It's the keyboard layout.

[Silent-Hunter]

Edit: This is split from the News Post thread "It's the keyboard layout" - Moderation team

Where is the Compose key? I use that all the time. Also, isn't ' an essential key?

 

[Luke]

Personally, I think it might be a bit weird to have the space bar on the right, instead of centered. I've never used an original Pandora before though, and I'm sure it wouldn't be too bad to get used to.

 

[slimeycat]

The ' is already there.  EvilDragon - I also think the one you've posted is damn near perfect and although debate is helpful, the design you post has resolves the given criteria the best. 

Agree about the +, - and =.  Switch with the o umlout, a umlout and double ess keys?

If the keymap can be changed in software, maybe we can produce our own keymats with the screen printing we want on it ;-)

Looking forward to an impassioned debate!

Fight!

 

[Andrei]

Well, I don't want to be irrational, but I LOVE the compose key. And the compose key needs a lot of this «^» key. For such things as x² for example. Maybe I phrase it as a question: what would be the cheapest solution to let people individually print the labels on the keys (like WASD keyboards does)? I think, I would prefer each "function" to be represented by exactly one key... and I'm pretty sure that you can make a lot of labels redundant if you print a reference card for common compositions, like: compose, s, s -> ß etc. Maybe a good solution would be to print what you had in mind: US, German and French keymappings but then also include sth like a nerd/efficiency mapping, where things are a bit different from those just for programming and composing. I'd adore a dedicated compose key.

 

[Carbon]

Where is the Compose key? I use that all the time. Also, isn't ' an essential key?

Compose key = Left Shift + Right Shift

I do agree ' is an essential key (for developers at least!)

and I'm perplexed about the {[]}, I'm so used to have {} and [] on the same keys then using a modifier to switch between the two pairs... but I'm eager to try ^^

Btw: the security check is way too hard for a human! lol!! you need to be a OCR algo to solve it!

 

[Alec]

I like this layout as well. The only thing that jumps out at me is that the R.Shift is on the Left trigger.

I'll also add that I really like the Compose key, but L+R Shift seems a bit awkward to press. Maybe AltGr+Space would be better?

 

[slaeshjag]

altgr-shift-space is used to make a non-breaking space, in case anyone care about that conflict?

 

[Kev2442]

Well as french is my mother tongue, I'd like to say :

- ' , ` and ^ are greatly needed so please keep'em, that's perfect,

- ä, ü and ö should be replaced with a single ¨ key, so that makes room for two other ones,

- ˊ would be a major plus as we don't have it on AZERTY and is essential for french writing (instead we have é as this is the main one we use, but for É we have to Alt+0201).

- We also need ¸ , because on AZERTY we have ç and we have to Alt+0199 to make the Ç.

Will these recommendations, you keep the same possibilities in german (well maybe a bit more keys to press, just like we would), but we add full support for french, even better than our full keyboards !

I have no idea what the compose key would allow, but as long as we can do œ (o+e) and æ (a + e), I'm satisfied.

Please grant my wish, so we can write french correctly for once !

EDIT : I second the idea of using compose keys to make a ß, but then German would seriously loose their interest in such layout.

Why not switch left and right triggers as well ? I'm more practiced to Left Ctrl, Left Alt, Right Alt Gr. and Right Shift. Well at least, that's what we have in AZERTY, didn't check for QWERTY.

 

[TrashyMG]

Is it really THE keyboard layout thread? 

Is the nightmare soon to be over?

 

[Andrei]

@Kev2442: here's all you typed using my US keyboard and the compose key: œ,æ,ç,Ç,é,É,¸, and of course ´.


some more: ü,ï,ö,ô


how about: a₁,…,ā₉?


basically, all of these aren't necessary as keys if the compose key is easy to reach (and these are as well: «<>^_'"`»).

 

[Kev2442]

@Kev2442: here's all you typed using my US keyboard and the compose key: œ,æ,ç,Ç,é,É,¸, and of course ´.


some more: ü,ï,ö,ô


how about: a₁,…,ā₉?


basically, all of these aren't necessary as keys if the compose key is easy to reach (and these are as well: «<>^_'"`»).

Impressive. Well if we can do that much with compose keys, maybe we could get rid of some keys and have a permanent Esc.

How do you know them ? Is there a list or something ?

 

[slaeshjag]

Compose is crap though for anything you type commonly. Being stuck with compose on my pandora is the primary reason I never use it.

 

[Neelix]

I have to point out that this will have the same problem in dosbox as the pandora keyboard. Dosbox expects : to be shift+;, " to be shift+' etc... I'm not really sure there's anything useful that could be done about that though due to a lack of available keys.

- Neelix

 

[Slacker]

That proposed layout looks pretty horrible.

The worst thing about it is the (ab)use of AltGr for common keys, which will make standard international layouts unusable. For anyone writing in a different language than English or German that will necessitate making a whole new layout from scratch with very non-standard key positions. Heck, I guess the German letters are already in nonstandard positions. For this reason alone I believe there should be separate Fn and AltGr keys.

I don't like hiding Esc behind AltGr. It's just too commonly used, much more common than, say, Tab. Especially Vim users will scream bloody murder at that.

Waste of precious front space on two Shifts and a double-wide Space. There's a shoulder-Shift that most people will use, and a single, tiny front Shift in a hard-to-reach (while palm-holding) corner should suffice for people wanting to use their Pyra on a desk. BTW, I like how the front AltGr is located for this reason.

minor grip: AltGr is usually the right Alt key. The left one is left as normal Alt.

Do we really need separate buttons for turning connectivity on/off? These functions are used so rarely, they could easily be hidden behind an Fn-combination.

...these are my first impression. Please flame me discuss.

 

[Andrei]

Well, the key sequences are oriented around graphical similarity for most things: {compose},{"},{e} will produce ë. ({compose},{,},{c}-> ç) these are all pressed in sequence, not at the same time, so you will not break your hand doing it


Btw. I am German, I type in German (yes everyday stuff as well) and all my keyboards are US layouted because it is VERY good for programming.


@slaeshjag: I use the compose key all the time! So, the compose key being crap for common things is just... like, your opinion, man.

 

[Carbon]

Well as french is my mother tongue, I'd like to say :

- ' , ` and ^ are greatly needed so please keep'em, that's perfect,

- ä, ü and ö should be replaced with a single ¨ key, so that makes room for two other ones,

- ˊ would be a major plus as we don't have it on AZERTY and is essential for french writing (instead we have é as this is the main one we use, but for É we have to Alt+0201).

- We also need ¸ , because on AZERTY we have ç and we have to Alt+0199 to make the Ç.

Will these recommendations, you keep the same possibilities in german (well maybe a bit more keys to press, just like we would), but we add full support for french, even better than our full keyboards !

I have no idea what the compose key would allow, but as long as we can do œ (o+e) and æ (a + e), I'm satisfied.

Please grant my wish, so we can write french correctly for once !

EDIT : I second the idea of using compose keys to make a ß, but then German would seriously loose their interest in such layout.

Why not switch left and right triggers as well ? I'm more practiced to Left Ctrl, Left Alt, Right Alt Gr. and Right Shift. Well at least, that's what we have in AZERTY, didn't check for QWERTY.

well, I always thought AZERTY was such a misconception...

as a programmer I always preferred QWERTY (first because I learned to use computers before they start having custom keyboard layouts such as AZERTY, then because it is amho so much easier to use []{}()\|/<> on QWERTY) and you don't have to use weird ALT+{ascii code} to get latin characters... for instance I use SHIFT + ALT + C to get Ç, or I press any accent key ' ` ˆ ˜ then a vowel (or anything else in special cases such as ñ) to get the targeted letter : À, è, ê, î, ü, Ÿ, ...

and having to press SHIFT to get numbers is so awkward...

 

[slaeshjag]

Well, the key sequences are oriented around graphical similarity for most things: {compose},{"},{e} will produce ë. ({compose},{,},{c}-> ç) these are all pressed in sequence, not at the same time, so you will not break your hand doing it


Btw. I am German, I type in German (yes everyday stuff as well) and all my keyboards are US layouted because it is VERY good for programming.


@slaeshjag: I use the compose key all the time! So, the compose key being crap for common things is just... like, your opinion, man.

inb4 B-Zar replying with something in finnish containing 11 ä's in a 20 character sentence.

 

[fusion_power]

- ä, ü and ö should be replaced with a single ¨ key, so that makes room for two other ones,

This would be like the Pandora then, which was a nightmare imho. On the Pandora I have to press 4 (FOUR!!!) keys to get one single umlaut and even 5 (FIVE!!!) to get an capital umlaut! And we use alot of umlauts in german language. So this solution ED posted seems to be better, still needs more than one button but OK. I would prefer to have the matching umlauts onto the matching letters O->Ö U->Ü and A->Ä but I see that the positioning onto EDs picture is more meant to be onto the (german) standard layout where ÄÖÜ are densed at the right position, (left from the enter key) so this makes sense somehow.

However, there sould be a separate ESC Key, another button that is used alot like enter, space, shift... nearly every (PC) game opens it#s menus with ESC so I would like to see a dedicated ESC.

And I still find that a centered Space bar makes more sense, even onto a handheld. And I guess we don't need 2 shift keys, pure waste.

 

[Kev2442]

I agree with everything said so far.

I understand that german uses a lot of diaereses.

So in order to simplify everyone's lives, we should also have at least é and è, and maybe à then ç as well. These are the major accents used in french.

é and è are so oftenly used that it needs less than the shift-shift>e>AltGr-` combo. The two following aren't vital, but are still quite common.

 

[rygD]

I particularly like the number row, including all modified output.  I LOVE the dedicated delete key.  Thank you for that.  I am not fond of how busy it will look with all the markings on every key, but that is just a personal preference.  I would like some of the keys in a location closer to where they are on a standard keyboard, but this is also minor, since it is better to have those functions at all than skip them all together (and moving everything around results in a new layout, and this is the preferred one).

I would also like a dedicated Esc key, however if we must compromise that is a good choice because it is close enough to where it is expected for newcomers, and it is on the same key for those coming from the Pandora.  We could get rid of one of the shifts and do some minor moving around to get a dedicated Escape.  I don't have time right now to poke around with it much.

I am not sure if you care about the nubs/mouse controls.  I do like swapping left and right clicks as the button function on the opposite nub.  I will need to try it out to be sure what works well.  I will personally probably use right nub for scrolling, however it seems the nub functions might be good for most people.

While not really important it would be cool to have red as the secondary key marking color to go along with the idea and origin of the name.

Can someone with some free time please put the above layout into that keyboard builder we are using for other layouts?  This might help us see where we can fix some of the things ED mentioned, and help identify issues we are currently overlooking.