(not so) hidden meaning' of the number row is ~ [tilde] " [umlaut] ` [grave] ' [acute] = [double_acute] ^ [circumflex] & [ligature] * [ring] ( [breve] ) [inverse breve]. To get the dead key diacritic, you press Meta+Shift+[symbol] (you can use L1+L2 for this, let's abbreviate L1+L2 to DL for DoubleLeft). So for example ü = DL+" U, ä = DL+" A, é = DL+' E, è = DL+` E, ê = DL+^ E, ē = DL+| E, ĕ = DL+( E, and so on. There's also Æ = L+& A, Œ = L+& O, ß = L+& S, and more like those. If you don't need diacritics, you can be blissfully unaware of this feature
• The compose key is at Meta+Esc by default. Most people will not need it since nearly everything is covered by the more efficient dead key diacritics. But if you want, you can use the Compose method as well. Since Shift and Meta are also on shoulder buttons, you can use the keyboard Shift or keyboard Meta for Compose if you want.
• There are keys to the right of P and L available for remapping for those who want to do that. For example, a German keyboard has Ü Ö Ä where Del Slash Shift are. If you can live without Del, and with only the shoulder button Shift (which is the most efficient Shift anyway), then you just have to move Slash to Meta+Slash to make room for Ö.

Further remarks:

• All keys have an unambiguous label so it is easy to refer to keys in a non-confusing way. Greek letters are used for the main action buttons (Delta, Pi, Omega, Chi, but you can call them Greek {Up,Left,Right,Down} or whatever you want) -- they resemble the Playstation button layout a bit. They are also labeled with Home/End/PgUp/PgDn icons.
• The + and - keys are useful in common shortcuts like Ctrl +- which is often used for zooming in and out (e.g. in browsers, office applications) or Ctrl Alt +- which can be used to set the X11 screen resolution
• There is no AltGr key, but since there are two Alt keys, you can obviously use one of them as AltGr if you need an extra modifier for an extra layer of symbols, just like on a normal keyboard. All of the AltGr-combinations are free to be mapped to whatever you want, since the default layout does not use AltGr.
• If the amount of symbols on the key labels is too intimidating, the ones on ASD-L and ZXC-M are optional and could be removed to make it look more elegant.
• The color of the Meta-labels is supposed to be fire red, referring to Pyra. It should be a relatively bright color to make sure that all the labels are easily readable, especially the labels of those special symbols that you rarely need.