Current Keyboard Layout

[thatgui]

I don't mind toggling my wifi from the task-bar, which presumably is where a little WiFi icon will sit.  i'd prefer this rather than a dedicated WiFi button, since it's not too hard to get to (and is where people would expect it), and saves us a button.

Working your way through the taskbar will probably include more then one input device and is a lot more cumbersome. I don't see why this should be made a lot more easy and efficient, unless - of course - you think that this button is needed for something more important.

Yes, I was planning to have the USR-Buttons setup to something like this per default.

You can do Fn+Shift+Key combinations, I just don't want to print them somewhere, as it will get too complicated.

What is your opinion on _wb_s idea ?:

I would personally prefer to make USR1 a "Hardware modifier", which can be used to view and toggle the status of all kinds of things: USR1+W for wifi toggle, USR1+M for mobile data, USR1+U for USB, USR1+H for HDMI, USR1+G for GPS, USR1+R for rumble, and so on.

It sound a lot more intuitive then grenchs idea, but adds another "layer" which may get confusing (and kind of a pity to maintain)

If the brightness would cycle back to off after going to max, then those who wouldn't know about Shift for decreasing brightness would still be able to use it completely. Knowing about Shift would just enhance it...

Great enhancement

And for that setup we don't need 100 levels of brightness. Personally, I would function quite fine with 5 or maybe 6.

Off

Minimum back light on.

33%

66%

90%

Max

Is 5 too few? Maybe. However, 10 is IMHO too many. Maybe 6 is about right? That would still be manageable with it cycling over the top to off.

I too think that too many steps will just anoy people (maybe and odd number with 50% brightness "in the middle"), but I am not sure equidistant "steps" are optimal.

I don't like where this is going (no Fn+Shift labels where useful, F-keys on numbers, numbers on primary keys, too many labels, random placement of symbols, too many keys wasted on hardware control, double width space, etc.). I know that none of this is going to change. Could you please make a poll where I can vote 'It sucks', then it would at least feel democratic or something

Well, I don't see a donator banner underneath your picture so you must really feel this way.

Do I just not get the irony, or is that an aspirant for the stupidest comment of the year ?

Actually, the top row is not really comfortable to use, which is why it shouldn't be used for common keys but only for special stuff you only need ocassionally (like hardware toggles, etc.)

Please stick to that for the your final placement of [ESC]

Not a big fan of deciding Keyboard layout based on popularity through a poll.

...

A poll probably won't do much good but it can't hurt either (except for EDs amount of sleepy time, I guess)

 

[bzar]

The Menu key is typically the right click menu, which can be accessed by clicking the left nub. I personally feel that Super is a better option where you have Menu, but this will probably cause problems for Insert. I will try to think of a way to move everything around.

Can a modifier key easily used for a menu function on XFCE / KDE / Gnome / whatever?
I wanted to keep ALL modifier keys as modifier keys, not misuse them for such functions.


And the Menu button does not necessarily have to be mapped to right click - this can be changed with the default setup.


Having it as right click doesn't make sense anyways, as the left nub is not far away.

Menu key is not bound to right mouse button click. It's bound to 'context menu' functionality of the wm, same as right mouse button. For example in KDE I have not found a way to remap menu or its modified versions to anything else while keeping its identity the same.

 

[moxie]

Not a big fan of deciding Keyboard layout based on popularity through a poll.


...

A poll probably won't do much good but it can't hurt either (except for EDs amount of sleepy time, I guess)

A poll is a poll, not a decision. A poll is a way to get some sort of quantitative information from the boards, but it is EDs decision in the end.

 

[Saber]

I don't like where this is going (no Fn+Shift labels where useful, F-keys on numbers, numbers on primary keys, too many labels, random placement of symbols, too many keys wasted on hardware control, double width space, etc.). I know that none of this is going to change. Could you please make a poll where I can vote 'It sucks', then it would at least feel democratic or something

Well, I don't see a donator banner underneath your picture so you must really feel this way.

Do I just not get the irony, or is that an aspirant for the stupidest comment of the year ?

Whichever makes you giddy. 

 

[thatgui]

Not a big fan of deciding Keyboard layout based on popularity through a poll.


...

A poll probably won't do much good but it can't hurt either (except for EDs amount of sleepy time, I guess)

A poll is a poll, not a decision. A poll is a way to get some sort of quantitative information from the boards, but it is EDs decision in the end.

I have my doubts that the poll will produce results that will be very utilizable: probably low participation and with the "contenders" lacking very distinctive features, I assume that none will win "with flying colors". But maybe I'm wrong, the poll will tell

 

[WizardStan]

I assume that none will win "with flying colors"

It's more likely that it'll be a confirmation for ED's decision. Either there'll be one or a few (2 or 3 perhaps) that rank "high" and he'll pick from one of those; or there'll be a bunch of middling results and a bunch of low results and the only thing to learn is what not to do, which to be fair is still a good thing to learn but I don't think it'll change anything. It'll just tell ED "yup, nobody really hates this layout you've selected, it's not piss poor and is reasonable compared to all the others, no harm comes from using it", which is also a very good thing to know, actually.

 

[Saber]

I assume that none will win "with flying colors"

It's more likely that it'll be a confirmation for ED's decision. Either there'll be one or a few (2 or 3 perhaps) that rank "high" and he'll pick from one of those; or there'll be a bunch of middling results and a bunch of low results and the only thing to learn is what not to do, which to be fair is still a good thing to learn but I don't think it'll change anything. It'll just tell ED "yup, nobody really hates this layout you've selected, it's not piss poor and is reasonable compared to all the others, no harm comes from using it", which is also a very good thing to know, actually.

If only we could rely on people rationally comprehending the choice they make and the consequences of choosing it. 

 

[_wb_]

I'll also write this as a PM to ED, but I'm putting it in this thread too in case anyone wants to tweak it from here:
 
Layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5c6f3a84973475c04208892efc45ea9f
 
Description:
Shift,Fn/Meta both on the left, comma/period on the right. Dedicated key for backtick/tilde `~ (could be useful in some games, and also: dead grave/tilde diacritic on Fn+`~). Slash, tilde and question mark (/~?) are mashable symbols (can be typed in one thumb move, like Tab on the Pandora), and so are Shift-Tab and CapsLock. Hidden dead diacritics on the Shift+Fn layer for those who need them. USR button (suggested label: ⚙) for hardware toggles. German letters üöäß can be easily typed even without shoulder modifiers or sticky Fn. Most important French letters éèàç are labeled. Compose at Fn+Backspace might sound a bit weird at first, but remember that Backspace was the Compose method back in the typewriter days .

Special geeky feature: GREEK and MATH. They are dead keys that make it easy to input Greek letters (αβςδεφγηιθκλμνοπχρστυωξψζ ΑΒΔΕΦΓΗΙΘΚΛΜΝΟΠΧΡΣΤΥΩΞΨΖ) and mathematical symbols (∡⊂⊆⊊∂∈∫ℓℵ°∏√∑× ∆∇ ≥ ≤ ‰∅∞∝ − ∕ ÷⊕⊗ ≡≈ ∀∃ ℂℍℕℙℚℝℤ ∩⋂∪⋃ ↔⇔ →⇒ ↦⊧ ⊤⊥ ¬∨∧).

 

[ible]

@_wb_: compose on fn+backspace means that in-game your lower-left game-button will act differently if you are pressing the shoulder Fn button.

I'll put my final submission to ED here, too. (Already sent in a PM.) I wanted to have a layout without backspace on the button cluster:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b4cff3219313830f1a5e0137855f8355

Thanks ED for allowing a final poll .

 

[_wb_]

@_wb_: compose on fn+backspace means that in-game your lower-left game-button will act differently if you are pressing the shoulder Fn button.

Maybe. More likely though, the southwest action button will work just fine in combination with shoulder Fn in games, but it'll just not act as a Compose key. It all depends on how the game is implemented of course, but most likely, Compose will not work anyway inside a game (it only tends to work in applications that get their text input from some relatively high-level library like gtk or qt).

I'll put my final submission to ED here, too. (Already sent in a PM.) I wanted to have a layout without backspace on the button cluster:

Is this because you think Ins and Del belong together (like on a full keyboard), or because you want backspace in the bottom part?

On the Pandora, Backspace is also to the right of 0, but on the Pandora that is all the way up top, above the action button Y. That was not ideal, but it worked. I think backspace on the southwest action button would also work well enough.

Esc and F12 are often used to quit programs (often without confirmation dialog). So I'm a bit worried about accidental quits if they are at Fn+Tab and Fn+Enter. For this reason I have not put any "potentially harmful" keys on the left and right edges of the keyboard. (this includes Backspace by the way, which can be just as destructive as Delete).

 

[FaeMinx]

If only we could rely on people rationally comprehending the choice they make and the consequences of choosing it.

This.

 

[ible]

I'll put my final submission to ED here, too. (Already sent in a PM.) I wanted to have a layout without backspace on the button cluster:

 Is this because you think Ins and Del belong together (like on a full keyboard), or because you want backspace in the bottom part?

yes.

Esc and F12 are often used to quit programs (often without confirmation dialog). So I'm a bit worried about accidental quits if they are at Fn+Tab and Fn+Enter. For this reason I have not put any "potentially harmful" keys on the left and right edges of the keyboard. (this includes Backspace by the way, which can be just as destructive as Delete).

Which programs use F12 as a quit function? I'm aware of Alt-F4 closing the program without dialogue, but not F12. At any rate, F12 is where ED currently has it on the current layout AFAICT, so that's not super contentious. I agree with ED in that I'd like to have Esc closer to the main keyboard (for vim purposes), and on Tab seems like a nice accessible place (also where ED has it, AFAICT), and because it's in a more prominent position I'm not worried about too many accidental presses. But as you know, your qualms are just as much with ED's keyboard as mine .

Re: backspace on main keyboard and putting insert up with the game controls, here's what I said to ED:

Dedicated (but far-away) insert makes it easier to paste into the terminal, and re-unites the Home/PgUp/PgDn/End/Delete/Insert common cluster. Backspace can now be used in games which might also use the small buttons on the gaming cluster (for e.g. text-input).

I'm not against backspace on the southwest game-button, but I think there's a better spot for it (i.e., where I put it, and where we all put it for a long time ).

 

[TrashyMG]

Which programs use F12 as a quit function?

Can think of some old Amiga and Dos applications that do that. 

 

[Haraldur]

I think having the number keys as on _wb_'s proposal is good, as space is saved. (F)(1-0).

I am in favour of having ESC on the leftmost button on the topmost row because:

1 - It is unlikely, then, to be pressed accidentally,

2 - I think it would be easier to deal with, as a VIM user, than Fn+TAB, and Fn+Q, where Q is not a corner/edge key, is HORRIBLE,

3 - I think it is not too difficult to reach, assuming it is similar to the number 4 on the Pandora: having tested it, I find it no worse than the ESC on the normal QWERTY keyboard, for frequent VIM use,

4 - I think it would be easy to find, as there would be no keys to its left, as on a Pandora.

Lid-close as a special (super) key for media keys is nice, especially if it also counts for the Pyra/super key: it would allow the use of certain Music Player Daemon applets, which accept the media key commands without being the main application with focus (there is a decent one in xfce4-goodies, I believe). EDIT: here it is: http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/panel-plugins/xfce4-mpc-plugin

If there are worries about backspace being pressed accidentally, I propose rightmost topmost as a decent place, like the 8 on the Pandora. I think it would be easy to reach and to find, as there are no keys to its right.

I am not particularly keen to devise my own layout just to showcase all of these -- would doing so make my arguments more convincing?

 

[comradekingu]

I see how you think, and agree, except for placing backspace on rightmost rowbutton. You arent getting 12 numberbuttons for it, only 11, and with ESC being on leftmost rowbutton, you have no space to do Select Start in that orientation, so you give that up.

If you wanted two brightnessbuttons, putting them on FN+ columnrow ctrl and alt would give that same visual clue. Select/Ctrl is as small as it is on the pandora.

 

[Saber]

Layout 7.0: http://i.imgur.com/hLJoUZ3.png

Spoiler

The Rundown:

• Screen and Key Backlight leveling on two buttons for precision adjustments.
• Requested Wifi and 4G/BT hardware toggle present. If people feel overwhelmingly negative about it, we could label it the "ANY" key and use it for remaps. 
• Super “Pyra” button is without a Shift or Fn value and thus can be used as a modifier. Could be combined with Alt for Magic SysRq commands.
• Insert and Delete are primary and aptly labeled on smaller action buttons as + and -.
• Backspace and Enter are without Shift or Fn values and can be utilized under all key tiers.
• Braces, Brackets, and Slashes are grouped together, including ( and ).
• German umlauts in a row with ü and ö on corresponding vowels for easy pinpointing. ß is close by as well. 
• Dead key diacritics Circumflex, Grave, and Acute are also in one row unhidden at Fn + h, j, and k, respectively.
• Symbols at Shift + 9 and 0 and Fn + b, n, and m are conveniently gathered for optional remapping.  
• Caps Lock is at anticipated location. May be repurposed, like much of the layout, at user’s volition.

Why Escape is at top right?

Ideally if Escape is there, everyone including blind typists no longer need worry about hitting it accidentally ever again. Besides that, the truth is most individuals are right thumb dominant so having it placed at the upper right makes sense(in our already admittedly unconventional layout), and as a side benefit to this with it proximal to the action buttons, brevity is given to the task of exiting out of emulators, which is usually by Escape.     

A list of Compose key sequences can be found here.

 

[Haraldur]

While having ESC on the right confounds my expectations, slightly, I have no major problem with it -- would get used to it quite quickly.

 

[TrashyMG]

ESC on the right makes me cringe. 

 

[comradekingu]

I don't understand moving ( and ) on the otherwise US shiftnumberrow away from 9 0 to have all brackets clustered. Because there is no obvious benefit, its not close to a shift type button, its just harder to reach..?

Replacing them with € and  paragraphsign means the people who use €'s wont find them in familiar E spot, and apparantly nobody but users of german layout (where it is on 3) needs paragraph-sign, so i dont understand including it for everyone.

 

[Saber]

While having ESC on the right confounds my expectations, slightly, I have no major problem with it -- would get used to it quite quickly.

Thank you. So would everyone else although I'm not forcing anyone to accept this layout.  

ESC on the right makes me cringe. 

Your head must still be spinning from where , and . are then and please don't share what the spacebar is doing to you.

You do realize having Escape there lets us move both backlight brightness controls to the left side, opposite from where keyboard Fn/Meta is, which is good for those people who won't use the shoulder button Fn/Meta often? If you'd rather press two buttons Fn then q for it though...  

I don't understand moving ( and ) on the otherwise US shiftnumberrow away from 9 0 to have all brackets clustered. Because there is no obvious benefit, its not close to a shift type button, its just harder to reach..?

Replacing them with € and  paragraphsign means the people who use €'s wont find them in familiar E spot, and apparantly nobody but users of german layout (where it is on 3) needs paragraph-sign, so i dont understand including it for everyone.

ED wasn't happy to have to now always use shoulder Shift for ( and ) since we only have one keyboard Shift, which is now on the right, and he was already set to move them over in his collaborative layout from what I suspect from an earlier post of his. Thinking about it, we could switch ( and ) with $ and % or # and $ but maybe it doesn't matter. ED has the editor link for the layout so it's up to him, if he even wants to go with this layout(which doesn't matter to me either way). 

If you can't reach ( and ) then you must have trouble reaching the letters R and the T.  ED wanted Section Sign and I didn't want Degree so I replaced it with Euro. I did say this layout as most of the proposals besides yours of course Comrade, are unconventional and non-standard.  B)