It's the keyboard layout.

rygD · Apr 26, 2015

_wb_ said:
In fact, it reminds me a lot of some of my own proposals from 1 year ago

I really like some of the changes you have made over the last year.

_wb_ · Apr 26, 2015

rygD said:
_wb_ said:

In fact, it reminds me a lot of some of my own proposals from 1 year ago

Click to expand...

I really like some of the changes you have made over the last year.

Thank you. I agree. Looking back at those proposals I made back in early 2014 (before the physical layout was even known), I see quite some improvement too

_wb_ · Apr 26, 2015

Here is today's iteration of my proposal:

Labels as printed: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/65da9f539f88dfb52e151e0746f1e4b2

Unlabeled defaults in blue: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b781157950369581cf584baeacee4c61

lennaick · Apr 26, 2015

@comradekingu : red chars are unlabeled.

@_wb_ I did not expect that people remembre all deadkey but just the one they need to,

My layout is not good, but I this give me one big answer about « why many dead key are not availaible on layout proposal »

codifies · Apr 26, 2015

Sheeze this is like watching a clowder of cats trying to herd itself...

lennaick · Apr 26, 2015

After some reading ( I've time today $\o/$ ) I really want to see a layout with comradekingu suggestion ( http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ ) It'll might be easy to use with less (no?) hidden chars.

_wb_ · Apr 26, 2015

Lennaick said:
After some reading ( I've time today $\o/$ ) I really want to see a layout with comradekingu suggestion ( http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ ) It'll might be easy to use with less (no?) hidden chars.

In my layout you can do almost all of that without even using R_Alt as AltGr, just by using the available Meta and Shift-Meta keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e6d375173409cb2f173e7f47a99a25b3

comradekingu · Apr 26, 2015

Lennaick, that is my suggestion. Press ctrl+alt to invoke it. Problem is comma and dot keys, which have more than 1, so you'd need ctrl+alt+shift or ctrl+alt+altGr on those to decide between them.

Edit: here is a link to the latest one. It is a "meet in the middle" joint effort.

US symbols on numberrow now. Easier to reach AltGr with modifier-combinations to 5 6 7.

ible · Apr 29, 2015

Some hidden meta+shift keys which should be useful:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ae85197f2125bd76f7e188fb000fff74

(This is how it would be printed:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dcb735a3f720546a703c4f9cfe2c262d

Can't decide where the ^ diacritics should go, top or bottom. Have no real strong preference yet, either way.)

codifies · Apr 29, 2015

Observation: quite a lot of programming symbols {<[ etc on meta - maybe more on shift would be better?

ible · Apr 29, 2015

Do you have an example of what you'd change? I like putting most coding symbols on Meta so that muscle/brain memory associates Meta with coding symbols. It becomes more automatic, perhaps.

In line with this, and possibly something you might change, I put <> on Meta+,. instead of Shift+,.

I could switch this, but then I lose the muscle/brain memory, and I must change modifiers halfway through some common coding combinations. Also, <> don't appear in writing very much, which means having ;: on Shift (more common writing symbols, on a bigger button than Meta, at least on the shoulder) would be an advantage.

It also gives a nice reminder of where the German << quotation marks >> are.

codifies · Apr 29, 2015

<> appear in writing a great deal when its java or C or a wide range of other languages you are writing in.

"%^&*(){}@>< wouldn't these symbols be better on shift ? (In the same way as a traditional keyboard)

_wb_ · Apr 29, 2015

ible said:
Do you have an example of what you'd change? I like putting most coding symbols on Meta so that muscle/brain memory associates Meta with coding symbols. It becomes more automatic, perhaps.

In line with this, and possibly something you might change, I put <> on Meta+,. instead of Shift+,.

I could switch this, but then I lose the muscle/brain memory, and I must change modifiers halfway through some common coding combinations. Also, <> don't appear in writing very much, which means having ;: on Shift (more common writing symbols, on a bigger button than Meta, at least on the shoulder) would be an advantage.

It also gives a nice reminder of where the German << quotation marks >> are.

In my mind ; : are just as much "coding symbols" as < >, so I don't have a strong reason to deviate from the US-QWERTY way (< > on Shift+, .).

Most of the shift+number symbols are also more frequently used in coding than in text, so I can't really mentally map Meta to coding and Shift to text or something like that.

Here is a list of symbols sorted by frequency: http://mdickens.me/typing/theory-of-letter-frequency.html

These are the orders he comes up with (where "Programming" is C, Java, Perl and Ruby, which is of course a rather arbitrary choice of languages)

Prose: e t a o i n h s r d l u m w c y f g , p b . v k ' " - ; ! ? x j q : z _ < > ) ( 1 2 0 4 3 5 9 8 6 7 * [ ] + & / } { % @ $ = ~
Casual: e t a o i n s r h l d c u m g y f p w b . , v k 0 - ' x ) ( 1 j 2 : q " / 5 ! ? z 3 4 6 8 7 9 % [ ] * = + | _ ; \ > $ # ^ & @ < ~ { } `
Programming: e t a r i s n o l c d _ p u f m ( ) g h ; b , = . v x y * " k w - 0 / $ > { } 1 : ' \ 2 q [ ] j & + z < 3 | @ # 4 ! 8 5 6 9 7 % ? ~ ^ `
Formal: e t a i o n s r h l d c u f m p g y w b , v . k - x " ; 1 j q 0 2 ' ) ( z : 9 [ ] 3 4 5 6 8 7 ? ` _ / ! & ^ + % = { * } | ~ > # < @ $
News: e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ( ) $ ; | ? / ! & ] [ % @ _ > < * = + #

As an overall weighted list, he has the following sequence:

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \

Now if you look at that list, I think the most important thing is to have dedicated keys for the high frequency keys, or standard shifted keys like on a regular keyboard, but have the Meta-keys mostly for less frequent symbols. Using some color-coding:

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \ (normal full keyboard)

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \ (my main proposal)

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \ (Saber v1.2)

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \ (comradekingu)

where green indicates primary keys and orange indicates shifted keys and blue indicates Meta keys.

(also I have underlined the prefix of frequent symbols that completely coincide with a normal full keyboard)

I would argue that a good thing about my proposal is that it has - and ' as primary keys (and " as a shifted key as usual), which is quite important because those three punctuation symbols (' " -) are more important than four letters (X J Z Q) and all of the numbers (except 0 for '). Not having ` { } ~ \ as normal keys (primary or shifted) is not a big deal, since they're the least frequent ones. Another conclusion from the above is that having + as a dedicated key is not very important.

Grench · Apr 29, 2015

_wb_ said:
Lennaick said:

After some reading ( I've time today $\o/$ ) I really want to see a layout with comradekingu suggestion ( http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ ) It'll might be easy to use with less (no?) hidden chars.

Click to expand...

In my layout you can do almost all of that without even using R_Alt as AltGr, just by using the available Meta and Shift-Meta keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e6d375173409cb2f173e7f47a99a25b3

I do like this one - it makes some very well thought through compromises. That isn't a criticism, ALL of the layouts must make compromises.

There are a few bits that still annoy me on it though.

Ins and Del belong with PgUp, PgDn, Home, End. Putting + and - on the 5th and 6th game pad buttons is an interesting work around for not printing shift+Fn keys.

Unfortunately, the entire layout ignores DosBox and QEMU.

True right Alt as AltGr is not possible with this layout.

It isn't clear how diacritics or compose would work - that may have already been discussed.

Alt and Ctl on the keyboard require a Vulcan death grip to do anything with.

Is it functional? Yes. Ideal? Mmm... that is a -lot- of compromises.

comradekingu · Apr 29, 2015

[ ] are primary on this, the point of which isnt to reinstate english functionality, its to bring international keyboard-functionality to the mix.

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \ (comradekingu)

I put combo-clicks in light-green to give a more real presentation. Whats missing here is öäü, or equivalent things that belong in the first part of this composium,( which takes the place of { } < > [ ] )

ible · Apr 30, 2015

I still don't understand your layout:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/defa1de156b3f65598ab8ce45e2ac82b

The symbol to a left on a key is the shiftmod.
The symbol in the middle is normalclick
The symbol on the right is AltGr or meta for F keys

For your number keys, you have, e.g.:

1 ! |
2 @ "
3 # '

So, reading your instructions:

key on left is shiftmod (1 2 3) -- you need shift to hit a number key
symbol in middle is normal click (! @ #) -- you get what are regularly shift keys by not pressing shift
Symbol on right is AltGr (| " ') -- that makes a little sense, except for the "or meta for F keys"

I suppose you mean "or meta for F11 and F12". There are no other meta/Fn combos, right?

My concern with this layout is that it's hard to hit F7 through F10 -- not that I need those much (I typically only use F11). Your right thumb needs to be in two places at once to get F7 - F10. And that the instructions are confusing. I think (hope) you mean the other way around for the normalclick and shiftmod symbols.

comradekingu · Apr 30, 2015

You got the right idea. Depending on whether the F-keys are printed or not, the documentation will have to be updated.

This is my preffered list

Dont print at all. Instructions can be put in conky or on desktop wallpaper.

Print only F11 and F12, rest can be as a colour on the numbers to remember.

Print every single F-key on QWERT, in different colour. Ugly and invasive.

Since it isnt possible to have a continous line of F-keys that are on numbers, printing F-keys will always be sub-optimal.

Printing the numbers in a different colour is both ugly and a bit messy. The reason why the letters arent on the left, is because they are the shiftmods. They are big versals, in position 2.

F7-F10 is cumbersome. It becomes a problem with combos. I havent used any of those either, so i dont know. F1 F5 F4 and F11 are the ones i know of a use for.

DrHAX · May 1, 2015

As somebody who writes with a UK layout keyboard (Yet is an american.) I've grown use to not dealing with labels. Hell, I've also used a swedish keyboard layout for a bit just to see how different it is..But I must say I do like _wb_'s layout from a writing stand point. Not having labels doesn't bother me. Hell you should see my netbook I use to write on.. its keyboard has keys without labels on them.. I wore them clean off... So keyboard feel has alot to do with it.. (Also why I stuck with the Uk keyboard layout shift 2 for " just is easier on my hand I weld left handed..) So _wb_'s layout I really like so far. It seems more natural to me at least.

ible · May 1, 2015

From some private communication with comradekingu: on his layout the number keys are top layer, and standard US symbols on the number row are shifted, and he breaks AltGr functionality for the numbers in order to get all the symbols on the keyboard, without cluttering up the alphabet keys with Meta or modified AltGr functionality.

Also his Meta key, which functions like a Fn key to get all the F1-F12, is a software modifier.

_wb_ · May 1, 2015

It would be really helpful if more community members would indicate their opinions by adding a column with their weights/priorities to the big table. Or add rows if properties are missing. Anyone who cares about the Pyra keyboard should do this little exercise imo.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit?usp=sharing

It's the keyboard layout.

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