Conclusion / synthesis of the keyboard poll results


That leads to an interesting question... Would it be practical to get multiple keymat layout prototypes made so ED can try each of them out and see what works and what needs tweaking? Perhaps let people try out a couple of layouts at GamesCom to get feedback based on real life usage...


Just a thought.


-Neelix
Trying something out for a couple of minutes at something like GamesCom is not going to give very useful feedback imo. In real life, it takes at least a few hours to get used to a layout, and probably a few days or even weeks before you can really tell the actual inherent qualities and problems of a layout.

Also take into account that the layout proposals tend to agree on the positions of the most frequently used keys, and they mostly only differ in the details like the position of the Fn symbols. This makes it even harder to compare the different proposals by actually trying them out in real life usage.

We are lucky this time that we already have the experience of the Pandora to start from. That makes it much easier to imagine the potential advantages and disadvantages of hypothetical keymat layouts.
 
a couple of minutes at something like GamesCom is not going to give very useful feedback imo
Well it's MASSIVELY more useful to have something in hands for 10 minutes than "Air discussing" stuff on paper/boards for 100 pages without anything tangible to put fingers on.  
 
The keymap wont be ready to gamescom, not even a dummy with the plastic caps.

Btw I would be very happy with the layout in OPs posting.
 
Btw I would be very happy with the layout in OPs posting.
Me too. In my opinion _wb_ did a good job of unifying the strong aspects of the various layouts.I really hope EvilDragon retains the position of ( and ). He stated he wanted to put them somewhere else.
 
Here's another idea? How about a truce. How about no new layouts - not even permutations of existing, until ED states what he wants done next? I realize you're doing that whole free speech thing, but the poll wasn't even over and you started creating new layouts.

Let it breathe a bit? Let's find out what ED wants done from here forward?
 So you want us to stop trying to make progress until ED gives us the green light? What would be the advantage of such a waiting period?
No, I want you to respect ED.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/18315-keymat-layout-the-final-poll/?p=392081/URL]

ED Posted 18 July 2015 - 12:15 AM

And once again, this has moved away from being a poll where the normal users should only vote and maybe explain why they chosen what into another keyboard layout discussion thread with more new layouts and the same people who were discussing the keyboard layouts for months now are discussing everything here once again.

It seems the only way to deal with this is wait for the outcome of this poll, filter the reasons why users chose what out of this thread and create the final layout without further discussions from those results.

It will be over soon. Period.
He was pretty clear that he wanted NO further discussions and NO further or additional layouts.

You posted your next layout version 2.5 hours after he made that statement.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/18315-keymat-layout-the-final-poll/?p=392090/URL]

Then you have gone on to post 2 more versions in the poll thread and now have taken on the authority to create a "Conclusion / synthesis of the keyboard poll results" thread - and posted yet more layouts. Did ED ask you to lead such an effort? Did he ask for yet more layouts or for you to perform the task that he laid out for himself?

If ED does as he said and creates a layout that is 'done', you and others here who are 'continuing development' are in effect creating layouts to compete with ED - which will mean more controversy when ED shows us his 'final' version - which will set off more angst.

I have ideas too - I'm refraining in respect to ED. You have decided to merge your own pet ideas into the 'winning' layouts - bad plan. I'm anxious to create a fix to your fix - but I'm holding back.

If ED sets us loose again, I'm all for diving back in. Otherwise, I think what you are doing here is disrespectful and could actually be damaging.

So, out of respect for ED's stated wishes, I request that you or another moderator please lock this thread (and the 4 more likely to pop up) until ED either requests more input or sets us loose again. Otherwise, at this point, further 'discussion and development' is likely to be detrimental to the final outcome.
 
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As an open discussion forum, I also like _wb_'s idea. He tried to design an unbiased layout from the poll. Of course one can never completely refrain from expressing his own marks and opinions when translating, synthesising or summarizing something.

However, his statement 'So please don't (re-)introduce new/different layout ideas here' was somewhat unfair, but otherwise I believe this thread is useful.

Don't forget that if ED wants, he can just ignore this and reach his decision based on the poll thread!
 
However, his statement 'So please don't (re-)introduce new/different layout ideas here' was somewhat unfair, but otherwise I believe this thread is useful.
I meant: please don't (re-)introduce new/different layout ideas that are incompatible with the winning layouts of the poll, e.g. layouts without a number row or with a left-aligned QWERTY. I added that statement to avoid inviting discussions that go in circles.

I started this thread to help ED with the "finetuning" of the keymat design. He is of course free to ignore this thread.
 
Except if he ignores this thread and reveals his ideal based on the poll results and a number of people start complaining that they liked yours better.
 
However, his statement 'So please don't (re-)introduce new/different layout ideas here' was somewhat unfair, but otherwise I believe this thread is useful.
 I meant: please don't (re-)introduce new/different layout ideas that are incompatible with the winning layouts of the poll, e.g. layouts without a number row or with a left-aligned QWERTY. I added that statement to avoid inviting discussions that go in circles.

I started this thread to help ED with the "finetuning" of the keymat design. He is of course free to ignore this thread.
Since we've had 2 mods post in apparently not wanting to shut this down, I may as well post my opinion.

I started this thread to help ED with the "finetuning" of the keymat design.
No, you really didn't. You may be telling yourself that you did it for those reasons but look at reality.
NONE of the top 3 keyboards incorporate your Greek and Math symbols shifting idea, yet you included it in your 'synthesis'.

NONE of the top 3 keyboards incorporate F11 on the attic (top) row. One comment that ED thought that was cool though, and here it is.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had the keyboard backlight on the Fn layer. You put it on the shift layer.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had pause as a primary top level key in the attic row. You put it on the Fn layer.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had F11 at Fn+P and 2/3 of them had F12 on Enter. You moved these both to the attic keys. NONE of the top 3 had F11 and F12 up there.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards kept the non-English letters mostly confined to the 2nd row, yet you chose the lowest ranked of the 3's positioning of these keys and ruined the theme and aesthetics of the two lower symbol rows that people liked. Now there are German letters blended into the symbols.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f6ce9cc204bf2037187d57c9485f740isn't a synthesis. It is your latest layout being re-filtered into and over the top of the winning layouts.

Frankly, you didn't follow your own rules that you laid out in the start of this thread. What you proposed is VERY different and a pretty big divergence in very substantial ways from the top 3.

If you're going to do this, start with those 3, in order of votes (start with 1 as template), and make SMALL changes to converge the layouts. No additional ideas, no other concepts not already present - when in doubt, don't change it.

Some convergence isn't a bad idea, but you've rather jumped the shark at this point.

Except if he ignores this thread and reveals his ideal based on the poll results and a number of people start complaining that they liked yours better.
Exactly.
 
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While Grench may be correct, I just want to say that I love the idea of having the dedicated F11 key. I have purposely avoided the layout discussions up to now, but I switch fullscreen on/off all the time on my Pandora and definitely would appreciate that dedicated key.

Apps that regularly benefit from F11 for me: MyPaint, Internet Browsers(all), Comix, Xournal, Geany, SMPlayer
 
While Grench may be correct, I just want to say that I love the idea of having the dedicated F11 key. I have purposely avoided the layout discussions up to now, but I switch fullscreen on/off all the time on my Pandora and definitely would appreciate that dedicated key.

Apps that regularly benefit from F11 for me: MyPaint, Internet Browsers(all), Comix, Xournal, Geany, SMPlayer
May be F11/F12 should be added to the attic row, but a wholesale alteration of the keyboard layout isn't needed to make that happen. Lighting controls (all 4) could be contained in a single button - which would open up a whole button for just F11/F12 without changing anything else. BUT it would also require people to search for it (at least the first time) as it would be broken away from the rest of the F1-F10 keys. It shouldn't require more than the absolute minimum changes to 'make it happen'.

The / and ? keys were a point of contention. Maybe they should move to the left side of the lower two rows. That can be done without disturbing the overall theme. That isn't a bad change either.

The idea, though, is to keep the changes MINOR and within the thematic basis of #7, adding in features from #1 and MAYBE some from #10. Anything else is 'creating new layouts'.
 
Except if he ignores this thread and reveals his ideal based on the poll results and a number of people start complaining that they liked yours better.

Well yes, but no matter what ED does, there can always be people who start complaining. If he takes layout 7 exactly as is, some people (perhaps even including people who proposed or voted for layout 7) might complain that he should have done more to take properties of the runner-ups into account. If he modifies layout 7, some people will complain that he shouldn't have touched it. And so on.

I still like to think that this thread does more to help ED than to make things hard. That is, if we don't waste too many posts on meta-discussions about the usefulness and potential dangers of this discussion.

I started this thread to help ED with the "finetuning" of the keymat design.
No, you really didn't. You may be telling yourself that you did it for those reasons but look at reality.

NONE of the top 3 keyboards incorporate your Greek and Math symbols shifting idea, yet you included it in your 'synthesis'.
No I didn't. My synthesis does not have labels for GREEK and MATH. Those who still want it, will have to configure it on something like Fn+Shift+G/M, unlabeled.

NONE of the top 3 keyboards incorporate F11 on the attic (top) row. One comment that ED thought that was cool though, and here it is.
It's not just ED who liked F11 up top.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had the keyboard backlight on the Fn layer. You put it on the shift layer.
Does it make a big difference whether it is on the Shift or Fn layer? Would you like it better if Pause and CapsLock were on the Shift layer instead?

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had pause as a primary top level key in the attic row. You put it on the Fn layer.
Right. I haven't seen any reactions of people voting for layout 7 or 1 because of their primary Pause key, so I assumed it is fine to move it to the Fn layer. The Pandora didn't even have a Pause key, and on most laptop keyboards it's either missing or at an Fn layer.


Do you have particular applications in mind where a dedicated Pause key would be important?


We could make Pause a dedicated key up top and put F11/F12 on Backspace/Enter if you like, it's just that according to how I read the poll thread, people are more interested in a dedicated F11 key than in a dedicated Pause key.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards kept the non-English letters mostly confined to the 2nd row, yet you chose the lowest ranked of the 3's positioning of these keys and ruined the theme and aesthetics of the two lower symbol rows that people liked. Now there are German letters blended into the symbols.
You mean the öä below ü like on a German keyboard? This is from layout 1, which is the second-highest ranked layout. People have said that they like that arrangement for the German letters.


All of the top-3 layouts have non-English letters on the ASDF and/or ZXCV row, so I don't see the problem.
 
as far as i can tell, _wb_ didn't post a new layout, but one which was finished by the time the poll got locked...

i also prefer dedicated F11 to anything else (pause, break, etc.).
 
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Except if he ignores this thread and reveals his ideal based on the poll results and a number of people start complaining that they liked yours better.
 Well yes, but no matter what ED does, there can always be people who start complaining. If he takes layout 7 exactly as is, some people (perhaps even including people who proposed or voted for layout 7) might complain that he should have done more to take properties of the runner-ups into account. If he modifies layout 7, some people will complain that he shouldn't have touched it. And so on.

I still like to think that this thread does more to help ED than to make things hard. That is, if we don't waste too many posts on meta-discussions about the usefulness and potential dangers of this discussion.
So - ignore the dangers or, for that matter, anyone who thinks different to you on the topic.
I started this thread to help ED with the "finetuning" of the keymat design.
No, you really didn't. You may be telling yourself that you did it for those reasons but look at reality.

NONE of the top 3 keyboards incorporate your Greek and Math symbols shifting idea, yet you included it in your 'synthesis'.
No I didn't. My synthesis does not have labels for GREEK and MATH. Those who still want it, will have to configure it on something like Fn+Shift+G/M, unlabeled.
Really? Read your own 'synthesis' layout as linked:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f6ce9cc204bf2037187d57c9485f740

"Fn+Shift+G for Greek letters, Fn+Shift+M for math symbols"

NONE of the top 3 keyboards incorporate F11 on the attic (top) row. One comment that ED thought that was cool though, and here it is.
It's not just ED who liked F11 up top.
 The one layout with F11 up top was layout 11. 22 people of 192 or 11% of the voters liked that feature enough to vote for a keyboard with it present. It is not a horrid idea, but incorporating it should not change the other features of 7 & 1 which BOTH had Pause on top primary.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had the keyboard backlight on the Fn layer. You put it on the shift layer.
Does it make a big difference whether it is on the Shift or Fn layer? Would you like it better if Pause and CapsLock were on the Shift layer instead?
Yes, it DOES make a big difference. Those of us 'in the know' will quickly re-map the 2nd redundant/extra brightness key to other capabilities. We can do this with minimal impact to the keyboard IF they use unmodified key for screen backlight and Fn+key for the keyboard backlight. If you put those on shift and other functions on the Fn layer, we loose that ability as critical keys are, in your layout, mapped and labeled to those Fn layers.
2/3 of the top 3 keyboards had pause as a primary top level key in the attic row. You put it on the Fn layer.
Right. I haven't seen any reactions of people voting for layout 7 or 1 because of their primary Pause key, so I assumed it is fine to move it to the Fn layer. The Pandora didn't even have a Pause key, and on most laptop keyboards it's either missing or at an Fn layer.

Do you have particular applications in mind where a dedicated Pause key would be important?

We could make Pause a dedicated key up top and put F11/F12 on Backspace/Enter if you like, it's just that according to how I read the poll thread, people are more interested in a dedicated F11 key than in a dedicated Pause key.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

People VOTED for layouts with dedicated pause keys. There wasn't a, 'but I'd like to have something else there instead' crowd either. You're assuming that because there wasn't a bunch of people lauding over the dedicated Pause key that it doesn't matter?

Pause and break are the same key/call/function/result. Ctrl+Pause/Break is a very common escape/exit/break call in old PC games and programs. It can also be handy under command line Linux.

2/3 of the top 3 keyboards kept the non-English letters mostly confined to the 2nd row, yet you chose the lowest ranked of the 3's positioning of these keys and ruined the theme and aesthetics of the two lower symbol rows that people liked. Now there are German letters blended into the symbols.
You mean the öä below ü like on a German keyboard? This is from layout 1, which is the second-highest ranked layout. People have said that they like that arrangement for the German letters.All of the top-3 layouts have non-English letters on the ASDF and/or ZXCV row, so I don't see the problem.
You're right that they're present - but they were also all lower case to minimize their visual impact and be printed literal to Fn+key action. You have used giant capital letters - which is a label for the Fn+Shift+key action for those keys. So, you used the uppercase letters from Layout #2 - I'm guessing that may be because you used #2 as your base template instead of starting with #7.
So, it's pretty clear that you're starting with YOUR layout (#2) and incorporating design differences from #7, #1 and #10 and #11. Flip it around. Start with #7 and the assumption that the voters may have been cuing off of subtle features or design ques that you may not want or understand. Don't change the substance. Tweak, don't start over.

Since you're determined to do this regardless of whether ED wants it done or not, here is what I had sent to ED for the poll:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/90af356f62ad4e5cc98b56983aef01fa

1. Backspace has made a triumphant return to the main keyboard area.

2. Insert, Delete, PgUp, PgDd, Home, End are reunited.

3. Esc has it's own key, top and left, just like on a real keyboard.

4. All 'symbol pairs' from the US standard keyboard are present in the Fn layer of the two lower rows.

5. There is a distinct harmony at having the right edge read top to bottom: Backspace, Enter, Shift, Fn.

6. No word based labels on main keyboard letter keys (less clutter).

You can use that as a base to work from if it will help. At least then the vestigial design elements from your old template won't be as likely to overrun the layout.
 
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as far as i can tell, _wb_ didn't post a new layout, but one which was finished by the time the poll got locked...

i also prefer dedicated F11 to anything else (pause, break, etc.).
And he was posting those in the polling thread where ED had specifically asked for it to stop.

Then he kept doing it, which split the conversation and masked people making statements about actual preferences.

Those few who stated actual preferences were repeatedly jumped on and berated by two of the other designers - who picked apart the stated opinions and told the reviewers why they were 'wrong'.

The whole thing turned into a bad environment - ED asked for it to all stop. So, the 'work' done in the polling thread feels somehow tainted. Like evidence seized without proper warrant.
 
My proposed synthesis layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f6ce9cc204bf2037187d57c9485f740) does not have labels for Greek and Math on the keymat. The text on the right, which are suggestions for default software mappings, are not supposed to be printed on the keymat. The text

"Pyra keyboard layout proposal

compromise proposal

18 July 2015"

is also not supposed tot be printed on the keymat.
 
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My proposed synthesis layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f6ce9cc204bf2037187d57c9485f740) does not have labels for Greek and Math on the keymat. The text on the right, which are suggestions for default software mappings, are not supposed to be printed on the keymat. The text

"Pyra keyboard layout proposal

compromise proposal

18 July 2015"

is also not supposed tot be printed on the keymat.
What you have printed on the right are basically project design requirements - the instructions and clarifications of what needs to be done to make it work. You included that in there - so at that point it IS a design requirement. The Greek/Math thing is an unnecessary design element that should be shed from the initial release. It complicates and adds a LOT of extra fat to the keyboard layout build process. Someone would have to build the logic to 'lock' Greek/Math forward AND build those translation tables between the key codes and the resulting character codes. If you want to build that 'feature' as a secondary or alternative keyboard driver or PND equivalent after release - cool. It does not need to be there - or referenced in the design document now.

Again, you're starting at the wrong perspective. You took your #2 layout design and made it more like #7, #1, #10 and #11. Everything that scored at or less than #6 (including #6) should probably be discarded from consideration at this point. Individual features (F11/F12 in attic) may be something to look at IFF it can be done without wrecking the features, themes and aesthetics that are present in the Gold (#7), Silver (#1) and Bronze (#10) layouts - with preference to that order.

I still want to know what ED's plans are - he has so far chosen not to share them.
 
My proposed synthesis layout (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4f6ce9cc204bf2037187d57c9485f740) does not have labels for Greek and Math on the keymat. The text on the right, which are suggestions for default software mappings, are not supposed to be printed on the keymat. The text


"Pyra keyboard layout proposal


compromise proposal


18 July 2015"


is also not supposed tot be printed on the keymat.
What you have printed on the right are basically project design requirements - the instructions and clarifications of what needs to be done to make it work. You included that in there - so at that point it IS a design requirement. The Greek/Math thing is an unnecessary design element that should be shed from the initial release. It complicates and adds a LOT of extra fat to the keyboard layout build process. Someone would have to build the logic to 'lock' Greek/Math forward AND build those translation tables between the key codes and the resulting character codes. If you want to build that 'feature' as a secondary or alternative keyboard driver or PND equivalent after release - cool. It does not need to be there - or referenced in the design document now.

You seem to be confused about how keyboards work. Do you really think that something like Greek/Math (or the dead diacritics for that matter) would be handled directly by the hardware or hardcoded in the low-level keyboard driver? That would be insane. Features like this should be handled using xkb configuration files and custom Compose sequences (Compose sequences do not have to start with a press of the Compose key, dead diacritics can also be handled as Compose sequences).


Here is an example of such configuration files for "dead Greek" and "dead currency symbol": http://download.tuxfamily.org/dvorak/xkb/fr-dvorak-bepo-xkb-1.0rc2.tgz


The comments I put on the right hand side of all my proposals, including the synthesis proposal in the first post of this thread, are not "design requirements". They're just suggestions for the default software configuration. I write those suggestions to ensure that a sensible default is possible, combining as many features as I can think of without internal inconsistencies. But by no means does this actually have to be the default configuration.


We can always decide that e.g. dead caron, dead stroke, dead grave, dead Greek or dead Math should not be in the default configuration, for whatever reason (e.g. to avoid confusion when a user presses those unlabeled Shift+Fn keys, which is a valid concern). There is no obligation whatsoever to implement that functionality, because those things are not labeled on the keymat. Still, it's good to know that the option is there to do it. If someone wants MATH at Shift+Fn+M, then it can be done because that combination is not already in use. In the original layout 7, there was ç at Fn+M, which means Shift+Fn+M should produce Ç so there is no room there for MATH (or µ, or whatever you might want to put on Shift+Fn+M, unless you break the expectations of the label and drop the capital version of ç).


Anyway, we are deciding now what labels to put on the physical keymat. There are lots of choices to be made regarding the default software configuration: sticky Shift or non-sticky Shift, grave/tilde dead by default or not, Shift+Shift for Shift Lock and Meta+Meta for Meta Lock, media keys at Super+shoulders or not, dead Greek or not, and so on, and so on. The only constraint we create, the only commitment we have to make right now, is what is actually going to be printed on the keymat. The default software configuration should respect what is shown on the actual hardware. The "Greek/Math thing", as well as many other things suggested in those notes on the right, is not one of those commitments. Unlike how it was in layout 2 from the poll.

In any case, whatever the default configuration will be, I would like to make a modular set of configuration files with a nice simple GUI dialog box to let you customize things a bit (for deep customization you'll have to edit the actual config files yourself).

Again, you're starting at the wrong perspective. You took your #2 layout design and made it more like #7, #1, #10 and #11. Everything that scored at or less than #6 (including #6) should probably be discarded from consideration at this point. Individual features (F11/F12 in attic) may be something to look at IFF it can be done without wrecking the features, themes and aesthetics that are present in the Gold (#7), Silver (#1) and Bronze (#10) layouts - with preference to that order.


I still want to know what ED's plans are - he has so far chosen not to share them.
No, I started with the template I have been using lately (which closer resembles the actual shape of the keys), and put layout 7 on it. Then I made some changes to make it more like layout 1 in its positioning of the non-ASCII letters, I reordered the bottom two rows for efficiency (which was the main advantage of layout 10: important Fn symbols easy to reach) while maintaining the Shift-pair convention of layout 7, and I put F11/F12 up top. That's basically it.

It is not at all like layout 2, which has Delete/Backspace on the action buttons, a dedicated -_ key, Esc at Fn+Q, Caps Lock at Fn+Tab, F11/F12 at Fn+O/P, a dedicated Pause key and a hardware key, Shift and Fn on the left, Insert on Fn+Space, and labeled GREEK and MATH keys at Fn+G and Fn+M. The only thing I took from that was the option to have unlabeled GREEK and MATH keys at Shift+Fn+G/M.
 
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