It's the keyboard layout.


Sheeze this is like watching a clowder of cats trying to herd itself...
 
Lennaick, that is my suggestion. Press ctrl+alt to invoke it.  Problem is   comma and dot keys, which have more than 1, so you'd need  ctrl+alt+shift  or  ctrl+alt+altGr on those to decide between them.

Edit: here is a link to the latest one.   It is a "meet in the middle" joint effort.

US symbols on numberrow now. Easier to reach AltGr with modifier-combinations to 5 6 7.
 
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Observation: quite a lot of programming symbols {<[ etc on meta - maybe more on shift would be better?
 
Do you have an example of what you'd change?  I like putting most coding symbols on Meta so that muscle/brain memory associates Meta with coding symbols.  It becomes more automatic, perhaps.

In line with this, and possibly something you might change, I put <> on Meta+,. instead of Shift+,.

I could switch this, but then I lose the muscle/brain memory, and I must change modifiers halfway through some common coding combinations.  Also, <> don't appear in writing very much, which means having ;: on Shift (more common writing symbols, on a bigger button than Meta, at least on the shoulder) would be an advantage.

It also gives a nice reminder of where the German << quotation marks >> are.
 
<> appear in writing a great deal when its java or C or a wide range of other languages you are writing in.

"%^&*(){}@>< wouldn't these symbols be better on shift ? (In the same way as a traditional keyboard)
 
ible said:
Do you have an example of what you'd change?  I like putting most coding symbols on Meta so that muscle/brain memory associates Meta with coding symbols.  It becomes more automatic, perhaps.

In line with this, and possibly something you might change, I put <> on Meta+,. instead of Shift+,.

I could switch this, but then I lose the muscle/brain memory, and I must change modifiers halfway through some common coding combinations.  Also, <> don't appear in writing very much, which means having ;: on Shift (more common writing symbols, on a bigger button than Meta, at least on the shoulder) would be an advantage.

It also gives a nice reminder of where the German << quotation marks >> are.
Click to expand...
In my mind ; : are just as much "coding symbols" as < >, so I don't have a strong reason to deviate from the US-QWERTY way (< > on Shift+, .).

Most of the shift+number symbols are also more frequently used in coding than in text, so I can't really mentally map Meta to coding and Shift to text or something like that.

Here is a list of symbols sorted by frequency: http://mdickens.me/typing/theory-of-letter-frequency.html

These are the orders he comes up with (where "Programming" is C, Java, Perl and Ruby, which is of course a rather arbitrary choice of languages)


Prose: e t a o i n h s r d l u m w c y f g , p b . v k ' " - ; ! ? x j q : z _ < > ) ( 1 2 0 4 3 5 9 8 6 7 * [ ] + & / } { % @ $ = ~
Casual: e t a o i n s r h l d c u m g y f p w b . , v k 0 - ' x ) ( 1 j 2 : q " / 5 ! ? z 3 4 6 8 7 9 % [ ] * = + | _ ; \ > $ # ^ & @ < ~ { } `
Programming: e t a r i s n o l c d _ p u f m ( ) g h ; b , = . v x y * " k w - 0 / $ > { } 1 : ' \ 2 q [ ] j & + z < 3 | @ # 4 ! 8 5 6 9 7 % ? ~ ^ `
Formal: e t a i o n s r h l d c u f m p g y w b , v . k - x " ; 1 j q 0 2 ' ) ( z : 9 [ ] 3 4 5 6 8 7 ? ` _ / ! & ^ + % = { * } | ~ > # < @ $
News: e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ( ) $ ; | ? / ! & ] [ % @ _ > < * = + #


As an overall weighted list, he has the following sequence:

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \

Now if you look at that list, I think the most important thing is to have dedicated keys for the high frequency keys, or standard shifted keys like on a regular keyboard, but have the Meta-keys mostly for less frequent symbols. Using some color-coding:

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (normal full keyboard)

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (my main proposal)

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (Saber v1.2)

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (comradekingu)

where green indicates primary keys and orange indicates shifted keys and blue indicates Meta keys.

(also I have underlined the prefix of frequent symbols that completely coincide with a normal full keyboard)

I would argue that a good thing about my proposal is that it has - and ' as primary keys (and " as a shifted key as usual), which is quite important because those three punctuation symbols (' " -) are more important than four letters (X J Z Q) and all of the numbers (except 0 for '). Not having ` { } ~ \ as normal keys (primary or shifted) is not a big deal, since they're the least frequent ones. Another conclusion from the above is that having + as a dedicated key is not very important.
 
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_wb_ said:
Lennaick said:
After some reading ( I've time today \o/ ) I really want to see a layout with comradekingu suggestion ( http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ ) It'll might be easy to use with less (no?) hidden chars.
Click to expand...
In my layout you can do almost all of that without even using R_Alt as AltGr, just by using the available Meta and Shift-Meta keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e6d375173409cb2f173e7f47a99a25b3
Click to expand...
I do like this one - it makes some very well thought through compromises.  That isn't a criticism, ALL of the layouts must make compromises.

There are a few bits that still annoy me on it though.

Ins and Del belong with PgUp, PgDn, Home, End.  Putting + and - on the 5th and 6th game pad buttons is an interesting work around for not printing shift+Fn keys.

Unfortunately, the entire layout ignores DosBox and QEMU.

True right Alt as AltGr is not possible with this layout.

It isn't clear how diacritics or compose would work - that may have already been discussed.

Alt and Ctl on the keyboard require a Vulcan death grip to do anything with.

Is it functional?  Yes.  Ideal?  Mmm...  that is a -lot- of compromises.
 
[ ] are primary on this, the point of which isnt to reinstate english functionality, its to bring international keyboard-functionality to the mix.

e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (comradekingu)

I put combo-clicks in light-green to give a more real presentation. Whats missing here is öäü, or equivalent things that belong in the first part of this composium,( which takes the place of { } < > [ ] )
 
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I still don't understand your layout:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/defa1de156b3f65598ab8ce45e2ac82b
 

The symbol to a left on a key is the shiftmod.
The symbol in the middle is normalclick
The symbol on the right is AltGr or meta for F keys
Click to expand...
For your number keys, you have, e.g.:

1 ! |
2 @ "
3 # '

So, reading your instructions:

  • key on left is shiftmod (1 2 3) -- you need shift to hit a number key
  • symbol in middle is normal click (! @ #) -- you get what are regularly shift keys by not pressing shift
  • Symbol on right is AltGr (| " ') -- that makes a little sense, except for the "or meta for F keys"
I suppose you mean "or meta for F11 and F12".  There are no other meta/Fn combos, right?

My concern with this layout is that it's hard to hit F7 through F10 -- not that I need those much (I typically only use F11).  Your right thumb needs to be in two places at once to get F7 - F10.  And that the instructions are confusing.  I think (hope) you mean the other way around for the normalclick and shiftmod symbols.
 
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You got the right idea. Depending on whether the F-keys are printed or not, the documentation will have to be updated.

This is my preffered list

Dont print at all. Instructions can be put in conky or on desktop wallpaper.

Print only F11 and F12, rest can be as a colour on the numbers to remember.

Print every single F-key on QWERT, in different colour. Ugly and invasive.

Since it isnt possible to have a continous line of F-keys that are on numbers, printing F-keys will always be sub-optimal.

Printing the numbers in a different colour is both ugly and a bit messy. The reason why the letters arent on the left, is because they are the shiftmods. They are big versals, in position 2.

F7-F10 is cumbersome. It becomes a problem with combos. I havent used any of those either, so i dont know. F1 F5 F4 and F11 are the ones i know of a use for.
 
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As somebody who writes with a UK layout keyboard (Yet is an american.) I've grown use to not dealing with labels. Hell, I've also used a swedish keyboard layout for a bit just to see how different it is..But I must say I do like _wb_'s layout from a writing stand point. Not having labels doesn't bother me. Hell you should see my netbook I use to write on.. its keyboard has keys without labels on them.. I wore them clean off... So keyboard feel has alot to do with it.. (Also why I stuck with the Uk keyboard layout shift 2 for " just is easier on my hand I weld left handed..) So _wb_'s layout I really like so far. It seems more natural to me at least. 
 
From some private communication with comradekingu:  on his layout the number keys are top layer, and standard US symbols on the number row are shifted, and he breaks AltGr functionality for the numbers in order to get all the symbols on the keyboard, without cluttering up the alphabet keys with Meta or modified AltGr functionality.

Also his Meta key, which functions like a Fn key to get all the F1-F12, is a software modifier.
 
So yeah,

Here´s my proposal. I wanted to do this for a long time already but never got round to it.

It´s inspired on the one ED likes in the first post and edited from _wb_´s proposal. I wanted a better compatibility with the Pandora than his so I shuffled some keys around, edited some keys left and right and ended up with this.

I'm very happy with the end result, I think it meets most criteria and is very complete for writing in multiple languages, coding, gaming etc. in my opinion.

Please take a look at it and take it into consideration. :)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/54832d373514adb1184506964213fee3

8
 
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Eight Bit said:
So yeah,

Here´s my proposal. I wanted to do this for a long time already but never got round to it.

It´s inspired on the one ED likes in the first post and edited from _wb_´s proposal. I wanted a better compatibility with the Pandora than his so I shuffled some keys around, edited some keys left and right and ended up with this.

I'm very happy with the end result, I think it meets most criteria and is very complete for writing in multiple languages, coding, gaming etc. in my opinion.

Please take a look at it and take it into consideration. :)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/54832d373514adb1184506964213fee3

8
Click to expand...
Could you add a column for your proposal to the big comparison table? It's a good way to get semi-automatic feedback ;)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit#gid=1574311258
 
Urben said:
_wb_ said:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit#gid=1574311258
Click to expand...
 I would use this if I would understand it. I know its not easy but you have to make a how-to if you want more reach.
Click to expand...
It's not that hard. You just go to the right hand side of the table (column W or so), add your name, and type numbers in 'your' column. You look at the property on the left, if it's something you care about a lot, you give it a high number, otherwise you leave that row empty or give it a low number. If it's something you think is bad, then you can give it a negative number.

Your 'score' for each proposal is then automatically computed by making a big weighted sum over all properties. You should take into account that some properties are boolean (possible values are 0 and 1), while others have a larger range. If you give a weight of 10 to a boolean property, then proposals that have that property get +10 while proposals that don't have it get nothing. If you give a weight of 10 to a property that ranges from 0 to 8, then some proposals will get +80, so it will have much more impact and you may want to scale down your weights accordingly to compensate for that.
 
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