Action button labels

[Neelix]

Well the part of the reason for moving to non-latin characters was to avoid any overlap with the latin characters on the regular keyboard.  For that reason I'd prefer characters that look nothing like latin letters.  That being said, I can see some sense in a compromise position,  and Exophase seems to have come up with a good one. 

- Neelix

 

[God Ginrai]

Well the part of the reason for moving to non-latin characters was to avoid any overlap with the latin characters on the regular keyboard.  For that reason I'd prefer characters that look nothing like latin letters.  That being said, I can see some sense in a compromise position,  and Exophase seems to have come up with a good one. 

- Neelix

Except that being able to communicate what the buttons are is integral to the experience. If you use Greek letters that do not look like Latin characters, then you're back at people not being able to communicate about the buttons with others.

-God Ginrai

 

[Neelix]

*shrugs*  That's where education comes in..   prominent info graphics in prominent locations  showing the names of the letters in question.   It's one of those practical applications where a small amount of information (e.g. the names of 6 Greek letters) is easy to learn with enough exposure.    Given that, we should be able to get away with using just about any symbols regardless of obscurity.

But again,  while that's my preference, I do think Exophase's solution is a fair compromise, as long as distinct versions of the letters are used  e.g. χ, not χ

- Neelix

 

[God Ginrai]

*shrugs*  That's where education comes in..   prominent info graphics in prominent locations  showing the names of the letters in question.   It's one of those practical applications where a small amount of information (e.g. the names of 6 Greek letters) is easy to learn with enough exposure.    Given that, we should be able to get away with using just about any symbols regardless of obscurity.

But again,  while that's my preference, I do think Exophase's solution is a fair compromise, as long as distinct versions of the letters are used  e.g. χ, not χ

- Neelix

For a Greek layout, Exophase's is the best. However, this whole Greek thing is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist that creates more problems than it solves.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

What I like about Exophase's αβχγ proposal:

• Greek letters, so reference to Pyra/Pandora mythodology
• Good backwards compatibility with Pandora
• Possible to refer to the buttons as ABXY, no need for unicode characters
• Possible to refer to the buttons as αβχγ, avoiding confusion with the keyboard keys ABXY

What I don't like about the αβχγ proposal:

• Looks like just a "weird font" for ABXY; people (including devs) will probably often not bother to use the αβχγ symbols so confusion with keyboard keys ABXY will tend to remain
• It is not a logical progression in the Greek alphabet; αβγδ would make more sense (but has other problems)
• If you extend it to 6 buttons, you get the same problem as with ABXY (no logical way to extend the sequence)
• I don't really like the "handwritten" look of lowercase Greek letters, the capital letters look more solid/robust/professional to me (aesthetically)

We could almost just as well use uppercase Alpha Beta Chi Upsilon: label the buttons ABXY and tell people those letters are Greek

 

[Exophase]

I don't think you need a logical way to extend ABXY or something ABXY-like. XY wasn't a logical extension of AB to begin with.

 

[God Ginrai]

I don't think you need a logical way to extend ABXY or something ABXY-like. XY wasn't a logical extension of AB to begin with.

Or... we can just do ABC XYZ.

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

Or... we can just do ABC XYZ.

It doesn't really help win anyone over by just stubbornly repeating your preferences. Or maybe it does, I don't really know.. but it probably shouldn't.

People have real issues with ABXY, they're not just aesthetic, you shouldn't pretend they don't exist.

Likewise, people have real issues with Greek letters (take your pick), they're not just aesthetic, and others shouldn't pretend they don't exist.

I doubt we're really going to get anywhere without a poll, but first it'd be good if ED could let everyone know if this should even be open to discussion.

Nonetheless, my personal rebuttal to _wb_'s problems with my suggestion:

Looks like just a "weird font" for ABXY; people (including devs) will probably often not bother to use the αβχγ symbols so confusion with keyboard keys ABXY will tend to remain

The question is, what would these people do with other symbols? I think they'd avoid other Greek letters too (for example, if I wanted them in DraStic I have to modify my font and use special codes for them, which I'd probably do but it is actual work) and potentially spell them or use weird ASCII characters which could be more confusing.

It is not a logical progression in the Greek alphabet; αβγδ would make more sense (but has other problems)

IMO not a big deal, since people don't tend to think much about the lexicographical progression of Greek letters. That's not how they're generally picked as symbols.

If you extend it to 6 buttons, you get the same problem as with ABXY (no logical way to extend the sequence)

Doesn't seem like a big deal either, and part of me would rather have the buttons named something else anyway just to separate them from a primary four that forms the main set of Pandora buttons and what's used for most other platforms. As it is right now we don't actually know what physical layout ED has in mind so it's hard to say what really fits best, if you had this for example:


A
X Y z
B
c
It wouldn't be unnatural at all ;p

I don't really like the "handwritten" look of lowercase Greek letters, the capital letters look more solid/robust/professional to me (aesthetically)

That is of course purely subjective, personally I like the look of the more stylized and curved lowercase letters more.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15736-action-button-labels/?p=318143

 

[moxie]

Since this topic is now officially looping in on itself, can we fairly assume that the space here below Shenmues back-reference is unused and can safely be used to discuss hamsters, duct tape and unicorns?

 

[God Ginrai]

It doesn't really help win anyone over by just stubbornly repeating your preferences. Or maybe it does, I don't really know.. but it probably shouldn't.

People have real issues with ABXY, they're not just aesthetic, you shouldn't pretend they don't exist.

Likewise, people have real issues with Greek letters (take your pick), they're not just aesthetic, and others shouldn't pretend they don't exist.

Yes, but as far as anyone has been able to tell me, there are only 2 problems with ABC XYZ:

• The buttons have the same labels as keyboard buttons and thus can be confused.
• The layout will not be the same as the Pandora layout

You already pointed out the pointlessness of number 1 in the last topic:

A lot of people argued against Pandora's letters, but I rarely hear about people confusing them with the keys. Often it's clear in context; at the very least, it makes more sense to prioritize functionality of a button before a key, or key letters may have another obvious function in the context (like if entering text is possible). If it's still ambiguous extra language helps, ie "X button" vs "X key" is a lot less likely to cause confusion. Or the user can just try both, usually they won't both do something if it isn't obvious.

 And number 2 is trivial as well. As you said yourself:

Yes, but you're missing my point. Borrowing Klumpen's suggestion, (purely for being a positional representation) it's a lot easier to remember that East=A, South=B, North=X, West=Y than it is to remember B=A, X=B, Y=X, A=Y.

Basically, using the same symbols you are mapping for the buttons they are being mapped onto is inherently confusing, unless the symbol mapping already matches the button mapping.

I don't agree. Well, maybe you feel that way, but I can't see it being like that for me. But once I memorize a platform's buttons by position it doesn't matter to me what the Pandora's buttons are named, and I'd never try to memorize a correspondence that way.

We're going to have to learn what emulated systems buttons correspond to what buttons on the Pyra, because as you mentioned, there will be a mismatch no matter what the buttons are called unless you use screens on the buttons:

Nor have I, but many emulated games will tell you which buttons to press and that will (naturally) refer to the emulated layout.

I've also once had someone (I think it may have been Askarus) tell me to press B to do something in a DS game in DraStic, meaning DS B which is Pandora X.

Yeah but those two things will be the case no matter what the buttons are called. Unless we want to put little displays in the buttons and have the labels change with the program, and please no one seriously suggest that.

 That makes learning the swapped A and X buttons simple in comparison. And, in return for that, you get a perfect mapping for the Sega Genesis/Megadrive, Sega CD, Sega 32X, Sega Saturn, and the Sega Dreamcast.

Learning the swapped A and X buttons would be no different than learning any other emulated system's buttons, which is simple once you learn the button positions.

I'm not pretending these issues don't exist. I've explained multiple times in this topic why they are exaggerated issues.

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

Yes, as far as I'm concerned the correlation between the button placement and any console you're emulating barely matters. Those consoles have their own standard layout. They're not hard to memorize. It's not like the game developers expected people to look at their controller every time a button was mentioned. Sometimes the game will have an image of the controller to show you the placement.

This is NOT that same as with Pandora compatibility, because it's there's much less of a barrier between a legacy PND and a thing you're emulating. It might not even be obvious if something is Pandora or Pyra software. There'll be new software that is meant to run on both. There'll be quick ports from one to the other. If sticking with ABXY it should be in the same layout as on Pandora. Arguing for a Sega layout just makes you look partial to Sega systems. You could just as easily argue that a Nintendo compatible layout gets you the correct mapping for NES, GB, GBC, GBA, SNES, DS, 3DS, Gamecube, Wii, Wii U, etc - but what's the point? It's arbitrary.

I personally find "X button" unambiguous. Apparently some people disagree. Technically all the keyboard keys are also buttons. I'm not going to argue that something obvious to me is supposed to be obvious to everyone.

 

[God Ginrai]

This is NOT that same as with Pandora compatibility, because it's there's much less of a barrier between a legacy PND and a thing you're emulating. It might not even be obvious if something is Pandora or Pyra software. There'll be new software that is meant to run on both. There'll be quick ports from one to the other. If sticking with ABXY it should be in the same layout as on Pandora. Arguing for a Sega layout just makes you look partial to Sega systems. You could just as easily argue that a Nintendo compatible layout gets you the correct mapping for NES, GB, GBC, GBA, SNES, DS, 3DS, Gamecube, Wii, Wii U, etc - but what's the point? It's arbitrary.

Actually, the Nintendo layout would not get you Wii or the Gamecube. The Wii uses 1 and 2 instead of A and B. And the ABXY buttons on the GC are not in the same positions as the ABXY buttons on other Nintendo consoles.

Also, it's been mentioned multiple times that due to hardfp, most Pandora software won't "just run". The solutions I've seen people talking about involve either some compatibility layer like Ginge or using a chroot for the Pandora apps. Either way, you're essentially entering a "Pandora mode" which is effectively no different than emulation. (run an app that lets you play games from another system)

I personally find "X button" unambiguous. Apparently some people disagree. Technically all the keyboard keys are also buttons. I'm not going to argue that something obvious to me is supposed to be obvious to everyone.

Yes, but as you said, (I made sure to include that whole post for a reason) if the button doesn't produce the desired result, anyone would logically try the key next to see if that was the correct thing to press.

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

It doesn't matter how backwards compatibility is achieved, the question is whether or not you'll be able to launch legacy PNDs directly. I don't see any reason why the user would have to enter a particular mode to do this, even if it involves a chroot or something like Ginge. That's not going to look like running an emulator.

Gamecube isn't different so much as it's deformed from having the buttons skewed around, you can't really say that it'd fit better if X and Y were swapped; the main thing is B/A matches. Wii isn't just the wiimote and nunchuck, there's also the classic controller for example.. Anyone, you didn't really answer my question: why choose a Sega layout over a Nintendo one? Why change it from what was on Pandora? How do you argue that emulator matching doesn't matter then argue that it's better to be Sega-like?

 

[God Ginrai]

It doesn't matter how backwards compatibility is achieved, the question is whether or not you'll be able to launch legacy PNDs directly. I don't see any reason why the user would have to enter a particular mode to do this, even if it involves a chroot or something like Ginge. That's not going to look like running an emulator.

Gamecube isn't different so much as it's deformed from having the buttons skewed around, you can't really say that it'd fit better if X and Y were swapped; the main thing is B/A matches. Wii isn't just the wiimote and nunchuck, there's also the classic controller for example.. Anyone, you didn't really answer my question: why choose a Sega layout over a Nintendo one? Why change it from what was on Pandora? How do you argue that emulator matching doesn't matter then argue that it's better to be Sega-like?

The Gamecube is different.


Y X
B A X != Y A
B
Also, the Classic controller is not the official standard for the Wii. It is an optional layout that is not supported by the majority of Wii games.
As for why Sega over Nintendo? Sega actually had a six-button layout that was consistently used. The Nintendo only had one six-button layout, the N64. And that conflicts w/ the standard Nintendo layout because it throws out X and Y. Plus, the Sega layout is easy to learn how to switch to the Nintendo layout with, (just swap X with Y and A with B) unlike say, the GP2X/Pandora layout (swap A with B, then B with X, then X with Y)

-God Ginrai

 

[Exophase]

Okay, so how do you go from arguing that matching emulators is irrelevant to arguing that it's good to fit what Sega did? Are you going to answer that or what?

This whole thing is so overblown it's unbelievable, I really don't care very much what's picked, I'm more amazed people are so invested in this. I'm going to stop arguing anything before I make people think I care a lot more than I do (if I haven't already), trying to facilitate compromise for something people think is much less subjective than they realize doesn't look like it's really going anywhere.

ED, please just say something

 

[slaeshjag]

I'm amazed that over a week since I made the silly suggestion of using greek, you guys are still debating it

 

[moxie]

I still vote for hamsters and ducttape.

 

[bzar]

Next up: ED announces all buttons will be labeled with the chinese symbol for "tree".

 

[God Ginrai]

Okay, so how do you go from arguing that matching emulators is irrelevant to arguing that it's good to fit what Sega did? Are you going to answer that or what?

Don't twist my words. You asked, and then got angry at me for not answering "Why Sega layout over Nintendo layout?" I explained to you about how Nintendo layout was made for 4-button devices and that the only 6-button Ninteodo layout does not match the normal Nintendo layout, whereas Sega's layout has been consistently used for 6-button consoles and controllers. I never said that matching emulators was irrelevant, only that learning the buttons was not hard.

I have consistently maintained that the most important thing was an easy to communicate layout, which any Latin Character layout would fit. (Nintendo or Sega layout for example) As such, it makes more sense to use the layout that was designed for 6-button controllers instead of using the one that was designed for 4 buttons and having to go through all of this again to figure out what to call the last 2 buttons.

-God Ginrai