It's the keyboard layout.

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Silent-Hunter, Mar 23, 2015.

  1. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    I really like some of the changes you have made over the last year.
     
  2. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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  3. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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  4. lennaick

    lennaick Member

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    @comradekingu : red chars are unlabeled.

    @_wb_ I did not expect that people remembre all deadkey but just the one they need to,

    My layout is not good, but I this give me one big answer about « why many dead key are not availaible on layout proposal »
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  5. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    Sheeze this is like watching a clowder of cats trying to herd itself...
     
  6. lennaick

    lennaick Member

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    After some reading ( I've time today \o/ ) I really want to see a layout with comradekingu suggestion ( http://www.brianhetrick.com/kb/ ) It'll might be easy to use with less (no?) hidden chars.
     
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  7. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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  8. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    Lennaick, that is my suggestion. Press ctrl+alt to invoke it.  Problem is   comma and dot keys, which have more than 1, so you'd need  ctrl+alt+shift  or  ctrl+alt+altGr on those to decide between them.

    Edit: here is a link to the latest one.   It is a "meet in the middle" joint effort.

    US symbols on numberrow now. Easier to reach AltGr with modifier-combinations to 5 6 7.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2015
  9. ible

    ible professional vim user

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  10. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    Observation: quite a lot of programming symbols {<[ etc on meta - maybe more on shift would be better?
     
  11. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    Do you have an example of what you'd change?  I like putting most coding symbols on Meta so that muscle/brain memory associates Meta with coding symbols.  It becomes more automatic, perhaps.

    In line with this, and possibly something you might change, I put <> on Meta+,. instead of Shift+,.

    I could switch this, but then I lose the muscle/brain memory, and I must change modifiers halfway through some common coding combinations.  Also, <> don't appear in writing very much, which means having ;: on Shift (more common writing symbols, on a bigger button than Meta, at least on the shoulder) would be an advantage.

    It also gives a nice reminder of where the German << quotation marks >> are.
     
  12. codifies

    codifies Very Active Member

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    <> appear in writing a great deal when its java or C or a wide range of other languages you are writing in.

    "%^&*(){}@>< wouldn't these symbols be better on shift ? (In the same way as a traditional keyboard)
     
  13. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    In my mind ; : are just as much "coding symbols" as < >, so I don't have a strong reason to deviate from the US-QWERTY way (< > on Shift+, .).

    Most of the shift+number symbols are also more frequently used in coding than in text, so I can't really mentally map Meta to coding and Shift to text or something like that.

    Here is a list of symbols sorted by frequency: http://mdickens.me/typing/theory-of-letter-frequency.html

    These are the orders he comes up with (where "Programming" is C, Java, Perl and Ruby, which is of course a rather arbitrary choice of languages)


    Prose: e t a o i n h s r d l u m w c y f g , p b . v k ' " - ; ! ? x j q : z _ < > ) ( 1 2 0 4 3 5 9 8 6 7 * [ ] + & / } { % @ $ = ~
    Casual: e t a o i n s r h l d c u m g y f p w b . , v k 0 - ' x ) ( 1 j 2 : q " / 5 ! ? z 3 4 6 8 7 9 % [ ] * = + | _ ; \ > $ # ^ & @ < ~ { } `
    Programming: e t a r i s n o l c d _ p u f m ( ) g h ; b , = . v x y * " k w - 0 / $ > { } 1 : ' \ 2 q [ ] j & + z < 3 | @ # 4 ! 8 5 6 9 7 % ? ~ ^ `
    Formal: e t a i o n s r h l d c u f m p g y w b , v . k - x " ; 1 j q 0 2 ' ) ( z : 9 [ ] 3 4 5 6 8 7 ? ` _ / ! & ^ + % = { * } | ~ > # < @ $
    News: e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ( ) $ ; | ? / ! & ] [ % @ _ > < * = + #


    As an overall weighted list, he has the following sequence:

    e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \

    Now if you look at that list, I think the most important thing is to have dedicated keys for the high frequency keys, or standard shifted keys like on a regular keyboard, but have the Meta-keys mostly for less frequent symbols. Using some color-coding:

    e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (normal full keyboard)

    e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (my main proposal)

    e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (Saber v1.2)

    e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] % _ @ > = * < + # ` ^ { } ~ \  (comradekingu)

    where green indicates primary keys and orange indicates shifted keys and blue indicates Meta keys.

    (also I have underlined the prefix of frequent symbols that completely coincide with a normal full keyboard)

    I would argue that a good thing about my proposal is that it has - and ' as primary keys (and " as a shifted key as usual), which is quite important because those three punctuation symbols (' " -) are more important than four letters (X J Z Q) and all of the numbers (except 0 for '). Not having ` { } ~ \ as normal keys (primary or shifted) is not a big deal, since they're the least frequent ones. Another conclusion from the above is that having + as a dedicated key is not very important.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2015
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  14. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    I do like this one - it makes some very well thought through compromises.  That isn't a criticism, ALL of the layouts must make compromises.

    There are a few bits that still annoy me on it though.

    Ins and Del belong with PgUp, PgDn, Home, End.  Putting + and - on the 5th and 6th game pad buttons is an interesting work around for not printing shift+Fn keys.

    Unfortunately, the entire layout ignores DosBox and QEMU.

    True right Alt as AltGr is not possible with this layout.

    It isn't clear how diacritics or compose would work - that may have already been discussed.

    Alt and Ctl on the keyboard require a Vulcan death grip to do anything with.

    Is it functional?  Yes.  Ideal?  Mmm...  that is a -lot- of compromises.
     
  15. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    [ ] are primary on this, the point of which isnt to reinstate english functionality, its to bring international keyboard-functionality to the mix.

    e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ) ( $ ; | ? / ! & [ ] _ @ > = * < + # ` { } ~ \  (comradekingu)

    I put combo-clicks in light-green to give a more real presentation. Whats missing here is öäü, or equivalent things that belong in the first part of this composium,( which takes the place of { } < > [ ] )
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2015
  16. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    I still don't understand your layout:
    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/defa1de156b3f65598ab8ce45e2ac82b
     

    For your number keys, you have, e.g.:

    1 ! |
    2 @ "
    3 # '

    So, reading your instructions:

    • key on left is shiftmod (1 2 3) -- you need shift to hit a number key
    • symbol in middle is normal click (! @ #) -- you get what are regularly shift keys by not pressing shift
    • Symbol on right is AltGr (| " ') -- that makes a little sense, except for the "or meta for F keys"
    I suppose you mean "or meta for F11 and F12".  There are no other meta/Fn combos, right?

    My concern with this layout is that it's hard to hit F7 through F10 -- not that I need those much (I typically only use F11).  Your right thumb needs to be in two places at once to get F7 - F10.  And that the instructions are confusing.  I think (hope) you mean the other way around for the normalclick and shiftmod symbols.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2015
  17. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    You got the right idea. Depending on whether the F-keys are printed or not, the documentation will have to be updated.

    This is my preffered list

    Dont print at all. Instructions can be put in conky or on desktop wallpaper.

    Print only F11 and F12, rest can be as a colour on the numbers to remember.

    Print every single F-key on QWERT, in different colour. Ugly and invasive.

    Since it isnt possible to have a continous line of F-keys that are on numbers, printing F-keys will always be sub-optimal.

    Printing the numbers in a different colour is both ugly and a bit messy. The reason why the letters arent on the left, is because they are the shiftmods. They are big versals, in position 2.

    F7-F10 is cumbersome. It becomes a problem with combos. I havent used any of those either, so i dont know. F1 F5 F4 and F11 are the ones i know of a use for.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2015
  18. DrHAX

    DrHAX T̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶u̶t̶h̶o̶r̶ The Artist

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    As somebody who writes with a UK layout keyboard (Yet is an american.) I've grown use to not dealing with labels. Hell, I've also used a swedish keyboard layout for a bit just to see how different it is..But I must say I do like _wb_'s layout from a writing stand point. Not having labels doesn't bother me. Hell you should see my netbook I use to write on.. its keyboard has keys without labels on them.. I wore them clean off... So keyboard feel has alot to do with it.. (Also why I stuck with the Uk keyboard layout shift 2 for " just is easier on my hand I weld left handed..) So _wb_'s layout I really like so far. It seems more natural to me at least. 
     
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  19. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    From some private communication with comradekingu:  on his layout the number keys are top layer, and standard US symbols on the number row are shifted, and he breaks AltGr functionality for the numbers in order to get all the symbols on the keyboard, without cluttering up the alphabet keys with Meta or modified AltGr functionality.

    Also his Meta key, which functions like a Fn key to get all the F1-F12, is a software modifier.
     
  20. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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