Conclusion / synthesis of the keyboard poll results

[bubblebee]

@grench I think your remarks/comments against _wb_ are very short-tempered. Please calm down. Everybody wants to help ED. Especially _wb_ has always been very involved in the keyboard discussions and I'm very glad to experts like him.

 

[SNESFAN]

 

[Grench]

It is not at all like layout 2, which has Delete/Backspace on the action buttons, a dedicated -_ key, Esc at Fn+Q, Caps Lock at Fn+Tab, F11/F12 at Fn+O/P, a dedicated Pause key and a hardware key, Shift and Fn on the left, Insert on Fn+Space, and labeled GREEK and MATH keys at Fn+G and Fn+M. The only thing I took from that was the option to have unlabeled GREEK and MATH keys at Shift+Fn+G/M.

Please, someone not _wb_ or myself LOOK at _wb_'s current proposal. Compare it to Layouts #1, #2, #7 and #10. Of those, which does it most closely resemble?

_wb_ - you are not understanding subtleties of aesthetics. Your layout #2 had giant capital German letters, in most cases those German letters were placed larger than the English. The 3 winning layouts had lowercase, less prominently printed German letters. The winning layout differentiated the German letters from both English AND other non-English letters by size and position on the key. Apparently you assume these aesthetic elements to be unimportant, as you have completely ignored them.

As you admitted above, you utilized YOUR template with YOUR font sizes, placements and capital German characters and simply arranged the letters to your current objective. You utterly ignored the aesthetics and design themes.

If you're going to do this, do it right. Start with the #7 template above and make SMALL changes where appropriate WITHIN the themes that won.

 

[Butterkeks]

It is not at all like layout 2, which has Delete/Backspace on the action buttons, a dedicated -_ key, Esc at Fn+Q, Caps Lock at Fn+Tab, F11/F12 at Fn+O/P, a dedicated Pause key and a hardware key, Shift and Fn on the left, Insert on Fn+Space, and labeled GREEK and MATH keys at Fn+G and Fn+M. The only thing I took from that was the option to have unlabeled GREEK and MATH keys at Shift+Fn+G/M.

Please, someone not _wb_ or myself LOOK at _wb_'s current proposal. Compare it to Layouts #1, #2, #7 and #10. Of those, which does it most closely resemble?


_wb_ - you are not understanding subtleties of aesthetics. Your layout #2 had giant capital German letters, in most cases those German letters were placed larger than the English. The 3 winning layouts had lowercase, less prominently printed German letters. The winning layout differentiated the German letters from both English AND other non-English letters by size and position on the key. Apparently you assume these aesthetic elements to be unimportant, as you have completely ignored them.


As you admitted above, you utilized YOUR template with YOUR font sizes, placements and capital German characters and simply arranged the letters to your current objective. You utterly ignored the aesthetics and design themes.


If you're going to do this, do it right. Start with the #7 template above and make SMALL changes where appropriate WITHIN the themes that won.

Calm down. It's just a keyboard after all. And even if though this proposal does contain a few parts of layout #2 (why do you think it happened intentionally on bad purpose?),

the world isn't going to end 'cause of that.

Anyway, I wouldn't say that it's just a copy of #2 - actually it does indeed resemble 1, 7 and 10 more than that, in my opinion.

If you want a *perfect* layout with *perfect* aesthetics you might wanna create your own.

PS: Aesthetics were definitely not important during the poll (and shouldn't be here, either):

3. When choosing your favourite layout, do NOT be affected by the labels of the keys. We're ONLY choosing the functional layout right now - it does NOT mean stuff will be printed exactly like you can see it on the keymat

 

[Urben]

Uh Grench, you might want to notice that aesthetics like font, color, whatever was not the point of the final poll, but the functional layout.

It really doesnt matter which font or capital or not capital option he choses. Either you are mistaken about the poll's purpose or you run out of arguments ...

3. When choosing your favourite layout, do NOT be affected by the labels of the keys. We're ONLY choosing the functional layout right now - it does NOT mean stuff will be printed exactly like you can see it on the keymat (i.e. L-Shift will not be printed on the keymat, it will be Shift. The function will be the left key though)

EDIT: woop too slow

 

[Natsu]

I didn't get to vote and I didn't read this thread, but I'll read it a bit later. I actually like Layout 7.

I don't understand why the arrow is above the B action button and not like A. Why "suspend" and not power?

I do like having the Logo on the super key. It could light up too.

 

[Grench]

It really doesnt matter which font or capital or not capital option he choses. Either you are mistaken about the poll's purpose or you run out of arguments ...

3. When choosing your favourite layout, do NOT be affected by the labels of the keys. We're ONLY choosing the functional layout right now - it does NOT mean stuff will be printed exactly like you can see it on the keymat (i.e. L-Shift will not be printed on the keymat, it will be Shift. The function will be the left key though)

EDIT: woop too slow

Actually, the capital/not on the Fn layer DOES matter. The lowercase German letters are literal to Fn+key actions. _wb_ has printed the uppercase, which SHOULD be the Fn+Shift+key result. ED explicitly stated that the keys should NOT be labeled for Fn+Shift definitions. So, at best those capital German labels on _wb_'s new layout are typos.

The whole point of these discussions and the voting was to determine what was going to be printed to the keys. None of the winning layouts had uppercase German letters printed to the keys. Those are different symbols.

 

[Grench]

I didn't get to vote and I didn't read this thread, but I'll read it a bit later. I actually like Layout 7.

I don't understand why the arrow is above the B action button and not like A. Why "suspend" and not power?

I do like having the Logo on the super key. It could light up too.

You're in good company. A lot of us liked #7 better.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/90af356f62ad4e5cc98b56983aef01fa

The arrows above the action button labels are literally the key functions. In this layout they are given what are theoretically international symbols for their function. The main 4 function just like they did on the Pandora. You're right in that the symbol/letter and which one is 'on top' is inconsistent in the example layout. That should be fixed going into production - which way is 'right' is up to ED.

A = ⇤ = Home

B = ⇥ = End

X = ⇟ = PgDn

Y = ⇞ = BgUp

Ins = Insert

⌦ = Delete

Suspend/power. This button will likely have a multi-function purpose.

When the Pyra is off, press it once to power the Pyra on.

When the Pyra is on, press it once to go into standby.

When the Pyra is on, hold Fn/Meta and press the power button to go into suspend to disk.

When the Pyra is on, hold the power button for 3+ seconds and the Pyra shuts down.

When the Pyra is locked up and otherwise non-responsive, a to be defined button combination will force it to reboot (this hasn't really been discussed yet, but will be needed).

I agree that the logo should be on the Super key - and it should be back lit to the alternate keyboard color.

 

[Grench]

If the objective is to put an F11/F12 key 'in the attic', this is probably how it should be done.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a490f07f1b75f50f4a63323565ea2717

Much like Esc should live on the top left, F11/F12 should live on the top right.

/ and ? on the Fn/Meta layer were moved further left - as that was a point of contention.

Warning on the above: For reasons I don't understand, ED seems adamantly opposed to the idea of having all 4 brightness controls on one button. As I have it in the linked layout, it would work like this:

Normal key = Screen backlight up. Go past 'max' and it loops back to off to continue going 'up'.

Shift+key = Screen backlight down. Go past 'off' and it loops back to max to continue going 'down'.

Meta/Fn+key = keyboard backlight up. Go past 'max' and it loops back to off to continue going 'up'.

Meta/Fn+Shift+key = keyboard backlight down. Go past 'off' and it loops back to max to continue going 'down'.

All Fn/Meta layer non-English character support should remain lowercase as all of the Meta/Fn+key combinations should result in the literal character printed and NOT the Fn/Meta+Shift+key character result.

Again - start with the top layout and make slow changes.

What is left that needs to be tweaked?

 

[Caine]

I don't understand why the arrow is above the B action button and not like A.

Minor mistake by the author, I reckon. The layouts are not representative for how the actual labels will look like anyway (they merely indicate what key does what).

 

[Urben]

So, at best those capital German labels on _wb_'s new layout are typos.

What the hell. I'm looking down on my german keyboard and the ÄÖÜ are capitals just as the rest of the keyboard letters.Even if they were in the Fn level of my keyboard I would expect them to be printed in capitals.

OR we replace all other letters with lowercases, too. If thats what you want.

Also, this is still just a question of aesthetics because we all still agree that pressing Fn+key will produce ä. Thats the function.

I'm out, can't take this serious. I see your point that the whole thing has to come to an end but this is ridiculous.

 

[Grench]

So, at best those capital German labels on _wb_'s new layout are typos.

What the hell. I'm looking down on my german keyboard and the ÄÖÜ are capitals just as the rest of the keyboard letters.Even if they were in the Fn level of my keyboard I would expect them to be printed in capitals.

OR we replace all other letters with lowercases, too. If thats what you want.

Also, this is still just a question of aesthetics because we all still agree that pressing Fn+key will produce ä. Thats the function.

I'm out, can't take this serious. I see your point that the whole thing has to come to an end but this is ridiculous.

It is ridiculous. However, ED specifically mandated that no Fn/Meta layer key label should have it's Fn/Meta+Shift+key function as it's primary label. Further to that end - the layout that ED created himself had these all labeled in lowercase. It winds up being a cleaner look with the German characters less 'in your face', but personally I have nothing against making broad and extensive use of the Fn+Shift layer of the keyboard and activating that via chorded Fn+shift keys.

My favorite was Layout #6. I have nothing against labeling German letters as capitals - and even having them on the top layer where there is room. However, ED spoke, the population voted and we are where we are with #7 and lowercase non-English letters to match the literal Fn/Meta+key result.

 

[ible]

If the objective is to put an F11/F12 key 'in the attic', this is probably how it should be done.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a490f07f1b75f50f4a63323565ea2717

Much like Esc should live on the top left, F11/F12 should live on the top right.

/ and ? on the Fn/Meta layer were moved further left - as that was a point of contention.

Warning on the above: For reasons I don't understand, ED seems adamantly opposed to the idea of having all 4 brightness controls on one button.

He said it in the thread: to make it easy for newbs. Now who's the one going against ED's wishes?

Not that I don't like the layout (though I think _wb_'s is nicer), but you are being inconsistent here.

Capital/lower-case german letters is an aesthetic problem, not a real problem. I don't think we need a poll on whether to capitalize the German letters or not.

 

[khalismur]

Capital/lower-case german letters is an aesthetic problem, not a real problem. I don't think we need a poll on whether to capitalize the German letters or not.

Agreed. üöä are lower case in my swiss keyboard and I think usually upper case in the standard german and austrian ones. Why make a big deal out of it?

 

[Grench]

If the objective is to put an F11/F12 key 'in the attic', this is probably how it should be done.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a490f07f1b75f50f4a63323565ea2717


Much like Esc should live on the top left, F11/F12 should live on the top right.


/ and ? on the Fn/Meta layer were moved further left - as that was a point of contention.


Warning on the above: For reasons I don't understand, ED seems adamantly opposed to the idea of having all 4 brightness controls on one button.

He said it in the thread: to make it easy for newbs. Now who's the one going against ED's wishes?


Not that I don't like the layout (though I think _wb_'s is nicer), but you are being inconsistent here.


Capital/lower-case german letters is an aesthetic problem, not a real problem. I don't think we need a poll on whether to capitalize the German letters or not.

Sheesh - how many caveats do I have to make in that? IFF we NEED to move F11 and F12 to the 'attic', then SOMETHING has to change/move in the existing 'attic'. I am simply presenting an alternative - with proper warnings and caveats as seen in the message that you conveniently edited out. There is a big IF in there. It is an alternative to get that F11 in the attic feature without impacting the rest of the layout, unlike the _wb_ alternative that remaps the whole attic to make room for it - which throws key definitions to the Fn/Meta layer of the brightness buttons - which then also hijacks any hope of using that extra brightness button for anything practical.

If the objective is to put an F11/F12 key 'in the attic', this is probably how it should be done.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a490f07f1b75f50f4a63323565ea2717


Much like Esc should live on the top left, F11/F12 should live on the top right.


/ and ? on the Fn/Meta layer were moved further left - as that was a point of contention.


Warning on the above: For reasons I don't understand, ED seems adamantly opposed to the idea of having all 4 brightness controls on one button. As I have it in the linked layout, it would work like this:


Normal key = Screen backlight up. Go past 'max' and it loops back to off to continue going 'up'.


Shift+key = Screen backlight down. Go past 'off' and it loops back to max to continue going 'down'.


Meta/Fn+key = keyboard backlight up. Go past 'max' and it loops back to off to continue going 'up'.


Meta/Fn+Shift+key = keyboard backlight down. Go past 'off' and it loops back to max to continue going 'down'.


All Fn/Meta layer non-English character support should remain lowercase as all of the Meta/Fn+key combinations should result in the literal character printed and NOT the Fn/Meta+Shift+key character result.


Again - start with the top layout and make slow changes.


What is left that needs to be tweaked?

This whole thread/argument/etc is a prime example of why we should all just back the F off and let ED do as ED stated his plans were. None of us can come to consensus on anything. That led to pages and pages of build threads. ED did a poll to end it. Here we are nearly a week later with yet another new thread, a whole new _wb_ layout, incorporating 'features' of layouts that got less than 10% of the vote and fighting about crap that doesn't matter beyond the facts that ED asked for it that way and the voters selected it that way - so it should STAY that way unless there is a damn good reason to change it.  F11 and F12 can live quite happily on P and Enter.

 

[comradekingu]

A compelling case has been made for widened space-key being bad for typing languages, efficiency, button-actuation and symmetry, regardless of all people this represents, it seems "compose" now makes up the area of the second button.

When it comes down to judging this particular book by its content, rather than its cover, that is not better, nor is there any data indicating that anyone thinks so. Can we at least fix this issue?

 

[pmprog]

Shift+key = Screen backlight down. Go past 'off' and it loops back to max to continue going 'down'.
...

Meta/Fn+Shift+key = keyboard backlight down. Go past 'off' and it loops back to max to continue going 'down'

What? Please no; If you get to off - stay off. There's nothing worse than having to count how many times you have to press brightness down to get the screen off. Brightness doesn't need to wrap

 

[comradekingu]

If this "Meta/Fn" is on a shoulder, that sounds like another way for it to produce unexpected results.

If there is only one way to get it to max, being the wrong way around a leap of hurdles, getting there isn't obvious. Nor is there an apparent opposite thing to try, but you can get varying results there too i imagine.

 

[_wb_]

Capital/lower-case german letters is an aesthetic problem, not a real problem. I don't think we need a poll on whether to capitalize the German letters or not.

Agreed. üöä are lower case in my swiss keyboard and I think usually upper case in the standard german and austrian ones. Why make a big deal out of it?

I think the convention is as follows:

If the accented letters are available only as lowercase letters (like on a Swiss, Italian or French keyboard), then the label is lowercase. You can get only the lowercase letter, because if you combine it with Shift, you get a different symbol.

If the accented letters are available both as lowercase and uppercase letters (like on a German or Scandinavian keyboard), then the label is uppercase. Obviously the idea is that without shift you get the lowercase letter and with shift you get the uppercase letter. Just like all the other letter keys, only the uppercase letter gets labeled.

All standard keyboards around the world seem to follow this convention. That is the reason why I also followed it. Because it is indeed not just the lowercase éèàçüöä that are available, but also the uppercase ÉÈÀÇÜÖÄ. I made an exception for ß, where I used the "lowercase" label because the uppercase ẞ is rarely used and not available on standard German keyboards, although there is nothing that prevents us from allowing Shift+ß to produce ẞ.

Now as to the visual aspect of it: I agree with Grench that it's a good idea to make those German and French letters less prominent. Using lowercase letters is only one way to do that though. I think it's better to use a thinner (less bold) and smaller font, and that's what I did: I use font size 6 (whatever that means) and bold for the main labels (including the ASCII symbols on the Fn layer), and font size 5 without bold for the French/German letters. Perhaps I should have used font size 4 or 3 instead. I admit that I didn't give it that much thought. I was working on the functional layout and not the typography.

 

[rygD]

These are some things I like from this thread so far (I don't remember anything standing out on previous pages, but I may chack later):

⌦Suspend/power. This button will likely have a multi-function purpose.
When the Pyra is off, press it once to power the Pyra on.
When the Pyra is on, press it once to go into standby.
When the Pyra is on, hold Fn/Meta and press the power button to go into suspend to disk.
When the Pyra is on, hold the power button for 3+ seconds and the Pyra shuts down.
When the Pyra is locked up and otherwise non-responsive, a to be defined button combination will force it to reboot (this hasn't really been discussed yet, but will be needed).

I agree that the logo should be on the Super key - and it should be back lit to the alternate keyboard color.

OR we replace all other letters with lowercases, too.

 Edit: I like the look of keyboards with all lowercase letters and a nice font.  Really, a good font choice helps make a keyboard look nice or "fun".  It isn't important from a functional standpoint (and not relevant to the topic unless ED will consider a sleek sans font), it just adds to the look. Edit edit: Screw conventions unless they give some crucial information.  If lowercase letters are more accurate, and an option ED is open to, might as well go for that.
 
 

A compelling case has been made for widened space-key being bad for typing languages, efficiency, button-actuation and symmetry, regardless of all people this represents, it seems "compose" now makes up the area of the second button.
 
When it comes down to judging this particular book by its content, rather than its cover, that is not better, nor is there any data indicating that anyone thinks so. Can we at least fix this issue?

The width of space has been a concern for many of us for a long time.  You know this, and are the only one that stood by fixing that issue.  I still doubt ED is going to change it, even though it is probably the easiest thing to fix (unless the OK has been given on the molds).  Just add plastic between the halves on the case and make it like all other keys on the keymat.  I can't remember if more people felt additional language/layout support was a bigger concern, or if being able to identify the spacebar from across a room while quickly glancing at the Pyra was.  Still a good idea to fix it, however it is unlikely.  With the new keymat design it is unlikely it can be as easily user modified as when the insertable keycaps were a possibility (I do like the solid plastic keycaps with no translucent border, though).
 
 

If this "Meta/Fn" is on a shoulder, that sounds like another way for it to produce unexpected results.
 
If there is only one way to get it to max, being the wrong way around a leap of hurdles, getting there isn't obvious. Nor is there an apparent opposite thing to try, but you can get varying results there too i imagine.

I am not following you.  Going all the way up or down should wrap around when it reaches the extreme.  All the way up eventually takes you to off and you continue from there, all the way down eventually takes it to max brigthness after the display goes off.
 
I am fine with 2 brightness controls as the default.  If I end up not using them both I may remap the one that lowers brightness.  Unless I am trying to conserve battery life I will only need 2 settings each for display and keyboard:  display at lowest before off and lowest I can easily see in direct sunlight on a clear summer day, and keyboard light off and lowest I can easily see in a dimly lit room.  A toggle for each would work better for me than a bunch of different levels.