It's the keyboard layout.

Neelix · Apr 25, 2015

In practical terms for a US standard keyboard this is most readily accomplished (if you need to do it regularly) by switching to the US-International layout. I'm not entirely sure what the options are in Windows, but in Gnome you can choose between options for the dead keys in the layout to be true dead keys, or to be able to use them as dead keys by holding AltGR. (the two methods show up as different variations of the US-International layout in Gnome)

If I want to enter é I just hold AltGr and press e. If I want to enter è I hold AltGr and press ` then I press e.

- Neelix

comradekingu · Apr 25, 2015

Steven Craft: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17881-its-the-keyboard-layout/page-24#entry378044/URL]

What wb forgot to mention, was the dedicated letters on number row for french.

And how the ^ and é are in the fuller layout. (ive been calling ^ compose, but i realize now its called dead-key)

^ needs shift and AltGr to function as intended.

Alternate Graphics symbols arent defined by the user, they come predefined depending on region btw.

The alternative to AlternateGraphics-AltGr, where you use it as third level shift and "hidden symbols" is compose-AltGr. Since that isnt feasible because of limited amount of buttons, the other standard way of doing it is ctrl+alt.

Or you could spend a key on it, meaning its not possible to do with shoulders. They can also be printed, but since some of them are dead-only in print form, that gets ugly really quick.

Meta you can do what you want with, except for where/(if) you want F-keys to be present.

Edit: I made a universal "ways to type" too, but i cant find it.

codifies · Apr 25, 2015

_wb_ said:
That's the problem with having three shifts: they can't all be different. If you make both the right keyboard Shift and the shoulder Shift an RSHIFT, then they're indistinguishable. That would mean that in a game which uses shoulder buttons and the keyboard (e.g. keyboard for chatting), you would get unexpected behavior when using the right keyboard Shift. So I guess it's a lesser evil to have the two keyboard shifts indistinguishable.

Perhaps it's possible to let the three shifts be different keys anyway, and let the one that is not LSHIFT or RSHIFT also behave like a Shift key in software.

Anyway, I think it's best to have only two shifts. If one keyboard shift is not enough for you, then make it sticky.

Seems a waste having duplicate shifts where those keys are so scarce, I'd say dispite not being a shoulder keyboard fan that a better compromise would be a left shift on the keyboard and right on a shoulder (ideally a right one!)

_wb_ · Apr 25, 2015

That's what most layout proposals have, and also how it is on the Pandora: L_SHIFT on the keyboard, R_SHIFT as a shoulder button.

codifies · Apr 25, 2015

_wb_ said:
That's what most layout proposals have, and also how it is on the Pandora: L_SHIFT on the keyboard, R_SHIFT as a shoulder button.

Does anyone strongly disagree with this (and what is your reasoning) ?

Is this a single point of consensus we can all work into our pet layouts?

[Edit] that and qwerty (maybe US? Or is that reaching too far?!)

comradekingu · Apr 25, 2015

You start with a regular keyboard, look for ways to improve it /adapt to two thumb typing. Then you make every possible layout where you see how little you can remove.

Then you need the feedback needed to make sure you didnt miss anything. Then you need to prove your concepts work.

All the while keeping in mind there is an audience to cater to.

What shift is where, is irrelevant, both do the same thing, and they are marked exactly the same.

TrashyMG · Apr 25, 2015

codifies said:
Does anyone strongly disagree with this (and what is your reasoning) ?

I don't have an issue with it, mostly because in the end it doesn't really matter as shift being on a shoulder button itself is bizarre in it's own way, not to mention Start and Select being Alt and Ctrl.

Would it have made more sense? maybe... does it matter in the end?, not really... Does leaving certian Pandoraisms in the keyboard layout make sense? Maybe to save some time for developers migrating Pandora applications or keep a sense of familiarity with the current base of users perhaps... But we're an easily adaptable group, so who knows...

Neelix · Apr 25, 2015

There's something to be said with sticking with what works. The Pandora gave us a chance to find both things that work and things that don't work in a device of this form factor, and it would be foolish not to learn from that and apply the lessons learnt to the Pyra. Modifiers on the shoulder buttons has proven to be something that works well and should be kept.

- Neelix

comradekingu · Apr 25, 2015

Starting out with the pandora keyboard and designing from there is broken because the pandora keyboard is. If you dont want to look at any arguments. It can with some luck be a little bit better than something that isnt a ultimate fail, but beyond that, its illogical.

I wish that was the part we could agree on instead of pretending pandora-layout is good in that it, and any amount of support argumentation, does not deal with issues.

TrashyMG · Apr 25, 2015

comradekingu said:
Starting out with the pandora keyboard and designing from there is broken because the pandora keyboard is. If you dont want to look at any arguments. It can with some luck be a little bit better than something that isnt a ultimate fail, but beyond that, its illogical.

I wish that was the part we could agree on instead of pretending pandora-layout is good in that it, and any amount of support argumentation, does not deal with issues.

My only complaints with it has nothing to do with the placement of the shifts, alt or ctrl keys/buttons. where symbols are placed are a totally different matter.

Neelix · Apr 25, 2015

comradekingu said:
Starting out with the pandora keyboard and designing from there is broken because the pandora keyboard is. If you dont want to look at any arguments. It can with some luck be a little bit better than something that isnt a ultimate fail, but beyond that, its illogical.

I wish that was the part we could agree on instead of pretending pandora-layout is good in that it, and any amount of support argumentation, does not deal with issues.

I never said we should base the design around the Pandora keyboard, I said we should learn from the Pandora keyboard. While the Pandora keyboard certainly has it's failings, it does actually work pretty well for the most part, so we need to understand what aspects of it do work, and try and work those aspects into the new layout. This principle also applies the other way around, learning from what did not work and trying to avoid those pitfalls.

- Neelix

comradekingu · Apr 25, 2015

Yes, very true. I just wanted to state that there is no shortcut to it.

If bad things make their way from the pandora-layout onto a layout, someone else is bound to adopt it. And the consideration is really never made.

Not in how the pandora-layout was made, not in lifting it ever since.

And then you have a whole bunch of meta-design not based on anything.

"I think ED thinks this is better" "I feel" "No really, this is ok" "no, this is different" "Cant be 100%, lets make it 0%" "If arbitrary A preface, then arbitrary conclusion B makes sense"-type of argumentation.

The most glaring issue is that the pandora layout has good reason to be bad, using all its flaws again would be a tremendous oportunity wasted.

Instead i think this makes sense.

Who is going to use it, how. What do they expect vs. what is most efficient. Luckily the two coincide most of the time, and all is all inclusive, but then its hard to make things fit.

So we have to consider the options given in the physical layout. The hard work there has been done, you can find any leading concept already made.

Luckily going with all of these, as they exist on a real keyboard, means the least functionality is broken.

How to not exclude, and include at the same time.

Just by making this assesment, you are aiming at the biggest demographic. Stop at sensible. The rest you get by allowing for sane modification.

Recursive remapping or moving of dedicated keys where they dont belong, is not sane nor modifiable.

From what i can grasp the agreed upon factors is that english comes before all else. Which is fine, its a default to work from.

It just _doesnt_ have to make it unusable for everyone else. If that issue isnt fixed, it will keep being a returning concern. It must be resolved.

It can be better for both parties, where this preference is only a slight benefit for English.

Two design-metrics worthy of mention is trying to keep everything as easy to use as possible, and as de-cluttered as it can possibly be. Nobody loses with that. And they inherrently coincide.

And as a sidenote to this last point, we agreed that symbols for anything but shift enter and backspace, doesnt work.

lennaick · Apr 26, 2015

It look like the keyboard layout editor bug on save…

So here is the ROW DATA of my first try of a proposal with all dead key.

I know there is many thing I can move for a better layout but I didn't have the time to do more than this :

Code:

{backcolor:"#777777"},
[{y:0.25,x:13.75,c:"#202020",t:"#ffffff",a:5,f:4,w:6.5,h:1.25},"Pyra Keyboard Layout v1.0 by Lennaick\n<font color=\"#ff4400\">This color denotes an unlabeled Shift + AltGr value.\n\n\nBased on Saber layout\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> This color indicates a labeled AltGr value."],
[{y:-0.9,x:0.5,c:"#000000",a:4,f:6,f2:5,w:1.5,h:0.6},"L2\n\n<font color=\"#888888\">AltGr",{x:8.75,f:5,f2:6,w:1.5,h:0.6},"<font color=\"#888888\">R.Alt\n\nR2"],
[{y:-0.25,f:6,f2:5,w:1.75,h:0.6},"L1\n\n<font color=\"#888888\">R.Shift",{x:9.25,f:5,f2:6,w:1.75,h:0.6},"<font color=\"#888888\">R.Ctrl\n\nR1"],
[{y:-0.6000000000000001,x:13.75,c:"#202020",a:1,f:3,w:6.5,h:2},"☀-, ☀+ are Display Brightness.<br>Key -, Key+ are Keyboard Backlight.\nPau, Prt, Scr are Pause/Break, Print Screen, and Scroll Lock.\n\n\n\n\nNub2 Up is Double Click, Nub2 Down is Center Click, Nub2 Left is Left Click, and Nub2 Right is Right Click."],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.5,c:"#000000",f:4,w:0.95,h:0.6},"<big>☀-\n\n\n\n\nkey-",{x:0.20000000000000018,w:0.95,h:0.6},"<big>☀+\n\n\n\n\nkey+",{x:0.5,a:3,f:3,w:0.95,h:0.6},"Power",{x:0.5000000000000098,a:1,f:4,w:0.95,h:0.6},"BT\n\n\n\n\nusb",{x:0.14999999999999858,w:0.95,h:0.6},"Wifi\n\n\n\n\n4G"],
[{y:-0.10000000000000009,x:0.8,t:"#ffffff; color:#888888",a:7,f:5,w:0.8,h:0.8},"△\n\n\n\nUp",{x:8.65,f:9,w:0.7,h:0.7},"<b>+\n\n\n\nIns",{x:0.5,a:5,f:8,w:0.8,h:0.8},"Y\n\n\n\nPgUp"],
[{y:-0.8999999999999999,x:6.1,f:2,w:0.95,h:0.5},"START\n\n\n\nAlt"],
[{y:-0.75,x:3.5,f:3,w:1.75,h:1.5},"Nub1: Mouse Movement\n<font color=\"#888888\"> Right Click (Center)",{x:2.5700000000000003,w:1.75,h:1.5},"Nub2: Mouse Buttons\n<font color=\"#888888\"> Left Click (Center)"],
[{y:-0.5500000000000003,a:7,f:5,w:0.8,h:0.8},"◁\n\n\n\nLeft",{x:0.8,w:0.8,h:0.8},"▷\n\n\n\nRight",{x:8.25,f:8,w:0.8,h:0.8},"A\n\n\n\nHome",{x:0.8000000000000007,w:0.8,h:0.8},"B\n\n\n\nEnd"],
[{y:-0.9500000000000002,x:6.1,a:5,f:2,w:0.95,h:0.5},"<small>SELECT\n\n\n\nCtrl"],
[{y:-0.9999999999999991,x:13.75,c:"#202020",t:"#ffffff",a:0,f:3,w:9,h:4.75},"Dead Key Diacritics:\n<ol type=none> <li>dead_circumflex is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + 6</font> <li>dead_grave is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + n</font> <li>dead_acute is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + m</font> <li>dead_tilde is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + n</font> <li>dead_macron is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + m</font> <li>dead_breve is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + w</font> <li>dead_abovedot is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + i</font> <li>dead_diaeresis is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + i</font> <li>dead_hook is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + d</font> <li>dead_abovering is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + a</font> <li>dead_doubleacute is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + o</font> <li>dead_caron is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + v</font> <li>dead_horn is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + k</font> <li>dead_belowdot is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + j</font> <li>dead_belowcomma is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + c</font> <li>dead_cedilla is <font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr + c</font> <li>dead_ogonek is <font color=\"#f40\">Shift + AltGr + f</font>"],
[{y:-0.2500000000000009,x:0.8,c:"#000000",t:"#ffffff; color:#888888",a:7,f:5,w:0.8,h:0.8},"▽\n\n\n\nDown",{x:4.5,a:5,f:2,w:0.95,h:0.55},"MENU\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00ace6\"> SysRq",{x:4.399999999999999,f:8,w:0.8,h:0.8},"X\n\n\n\nPgDn"],
[{y:-0.9000000000000004,x:10.25,f:7,w:0.7,h:0.7},"<b>−\n\n\n\nDel"],
[{y:0.10000000000000053,x:0.55,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6",a:0,f:5,w:0.95,h:0.6},"1\n\n!<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ¡\n\n\nF1",{x:0.15000000000000013,w:0.95,h:0.6},"2\n\n<sup>@\n\n\nF2",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"3\n\n<sup>#\n\n\nF3",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"4\n\n<sup>$\n\n\nF4",{x:0.15000000000001013,w:0.95,h:0.6},"5\n\n<sup>% <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ‰\n\n\nF5",{x:0.1500000000000048,w:0.95,h:0.6},"6\n\n^ <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̂\n\n\nF6",{x:0.1500000000000048,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"7\n\n<sup>& <font color=\"#ff4400\">“\n\n\nF7",{x:0.14999999999999858,w:0.95,h:0.6},"8\n\n<big>* <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ”\n\n\nF8",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"9\n\n<sup>( <font color=\"#ff4400\"><big> ‘\n\n\nF9",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"0\n\n<sup>) <font color=\"#ff4400\"><big> ’\n\n\nF10",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",a:2,w:0.95,h:0.6},"Back"],
[{y:-0.2999999999999998,x:0.1,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6;",a:0,w:0.9,h:0.6},"Tab",{x:0.10000000000000009,f:6,w:0.95,h:0.6},"Q\n\n\n\n\nEsc",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"W<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̆\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"><sub>[",{x:0.1499999999999999,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;#ff4400",w:0.95,h:0.6},"E <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>€\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<sub><font color=\"#00bfff\">]",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"R <font color=\"#ff4400\">«\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<sub><font color=\"#00bfff\">{",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"T <font color=\"#ff4400\">»\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<sub><font color=\"#00bfff\">}",{x:0.15000000000000213,w:0.95,h:0.6},"Y <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>¥",{x:0.15000000000000924,w:0.95,h:0.6},"U\n\n<font color=\"#ff4400\"><big>\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>\"",{x:0.1500000000000039,w:0.95,h:0.6},"I <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>◌̇\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"><sub>◌̈",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"O <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̋\n\n\n\n\nF11",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"P<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> prt\n\n\n\n\nF12",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",f:5,w:0.95,h:0.6},"Enter"],
[{y:-0.2999999999999998,x:0.43,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6; color=#ff4400;",w:1.1,h:0.6},"L.Shift\n\n\n\n\nCaps",{x:0.1200000000000001,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",f:6,w:0.95,h:0.6},"A <font color=\"#F40\"> <sup>◌̊\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>'",{x:0.1499999999999999,w:0.95,h:0.6},"S<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> §\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>ß",{x:0.1499999999999999,w:0.99,h:0.6},"D <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̉\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>+",{x:0.11000000000000032,w:0.95,h:0.6},"F <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̨\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>-",{x:0.15000000000001013,w:0.95,h:0.6},"G\n\n<sup><font color=\"#ff4400\">|<font color=\"#00bfff\"><br>/",{x:0.1500000000000048,w:0.95,h:0.6},"H\n\n<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> –\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"><sub> =",{x:0.1500000000000039,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"J<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̣\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>ĳ",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"K <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ◌̛\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>~",{x:0.15000000000000036,a:4,w:0.95,h:0.6},"L<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>scr\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub> €",{x:0.09999999999998188,f:5,w:1.1,h:0.6},"L.Shift"],
[{y:-0.2999999999999998,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6;",a:0,w:0.95,h:0.6},",<sup>< </sup><font color=\"#00ace6\">;\n\n<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ≤",{x:0.15000000000000013,w:0.95,h:0.6},".<sup>></sup><font color=\"#00ace6\"> :\n\n<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ≥",{x:0.15000000000000036,t:"#ffffff; color:#ff4400;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"Z <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup> ə\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>\\",{x:0.1499999999999999,w:0.95,h:0.6},"X <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>¿\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>?",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"C<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>◌̦\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"><sub>◌̧",{x:0.15000000000000036,w:0.95,h:0.6},"V <font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>◌̌\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>_",{x:0.15000000000000213,w:0.9,h:0.6},"B<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>—\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"> <sub>|",{x:0.20000000000000906,f:6,w:0.95,h:0.6},"N<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>◌̃\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"><sub>◌́",{x:0.1500000000000039,t:"#ffffff; color:#00ace6;",w:0.95,h:0.6},"M<font color=\"#ff4400\"><sup>◌̄\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<font color=\"#00bfff\"><sub> ◌̀",{x:0.15000000000000036,f:5,w:2,h:0.6},"<font color=\"#ff4400\"><b>\n\n\n\n\nCompose\nSpace",{x:0.1999999999999993,a:1,w:0.95,h:0.6},"<sup><font color=\"#00bfff\">AltGr\n\n\n\n\nLock"]

comradekingu · Apr 26, 2015

You exceeded the character-limit on the editor.

There is a less visually invasive way of doing it http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/

ED specifically said this about visual dead-keys.

If you have a large chunk of text you want to hide, use

text you want to hide [/s p o i l e r]

rygD · Apr 26, 2015

Yes, hiding that would be nice.

_wb_ · Apr 26, 2015

Lennaick: how are people supposed to remember all those Shift+AltGr actions?

Also, you have a lot of dead diacritics, but why, really? Circumflex, acute, grave, diaeresis, caron and ogonek are the only ones really useful as a dead diacritic, if you ask me.

Unless you are writing transcriptions of non-Latin languages, some obscure languages, the phonetic alphabet, Hungarian, Vietnamese or something like that, the other dead diacritics are not very useful, or only useful on one specific letter. Tilde is mostly just for ñ, ring for å, cedilla for ç (or you can combine it with ogonek and comma below, because who cares about the difference anyway).

So I think you went a bit over the top with the dead diacritics. And still you can't input Ø Æ Œ Þ Ð, for example.

Why ĳ ? Is there anyone who still wants that as a one-character letter as opposed to just ij ?

Anyway, I appreciate the effort, but it just looks way too arbitrary and complicated to me. In fact, it reminds me a lot of some of my own proposals from 1 year ago

rygD · Apr 26, 2015

_wb_ said:
In fact, it reminds me a lot of some of my own proposals from 1 year ago

I really like some of the changes you have made over the last year.

_wb_ · Apr 26, 2015

rygD said:
_wb_ said:

In fact, it reminds me a lot of some of my own proposals from 1 year ago

Click to expand...

I really like some of the changes you have made over the last year.

Thank you. I agree. Looking back at those proposals I made back in early 2014 (before the physical layout was even known), I see quite some improvement too

_wb_ · Apr 26, 2015

Here is today's iteration of my proposal:

Labels as printed: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/65da9f539f88dfb52e151e0746f1e4b2

Unlabeled defaults in blue: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b781157950369581cf584baeacee4c61

lennaick · Apr 26, 2015

@comradekingu : red chars are unlabeled.

@_wb_ I did not expect that people remembre all deadkey but just the one they need to,

My layout is not good, but I this give me one big answer about « why many dead key are not availaible on layout proposal »

It's the keyboard layout.

Insecticidal Maniac

Glowing ember

Very Active Member

Microbe

Very Active Member

Glowing ember

Sarcasm Dispenser

Insecticidal Maniac

Glowing ember

Sarcasm Dispenser

Insecticidal Maniac

Glowing ember

Member

Glowing ember

Nihilistic Mystic

Microbe

Nihilistic Mystic

Microbe

Microbe

Member

Similar threads