It's the keyboard layout.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Silent-Hunter, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    I have no strong opinion on that.

    I had | at P because that's a better spot and pipe is perhaps slightly more important than backslash, and also because P could stand for Pipe. Another option would be to have [ ] { } \ on GHJKL, so \ and | are both on the right.

    One minor advantage of Shift Meta Z in that order, is that slash (Meta+Z) becomes a thumb-mashable combo. Having Shift+Z as an easy combo is not very useful.

    I'm just giving some reasons for keeping it like it is. But I don't have a strong opinion on the order of Shift and Meta, and the exact positions of [ ] { } \ |  (we could even put them in a row on Meta+FGHJKL, which frees up P for people who want to map £ there (P for Pound).
     
  2. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    That's the problem with having three shifts: they can't all be different. If you make both the right keyboard Shift and the shoulder Shift an RSHIFT, then they're indistinguishable. That would mean that in a game which uses shoulder buttons and the keyboard (e.g. keyboard for chatting), you would get unexpected behavior when using the right keyboard Shift. So I guess it's a lesser evil to have the two keyboard shifts indistinguishable.

    Perhaps it's possible to let the three shifts be different keys anyway, and let the one that is not LSHIFT or RSHIFT also behave like a Shift key in software.

    Anyway, I think it's best to have only two shifts. If one keyboard shift is not enough for you, then make it sticky.
     
  3. Rockthesmurf

    Rockthesmurf Advanced Member

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    Could I ask a question (possibly already covered), on a desktop PC, in order to enter characters which aren't on the keyboard, for example, on a enGB/enUS keyboard, the é character, what is the typical way of doing it. Or, potentially more specifically, is the typical way different based on whether you are using *nix, Windows or OSX? I have only really entered English and Japanese, for Japanese, on a Windows PC, I hit Alt + ` to switch between 'normal' input, hiragana, katakana and kanji. When in the Japanese modes, you just type the English letters (for example you type wa and you get わ or  ワ depending which mode you are in), and as you type words, it offers you the kanji (there are multiple, so you press space and then select the appropriate one from a list). I just Googled for how this works for French letters, and one of the first articles http://french.about.com/od/writing/ss/typeaccents.htm mentions various different ways, based on OS.
     
  4. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    There are many ways.

    If you're French, there's a good chance that you're using an AZERTY keyboard with a dedicated é key. So that's one way. If you don't have an actual AZERTY keyboard, you can still blind-type AZERTY on any other ISO keyboard, because the physical layout is the same (just the labels are rather different, especially on the number row).

    Another way is having a keyboard with a so-called dead key diacritic for the acute accent, which means you press that key and then E (or Shift-E) to get é (or É). That's a bit more general, because with just one extra key, you can make áÁéÉíÍóÓúÚýÝ.

    Another way is to define AltGr keys for the special letters you frequently need.

    Yet another way, at least in Linux, is the Compose method. E.g. Compose ' e produces é. This method is a bit cumbersome, but at least it's better than having to go to some "Insert Special Symbol" menu or something. I particularly like it for rarely needed symbols like œ (Compose o e), µ (Compose m u), ≥ (Compose > =) and so on, because the combinations are quite easy to remember and there is quite a lot of stuff you can input like that.

    And finally, if anything else fails, you can always enter Unicode numbers. Ctrl-Shift-U <number> Enter. The Unicode Character 'LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE' has code U+00E9, so Ctrl-Shift-U E9 Enter produces é. This is of course a very non-practical method.
     
  5. Neelix

    Neelix Insecticidal Maniac

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    In practical terms for a US standard keyboard this is most readily accomplished (if you need to do it regularly) by switching to the US-International layout. I'm not entirely sure what the options are in Windows, but in Gnome you can choose between options for the dead keys in the layout to be true dead keys, or to be able to use them as dead keys by holding AltGR. (the two methods show up as different variations of the US-International layout in Gnome)

    If I want to enter é I just hold AltGr and press e. If I want to enter è I hold AltGr and press ` then I press e.

    - Neelix
     
  6. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    Steven Craft:  http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17881-its-the-keyboard-layout/page-24#entry378044/URL]

    What wb forgot to mention, was the dedicated letters on number row for french.

    And how the ^ and é are in the fuller layout.  (ive been calling ^ compose, but i realize now its called dead-key)

    ^ needs shift and AltGr to function as intended.

    Alternate Graphics symbols arent defined by the user, they come predefined depending on region btw.

    The alternative to AlternateGraphics-AltGr, where you use it as third level shift and "hidden symbols" is compose-AltGr. Since that isnt feasible because of limited amount of buttons, the other standard way of doing it is ctrl+alt. 

    Or you could spend a key on it, meaning its not possible to do with shoulders. They can also be printed, but since some of them are dead-only in print form, that gets ugly really quick.

    Meta you can do what you want with, except for where/(if) you want F-keys to be present.

    Edit: I made a universal "ways to type" too, but i cant find it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  7. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    Seems a waste having duplicate shifts where those keys are so scarce, I'd say dispite not being a shoulder keyboard fan that a better compromise would be a left shift on the keyboard and right on a shoulder (ideally a right one!)
     
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  8. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    That's what most layout proposals have, and also how it is on the Pandora: L_SHIFT on the keyboard, R_SHIFT as a shoulder button.
     
  9. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    Does anyone strongly disagree with this (and what is your reasoning) ?

    Is this a single point of consensus we can all work into our pet layouts?


    [Edit] that and qwerty (maybe US? Or is that reaching too far?!)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2015
  10. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    You start with a regular keyboard, look for ways to improve it /adapt to two thumb typing. Then you make every possible layout where you see how little you can remove.

    Then you need the feedback needed to make sure you didnt miss anything. Then you need to prove your concepts work.

    All the while keeping in mind there is an audience to cater to.

    What shift is where, is irrelevant, both do the same thing, and they are marked exactly the same.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2015
  11. TrashyMG

    TrashyMG Sarcasm Dispenser Staff Member

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    I don't have an issue with it, mostly because in the end it doesn't really matter as shift being on a shoulder button itself is bizarre in it's own way, not to mention Start and Select being Alt and Ctrl. 


    Would it have made more sense? maybe... does it matter in the end?, not really... Does leaving certian Pandoraisms in the keyboard layout make sense? Maybe to save some time for developers migrating Pandora applications or keep a sense of familiarity with the current base of users perhaps... But we're an easily adaptable group, so who knows...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2015
  12. Neelix

    Neelix Insecticidal Maniac

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    There's something to be said with sticking with what works. The Pandora gave us a chance to find both things that work and things that don't work in a device of this form factor, and it would be foolish not to learn from that and apply the lessons learnt to the Pyra. Modifiers on the shoulder buttons has proven to be something that works well and should be kept.

    - Neelix
     
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  13. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    Starting out with the pandora keyboard and designing from there is broken because the pandora keyboard is. If you dont want to look at any arguments. It can with some luck be a little bit better than something that isnt a ultimate fail, but beyond that, its illogical.

    I wish that was the part we could agree on instead of pretending pandora-layout is good in that it, and any amount of support argumentation, does not deal with issues.
     
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  14. TrashyMG

    TrashyMG Sarcasm Dispenser Staff Member

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    My only complaints with it has nothing to do with the placement of the shifts, alt or ctrl keys/buttons. where symbols are placed are a totally different matter.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2015
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  15. Neelix

    Neelix Insecticidal Maniac

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    I never said we should base the design around the Pandora keyboard, I said we should learn from the Pandora keyboard. While the Pandora keyboard certainly has it's failings, it does actually work pretty well for the most part, so we need to understand what aspects of it do work, and try and work those aspects into the new layout. This principle also applies the other way around, learning from what did not work and trying to avoid those pitfalls.

    - Neelix
     
  16. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    Yes, very true. I just wanted to state that there is no shortcut to it.

    If bad things make their way from the pandora-layout onto a layout, someone else is bound to adopt it. And the consideration is really never made.

    Not in how the pandora-layout was made, not in lifting it ever since.

    And then you have a whole bunch of meta-design not based on anything.

    "I think ED thinks this is better" "I feel" "No really, this is ok" "no, this is different" "Cant be 100%, lets make it 0%" "If arbitrary A preface, then arbitrary conclusion B makes sense"-type of argumentation.

     The most glaring issue is that the pandora layout has good reason to be bad, using all its flaws again would be a tremendous oportunity wasted.

    Instead i think this makes sense.

    Who is going to use it, how. What do they expect vs. what is most efficient. Luckily the two coincide most of the time, and all is all inclusive, but then its hard to make things fit.

    So we have to consider the options given in the physical layout. The hard work there has been done, you can find any leading concept already made.

    Luckily going with all of these, as they exist on a real keyboard, means the least functionality is broken.

    How to not exclude, and include at the same time.

    Just by making this assesment, you are aiming at the biggest demographic. Stop at sensible. The rest you get by allowing for sane modification.  

    Recursive remapping or moving of dedicated keys where they dont belong, is not sane nor modifiable.

    From what i can grasp the agreed upon factors is that english comes before all else. Which is fine, its a default to work from.

    It just _doesnt_ have to make it unusable for everyone else. If that issue isnt fixed, it will keep being a returning concern. It must be resolved.

    It can be better for both parties, where this preference is only a slight benefit for English.

    Two design-metrics worthy of mention is trying to keep everything as easy to use as possible, and as de-cluttered as it can possibly be. Nobody loses with that. And they inherrently coincide.

    And as a sidenote to this last point, we agreed that symbols for anything but shift enter and backspace, doesnt work.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2015
  17. lennaick

    lennaick Member

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    It look like the keyboard layout editor bug on save…

    So here is the ROW DATA of my first try of a proposal with all dead key.

    I know there is many thing I can move for a better layout but I didn't have the time to do more than this :

    Code:
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    [{y:0.25,x:13.75,c:"#202020",t:"#ffffff",a:5,f:4,w:6.5,h:1.25},"Pyra Keyboard Layout v1.0 by Lennaick\n<font color=\"#ff4400\">This color denotes an unlabeled Shift + AltGr value.\n\n\nBased on Saber layout\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> This color indicates a labeled AltGr value."],
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    [{y:-0.5500000000000003,a:7,f:5,w:0.8,h:0.8},"◁\n\n\n\nLeft",{x:0.8,w:0.8,h:0.8},"▷\n\n\n\nRight",{x:8.25,f:8,w:0.8,h:0.8},"A\n\n\n\nHome",{x:0.8000000000000007,w:0.8,h:0.8},"B\n\n\n\nEnd"],
    [{y:-0.9500000000000002,x:6.1,a:5,f:2,w:0.95,h:0.5},"<small>SELECT\n\n\n\nCtrl"],
    [{y:-0.9999999999999991,x:13.75,c:"#202020",t:"#ffffff",a:0,f:3,w:9,h:4.75},"Dead Key Diacritics:\n<ol type=none> <li>dead_circumflex is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + 6</font> <li>dead_grave is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + n</font> <li>dead_acute is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + m</font> <li>dead_tilde is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + n</font> <li>dead_macron is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + m</font> <li>dead_breve is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + w</font> <li>dead_abovedot is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + i</font> <li>dead_diaeresis is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + i</font> <li>dead_hook is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + d</font> <li>dead_abovering is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + a</font> <li>dead_doubleacute is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + o</font> <li>dead_caron is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + v</font> <li>dead_horn is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + k</font> <li>dead_belowdot is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + j</font> <li>dead_belowcomma is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + c</font> <li>dead_cedilla is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + c</font> <li>dead_ogonek is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + f</font>"],
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    [{y:-0.9000000000000004,x:10.25,f:7,w:0.7,h:0.7},"<b>−\n\n\n\nDel"],
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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2015
  18. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,962
    You exceeded the character-limit on the editor.

    There is a less visually invasive way of doing it http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/

    ED specifically said this about visual dead-keys.

    If you have a large chunk of text you want to hide, use

     text you want to hide  [/s p o i l e r]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2016
  19. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,350
    Location:
    Everywhere
    Yes, hiding that would be nice.
     
  20. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Messages:
    5,387
    Location:
    Brussels, Belgium
    Lennaick: how are people supposed to remember all those Shift+AltGr actions?

    Also, you have a lot of dead diacritics, but why, really? Circumflex, acute, grave, diaeresis, caron and ogonek are the only ones really useful as a dead diacritic, if you ask me.

    Unless you are writing transcriptions of non-Latin languages, some obscure languages, the phonetic alphabet, Hungarian, Vietnamese or something like that, the other dead diacritics are not very useful, or only useful on one specific letter. Tilde is mostly just for ñ, ring for å, cedilla for ç (or you can combine it with ogonek and comma below, because who cares about the difference anyway).

    So I think you went a bit over the top with the dead diacritics. And still you can't input Ø Æ Œ Þ Ð, for example.

    Why ij ? Is there anyone who still wants that as a one-character letter as opposed to just ij ?

    Anyway, I appreciate the effort, but it just looks way too arbitrary and complicated to me. In fact, it reminds me a lot of some of my own proposals from 1 year ago ;)
     

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