It's the keyboard layout.
- Thread starter Silent-Hunter
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codifies
Very Active Member
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- Sep 29, 2014
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still too confusing...
Eight Bit
Hardcore Member
Sorry, My revised keyboard layout... I got some feedback and there was still room for improvement
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdf33daff649f278104e533af4530f3f
It hurt my feelings to have to take the ß away from the S key and put it next to the B but I had to for consistancy in block dividing...
Hopefully you find it complete, easy to learn and work with, Pandora compatible in usage and easy on the eyes
No more double modifier keys so all those should be free for personal use.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdf33daff649f278104e533af4530f3f
It hurt my feelings to have to take the ß away from the S key and put it next to the B but I had to for consistancy in block dividing...
Hopefully you find it complete, easy to learn and work with, Pandora compatible in usage and easy on the eyes
No more double modifier keys so all those should be free for personal use.
MrConfusion
Very Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2013
- Messages
- 331
I might be posting in the wrong thread, likely this post is totally worthless anyway and I definitely haven't read up on this thread up to this point as whatever layout you decide on I will destroy as soon as I get my hands on my Pyra.
But I want to share what changes I made to the Pandora keymap to make it "just work" for me. I.e. this is what I use daily and this will give some idea of what I'll be doing to the Pyra too, in time...
The change described in a moment has been incremental in many ways: I tweaked it to this point, but am unlikely to tweak further as no new needs have popped up for quite a while...
So... you will want to look at a Pandora when reading this, I'm typing this on mine.
X in gamekeys is enter, Y is space (real nice in many games), A and B are left and right mouse by default, but also joystick 1 or 2, joystick 1 or right Amiga, it all depends on what I want at a given moment for a given game or emu...
Gamekeys can be switched to second mode with CTRL-PowerswitchFlipRight, they become what I tag as "redundant weirdo keys" sometimes needed for games: CapsLock, NumLock,ScrollLock,Break/SysRq. It is just easier to have these behind a switch than not at all or in some SDL trickery...
The Pandora key is a Fn-like modifier for me. So Pandora+Up,Down does PageUp and PageDown, Pandora+Left,Right is Home,End.
Pandora+A,B,Y,X are keypad minus, kpplus, kpdel and kpenter. The minus and plus have proven really practical for throttling in for example flightsims.
Pandora is modifier, because I can easily reach it with both of my thumbs from either side of the keyboard when tabletyping. This modifier is mapped to two keys: right trigger is also Pandora except when triggers are switched to mousekeys.
CTRL is left shift (again reachable symmetrically), left trigger is also left shift except when swithed to mousebutton. Having modifier next to shift is important because they are often pressed at the same time (learned the hard way... crampy days...).
Triggers are switchable to mousekeys with keycombo ALT-powerflip right.
Because of the two powerswitch flip modes, I had to expose those flips to dwm status bar and also to software (so I know they are not on when I type in a password to locked screen) I did this by adding a couple of integer reading/writing proc-nodes. So now I can see at a glance what mode I am in from the screen. So, not confusing at all though all "switch modes" might seem like it at first.
But actually I use the extra modes quite rarely (mousetriggers more often, "redundant keys" practically never).
Anyway... last "game area" key: ALT is now a META for handling windows etc. It also allows me to control SDL (switching gamekeys A and B to joystick mode, panning, switching left nub and direction pad to joystick mode, etc.). And once again:good place for it, because of symmetry.
Now the main keyboard, it is practically totally rewritten as you can probably figure out already from the above:
Space is tab. I hate it that space takes up two keys. Easily reachable key gone to waste right there...
My numberkeys have the same shifted symbols as your regular PC US keyboard... took me all of 5 minutes to "unlearn" the odd Pandora default setup when I switched that... Numbers modded are functionkeys, of course.
Shift is left control, enter is right control (Why some of these changes? Answer to most: they are practical in case an emugame uses both and also reachable with both hands when I type on a desk).
LessThan is left ALT, GreaterThan is ALTGr (i.e. the right ALT).Fn is right shift (out of the way when thumbing, nice for the pinky on the desk).
The missing pieces are all behind the Fn-like Pandora modkey (or right trigger key).
Q is still Esc, but moving right from Q I got an actual numeric keypad while holding the mod. Again. nice for some sims. So: w,a,. --> keypad 7,4,1 etc. Keypad ends around halfway the keyboard, so g is ` and like its supposed to, shifted it gives a ~. Above it modded Y is INS, below it modded V is KPDOT. And after that I guess I'll just give you the symbols as it's pretty self explanatory:
uiop is -=\ and F12
hjkl is [];'
bnm is ,./
These work like in a PC US keyboard when shifted, so I often press both triggers, or when typing on a table just stick my thumb in Pandora and CTRL (they are nicely right there in the middle and next to each other, slighly distanced from others so no accidental presses.
Especially the keypad area gets very little use, but when I sorted the keyboard I kind of figured "what the heck" and dumped it there because I had so many keys to spare. In fact I even got some national characters and the symbol ½ mapped to some modifierkeys for convenience.
I might do one final improvement: numeric keypad lock for some games which use NE, SE, SW and NW constantly for controlling (some old PC games do... not very interesting ones, though...).
Just thought I'd share this info in case it gives anyone any ideas. Sharing the actual setup would be quite a bit trickier, since it is a very hacky combination of kernel modifications (some of which I would not put into production as-is, but hey, these are for me me me ;-), xmodmapping and even some code changes to my WM and SDL - it all really interoperates and is not out-of-the-box usable as parts.
Oh... just looking at the original Pandora keys, I do not have brightness up/down - I got three levels, bright, medium, dim, which rotate by flicking the powerswitch right. And I don't do FnLocks ever... does anyone, really?-) So no key for that.
Powerswitch left puts my Pandora to low CPU speed, no WLAN, activate lockscreen, disable display. Returning powerswitch to middle wakes it up and asks for password.
Simply closing the lid keeps everything but the display up and running, usable when compiling or downloading...
But that last bit had nothing to do with keyboard. Sorry. Once again, I've rambled enough for now, ask in case you wonder about anything.
But I want to share what changes I made to the Pandora keymap to make it "just work" for me. I.e. this is what I use daily and this will give some idea of what I'll be doing to the Pyra too, in time...
The change described in a moment has been incremental in many ways: I tweaked it to this point, but am unlikely to tweak further as no new needs have popped up for quite a while...
So... you will want to look at a Pandora when reading this, I'm typing this on mine.
X in gamekeys is enter, Y is space (real nice in many games), A and B are left and right mouse by default, but also joystick 1 or 2, joystick 1 or right Amiga, it all depends on what I want at a given moment for a given game or emu...
Gamekeys can be switched to second mode with CTRL-PowerswitchFlipRight, they become what I tag as "redundant weirdo keys" sometimes needed for games: CapsLock, NumLock,ScrollLock,Break/SysRq. It is just easier to have these behind a switch than not at all or in some SDL trickery...
The Pandora key is a Fn-like modifier for me. So Pandora+Up,Down does PageUp and PageDown, Pandora+Left,Right is Home,End.
Pandora+A,B,Y,X are keypad minus, kpplus, kpdel and kpenter. The minus and plus have proven really practical for throttling in for example flightsims.
Pandora is modifier, because I can easily reach it with both of my thumbs from either side of the keyboard when tabletyping. This modifier is mapped to two keys: right trigger is also Pandora except when triggers are switched to mousekeys.
CTRL is left shift (again reachable symmetrically), left trigger is also left shift except when swithed to mousebutton. Having modifier next to shift is important because they are often pressed at the same time (learned the hard way... crampy days...).
Triggers are switchable to mousekeys with keycombo ALT-powerflip right.
Because of the two powerswitch flip modes, I had to expose those flips to dwm status bar and also to software (so I know they are not on when I type in a password to locked screen) I did this by adding a couple of integer reading/writing proc-nodes. So now I can see at a glance what mode I am in from the screen. So, not confusing at all though all "switch modes" might seem like it at first.
But actually I use the extra modes quite rarely (mousetriggers more often, "redundant keys" practically never).
Anyway... last "game area" key: ALT is now a META for handling windows etc. It also allows me to control SDL (switching gamekeys A and B to joystick mode, panning, switching left nub and direction pad to joystick mode, etc.). And once again:good place for it, because of symmetry.
Now the main keyboard, it is practically totally rewritten as you can probably figure out already from the above:
Space is tab. I hate it that space takes up two keys. Easily reachable key gone to waste right there...
My numberkeys have the same shifted symbols as your regular PC US keyboard... took me all of 5 minutes to "unlearn" the odd Pandora default setup when I switched that... Numbers modded are functionkeys, of course.
Shift is left control, enter is right control (Why some of these changes? Answer to most: they are practical in case an emugame uses both and also reachable with both hands when I type on a desk).
LessThan is left ALT, GreaterThan is ALTGr (i.e. the right ALT).Fn is right shift (out of the way when thumbing, nice for the pinky on the desk).
The missing pieces are all behind the Fn-like Pandora modkey (or right trigger key).
Q is still Esc, but moving right from Q I got an actual numeric keypad while holding the mod. Again. nice for some sims. So: w,a,. --> keypad 7,4,1 etc. Keypad ends around halfway the keyboard, so g is ` and like its supposed to, shifted it gives a ~. Above it modded Y is INS, below it modded V is KPDOT. And after that I guess I'll just give you the symbols as it's pretty self explanatory:
uiop is -=\ and F12
hjkl is [];'
bnm is ,./
These work like in a PC US keyboard when shifted, so I often press both triggers, or when typing on a table just stick my thumb in Pandora and CTRL (they are nicely right there in the middle and next to each other, slighly distanced from others so no accidental presses
.Especially the keypad area gets very little use, but when I sorted the keyboard I kind of figured "what the heck" and dumped it there because I had so many keys to spare. In fact I even got some national characters and the symbol ½ mapped to some modifierkeys for convenience.
I might do one final improvement: numeric keypad lock for some games which use NE, SE, SW and NW constantly for controlling (some old PC games do... not very interesting ones, though...).
Just thought I'd share this info in case it gives anyone any ideas. Sharing the actual setup would be quite a bit trickier, since it is a very hacky combination of kernel modifications (some of which I would not put into production as-is, but hey, these are for me me me ;-), xmodmapping and even some code changes to my WM and SDL - it all really interoperates and is not out-of-the-box usable as parts.
Oh... just looking at the original Pandora keys, I do not have brightness up/down - I got three levels, bright, medium, dim, which rotate by flicking the powerswitch right. And I don't do FnLocks ever... does anyone, really?-) So no key for that.
Powerswitch left puts my Pandora to low CPU speed, no WLAN, activate lockscreen, disable display. Returning powerswitch to middle wakes it up and asks for password.
Simply closing the lid keeps everything but the display up and running, usable when compiling or downloading...
But that last bit had nothing to do with keyboard. Sorry. Once again, I've rambled enough for now, ask in case you wonder about anything.
I like the concept of your layout (it's more or less an extension of the Pandora layout, with fixes for what was just wrong on the Pandora), but in my opinion it has too many arbitrary symbols that most people don't need at all: ± ¢ § ¶ µ ¥ £ ß and dead cedilla / dead ring are things that are just too arbitrary and unimportant (in my opinion) to deserve getting a label on the keymat. Dead cedilla is not very useful since those who need it will rather map a dedicated Ç (and perhaps Ş) somewhere. Same for dead ring: if you need that, you will rather map a dedicated Å somewhere. All of those currency symbols, I wonder who really uses all of those. Even if you do stuff with different currencies professionally or something, you're probably rather going to use abbreviations like USD and GBP than those symbols.Sorry, My revised keyboard layout... I got some feedback and there was still room for improvement
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdf33daff649f278104e533af4530f3f
It hurt my feelings to have to take the ß away from the S key and put it next to the B but I had to for consistancy in block dividing...
Hopefully you find it complete, easy to learn and work with, Pandora compatible in usage and easy on the eyes
No more double modifier keys so all those should be free for personal use.
In a sense, it does not hurt to have unnecessary symbols on the keymat: if you don't use them, you just don't use them. So it's mostly just a matter of æsthetics. But if you put important symbols like = on vowels, then you make it harder for people to map other things (like à or å or æ) on those vowels, because they have to start a recursive remapping nightmare.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
If you put anything on letterkeys you mess up convention. People expect third-level modifier+letterbutton to do something differently than any one single solution.
codifies
Very Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 360
Never used GBP instead of £ not just as £ is quicker
± µ would save me hitting compose sequences when making documentation
¥ why exclude the Japanese market
But is ß used in modern German?
Why would you assume what people expect, not my expectation at all...
± µ would save me hitting compose sequences when making documentation
¥ why exclude the Japanese market
But is ß used in modern German?
Its fine looking at it I immediately realised how it worked without confusion
Why would you assume what people expect, not my expectation at all...
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Because if you dictate that the third level modifier should do something, then it does _something else_ than the difference between already existing layouts. Which people come to expect.
A fixed map is limiting both for them, and its a quick way to shoot yourself in the leg, because its not as extencive, and you might even miss something.
Staying hidden on the third-level mods is the only way of being compatible.
A fixed map is limiting both for them, and its a quick way to shoot yourself in the leg, because its not as extencive, and you might even miss something.
Staying hidden on the third-level mods is the only way of being compatible.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Here its ß, if i cant have that i no longer know how to type.
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
Its only completely different because you make it so. It is possible to have nothing on the letterkeys.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
You are counting wrong, and that definition is still yours to define. What im saying is third level mods either are, or arent as per expected.
You could make it a sensible default, but printing them is not that.
Edit: for reference http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fe9096f8e4a39c98c386dc24912bd967
Getting a keyboard that doesnt work or look like a toy _even though_ its on a mobile device, would be a pleasant suprise. Allowing more people to type the way they know how.
You could make it a sensible default, but printing them is not that.
Edit: for reference http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fe9096f8e4a39c98c386dc24912bd967
Getting a keyboard that doesnt work or look like a toy _even though_ its on a mobile device, would be a pleasant suprise. Allowing more people to type the way they know how.
Edit2:
If you dont have the keys to the right of P and L, then the user doesnt have any expected place to press äüö for german. Further asking the user to both press a mod to get them, and in the wrong place, doesnt explain why those keys couldnt be there in the first place.
If you go with a shortened A-Z layout, and meta instead of altGr and meta, then you end up with a lot of problems on the user-end.
If you go with AltGr and Meta, you get a known drawback in that its harder to press F-keys, since you have to press a button thats on the keyboard instead of the shoulder in between.
You get the benefit of AltGrmods not having to be printed, which is a cleaner approach and the AltGr mods can work as expected without an implied printed default.
You get to pick between the two.
Looking at the demographic, about half the users need something more than reduced layout, as seen in first question in this vote and nr7 here.
if you implement more of the typewriter-keys, you can at the same time get a keyboard thats more familiar to the english by using their defaults there.
Of the people that use F-keys. You inconvenience them when typing F-keys, in return for making the keyboard look cleaner.
If you dont have the keys to the right of P and L, then the user doesnt have any expected place to press äüö for german. Further asking the user to both press a mod to get them, and in the wrong place, doesnt explain why those keys couldnt be there in the first place.
If you go with a shortened A-Z layout, and meta instead of altGr and meta, then you end up with a lot of problems on the user-end.
If you go with AltGr and Meta, you get a known drawback in that its harder to press F-keys, since you have to press a button thats on the keyboard instead of the shoulder in between.
You get the benefit of AltGrmods not having to be printed, which is a cleaner approach and the AltGr mods can work as expected without an implied printed default.
You get to pick between the two.
Looking at the demographic, about half the users need something more than reduced layout, as seen in first question in this vote and nr7 here.
if you implement more of the typewriter-keys, you can at the same time get a keyboard thats more familiar to the english by using their defaults there.
Of the people that use F-keys. You inconvenience them when typing F-keys, in return for making the keyboard look cleaner.
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I don't want to exclude any market, but I don't think we need explicit £ ¥ € ¢ symbols labeled on the keyboard just to "include markets". Why not
₡ ден دج .د.ب د.ع د.ك ل.د дин د.ت د.م. د.إ Ð ₫ 
ƒ ₲ ₴ ₭ 
₦ ₱ ج.م. 
₪ ৳ 
₮ ₩ and all those other currency symbols out there? Why exclude the Indian market? Why exclude the Russian market? And so on I'm a European but I have plenty of keyboards without an € symbol labeled and that's fine for me. I also have plenty of keyboards without ± and µ keys (in fact, I would have to search hard to find one). There are other mathematical symbols and other Greek letters that I would consider to be just as important.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
The notion that someone would pass up a device over not seeing a local currency-symbol when they arent available to type on the device baffles me. Who are those people?
Eight Bit
Hardcore Member
Thanks for the feedback.I like the concept of your layout (it's more or less an extension of the Pandora layout, with fixes for what was just wrong on the Pandora), but in my opinion it has too many arbitrary symbols that most people don't need at all: ± ¢ § ¶ µ ¥ £ ß and dead cedilla / dead ring are things that are just too arbitrary and unimportant (in my opinion) to deserve getting a label on the keymat. Dead cedilla is not very useful since those who need it will rather map a dedicated Ç (and perhaps Ş) somewhere. Same for dead ring: if you need that, you will rather map a dedicated Å somewhere. All of those currency symbols, I wonder who really uses all of those. Even if you do stuff with different currencies professionally or something, you're probably rather going to use abbreviations like USD and GBP than those symbols.Sorry, My revised keyboard layout... I got some feedback and there was still room for improvement
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bdf33daff649f278104e533af4530f3f
It hurt my feelings to have to take the ß away from the S key and put it next to the B but I had to for consistancy in block dividing...
Hopefully you find it complete, easy to learn and work with, Pandora compatible in usage and easy on the eyes
No more double modifier keys so all those should be free for personal use.
In a sense, it does not hurt to have unnecessary symbols on the keymat: if you don't use them, you just don't use them. So it's mostly just a matter of æsthetics. But if you put important symbols like = on vowels, then you make it harder for people to map other things (like à or å or æ) on those vowels, because they have to start a recursive remapping nightmare.
I'll try to explain a little why I made the choices that I did. I know some of the less important symbols are on there but this basis-set includes just about every symbol to compose west european letters with.
As you might know dutch consists of many languages and we learn to read and write dutch, english, german and french in school by default. I guess that's why the dutch keyboard lay-out is so internationally oriented and diacritic heavy.
Almost every symbol that's on my standard dutch keyboard is in this lay-out. The only symbols I'm missing are ¦ ¬ « » ¹ ² ³ ¼ ½ ¾. I could try to cram them in there somehow but didn't see the need for that, I never ever use those and it would just clutter it up.
And yes, ofcourse [Meta+C] for a ç is a little bit faster than [Meta+O]-[C] like in my proposal but atleast all possibilities are there at a glance and findable without mapping custom keys. Same goes for ëäöïüéáóíõãàèìòùç etc. That are a lot of characters I don't have to put on the keymat because the dead diacritics are on there, labeled and well.
The ß is a bit different in that regards but I think it's still a pretty important character. Iirc in modern german SS is used rather than ß but it's still a very comon so I just had to put it on there somehow. ED can maybe shed some light on that
If the german majority says it doesn't have to be on the keymat I guess I can come up with something else to put there in it's place As mentioned earlier I also removed all double modifier keys (Shift+Meta) so that entire layer would be empty to put composed characters on. If people want a ç underneath the C key, I guess it can be mapped to [shit+Meta+C]. Right?
As far as the Valuta is concerned, why not put it on there?
Not everyone will use them all but I use the £ $ and € quite often myself, I guess the Japanese/Asian pandora users will use the ¥ like I use the € and the £?
I think this lay-out is english, german, dutch, belgian and french user friendly and does not exclude italian and spanish either.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
You dont compose letters, you type them. What kind of majority was it that was confused about needing more than reduced layout in the vote? I dont understand what kind of logic you employ to arrive at that.
Edit: First of all, shift+AltGr already does something too. And for all intents and purposes, shift+meta isnt as unencumbered as mod is.
Maybe your layout is dutch friendly, but what does that really mean. Maybe its useful for someone who needs to speak many languages. German, italian and french users et al on the other hand speak predominantly their language, and then english.
You need to look at it from the point of view of each of those users, because its a singular person that buys 1 device for 1 person. Not a hive-mind deciding on a purchase-contract for a national or multinational device.
Edit: First of all, shift+AltGr already does something too. And for all intents and purposes, shift+meta isnt as unencumbered as mod is.
Maybe your layout is dutch friendly, but what does that really mean. Maybe its useful for someone who needs to speak many languages. German, italian and french users et al on the other hand speak predominantly their language, and then english.
You need to look at it from the point of view of each of those users, because its a singular person that buys 1 device for 1 person. Not a hive-mind deciding on a purchase-contract for a national or multinational device.
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It would have taken less than 15 seconds to research usage of ß in written German: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F
Please refrain from posting when you are not prepared to do even minimal research.
Please refrain from posting when you are not prepared to do even minimal research.
Last edited by a moderator:
Eight Bit
Hardcore Member
It's about creating a single keymat that makes a device easy to use for as many people as possible.
ED's criteria
And it's a Pandora compatible lay-out too, which could be handy with PND compatibility if that will happen
ED's criteria
- The keyboard should be standard enough to be used by every normal user
- It should be balanced between text typing and coding
- It should have most of the keys a normal keyboard has (i.e. Pandora keyboard has issues with DosBox).
- The main languages used where the Pandora sold are English, French and German. It should support these languages as good as possible (with English being the main one)
- We should have a maximum of three characters per key: One with a single keypress, one with Shift and one with AltGr (which replaces the old Fn-Key)
- The most-used keys should get the best positions
And it's a Pandora compatible lay-out too, which could be handy with PND compatibility if that will happen
