Action button labels

[milkshake]

So you knew that on a regular keyboard there are things called keys but when presented with a qwerty keyboard on the pandora you associated them with the term buttons?

Surely a reasonable perception would have been to go with what you have used before on a keyboard that being the term key?

 

[Neelix]

Not what I said at all.

Obviously my knowledge of keyboards colours the way I think of them. What I'm saying is that removed from the context of a keyboard, had you given me one such button in isolation, I would not have called that style of button a key.

- Neelix

 

[Kiga]

Lol that doesn't mean his argument is invalid why do you say that?

Really also have to explain that?

 If "whatever choice is decided people will learn to use it." so the fact some people don't know greek letters name isn't an argument since they will learn to use it.

Nobody need to tell you what button you shoud press because you should know what information you have to send by reading manual. Because of emulation, someone have to write somewhere, what information correspond to what labels that's all.

That's not true. If I'm talking to my friend, I will tell him tips and tricks about how to do things, often mentioning button combinations. I don't hand him a manual for the game. Users need to be able to easily communicate which buttons they are speaking about.

Okay, but even if you need to tell a friend often, that's not a problem because you will learn. Label isn't a big deal but I put consistency over habits.

Button are made to send information to the computer. There are many buttons because there are many information, labels are made to know which button send what information, so to differiantiate buttons.

Keys may tell you what information they send, but Game buttons do not. An Start button on a controller does not send the string "Start" to its host device.

A button send an information to computer, no one can deny. In a Game the information return a virtual action. So if you want a virtual action, you have to know what information will return your virtual action, so that you will push the right button which send that information and which is differentiated by  a label (you have to learn what label match with what information).

 

[SNESFAN]

 

Lol that doesn't mean his argument is invalid why do you say that?

Really also have to explain that?

 If "whatever choice is decided people will learn to use it." so the fact some people don't know greek letters name isn't an argument since they will learn to use it.

most people don't know the greek alphabet fluently, especially not the letters chosen.

your idea of consistency is to remove the abxy we have now and replace it with non-english letters? Just so we're all on the same page.

 

[Kiga]

My idea of consistency is to use labeling for what it was made. Differenciate buttons. And also using labeling which are related to Pyra or at least not too related to another thing.

 

[God Ginrai]

Obviously my knowledge of keyboards colours the way I think of them. What I'm saying is that removed from the context of a keyboard, had you given me one such button in isolation, I would not have called that style of button a key.

 And if you saw black Lego minifig legs, you wouldn't call them Darth Vader's legs. However, when they are connected to the torso, head, and helmet of a Darth Vader Lego minifig, you would call them Darth Vader's legs.

Seeing one individual key does not make any difference. The fact of the matter is, there is a keyboard, users know what a keyboard is, and they know that a keyboard contains keys.

Okay, but even if you need to tell a friend often, that's not a problem because you will learn. Label isn't a big deal but I put consistency over habits.

 No, because if I tell him to press omega and he doesn't know what omega is, then he can't learn that. If I tell him to press A and he sees A on his buttons, then he can use that knowledge right away.

A button send an information to computer, no one can deny. In a Game the information return a virtual action. So if you want a virtual action, you have to know what information will return your virtual action, so that you will push the right button which send that information and which is differentiated by  a label (you have to learn what label match with what information).

Yes, a label is used to communicate which button to the user.

-God Ginrai

 

[TrashyMG]

My idea of consistency is to use labeling for what it was made. Differenciate buttons. And also using labeling which are related to Pyra or at least not too related to another thing.

I feel it's important to keep consistency with the Pandora Layout.

 

[God Ginrai]

My idea of consistency is to use labeling for what it was made. Differenciate buttons. And also using labeling which are related to Pyra or at least not too related to another thing.

I feel it's important to keep consistency with the Pandora Layout.

There's no need to do that. Doing so will only limit us. We should be choosing a layout that makes more sense to new users. Thus, one where all of the buttons have a logical progression and are easy to identify and communicate.

-God Ginrai

 

[TrashyMG]

There's no need to do that. Doing so will only limit us. We should be choosing a layout that makes more sense to new users. Thus, one where all of the buttons have a logical progression and are easy to identify and communicate.

I don't see it limiting at all, please elaborate.
Please explain to me how ab xy ..etc labels are anymore limiting than odd Greek characters and Roman numerals.

 

[Fzero]

If we do end up getting these characters:

Π Ω Δ χ

I'm going to referring to them by their similar looking PlayStation button names, Square, Circle, Triangle and X.

Perhaps Greek Square, Greek Circle, Greek Triangle and Greek X though

 

[Kiga]

Okay, but even if you need to tell a friend often, that's not a problem because you will learn. Label isn't a big deal but I put consistency over habits.

 
No, because if I tell him to press omega and he doesn't know what omega is, then he can't learn that. If I tell him to press A and he sees A on his buttons, then he can use that knowledge right away.

If your friend is a Pyra owner he already learned that. If he isn't and is with you you just have to show him. If he is away you just have to write the correct symbol or "omega" and he will google it, but if he is away he should be a Pyra owner (unless you lent him).

A button send an information to computer, no one can deny. In a Game the information return a virtual action. So if you want a virtual action, you have to know what information will return your virtual action, so that you will push the right button which send that information and which is differentiated by  a label (you have to learn what label match with what information).

Yes, a label is used to communicate which button to the user.

Who communicate? Nobody is there to communicate when you have to set up what button send what information.

My idea of consistency is to use labeling for what it was made. Differenciate buttons. And also using labeling which are related to Pyra or at least not too related to another thing.

I feel it's important to keep consistency with the Pandora Layout.

Well, that's an argument but.

Pyra is an Improvement of Pandora that's why we should choose what is the best. Pyra isn't Pandora, that's why we chose a name, logo etc.. it's also became modular and in these consoles' history, Pandora will look as a prototype.

Choose latin letters while they are already used is a nonsense which we would correct for Pyra and future's console.

 

[Klumpen]

There is way too much blah in this thread.

 

[_wb_]

This really isn't an issue and it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled, because while playing you won't be looking at them anyway.

 OK, I somewhat agree to that, but why then such a strong opinion on using Latin letters to label them?

 Because they are easy to communicate to others, unlike Greek letters.

I was responding to "it doesn't matter one iota how the buttons are labelled". I agree that it does matter, and that ease of communication is an important aspect. I do think that if buttons have unique labels, it is easier to communicate which one you mean.

I don't really like symbols that are too "specialized", like playing card suits, chess pieces, music notes, etc. They give a false impression that the device is not universal but is specifically designed to play card games / chess / music composition. Mathematical symbols may also somewhat suffer from that, and additionally I think that it would be confusing in mathematical software, because most likely those keys would not produce the corresponding symbols, but just map to Home/End/PgUp/PgDn like in any other desktop application.

 By this reasoning, Greek letters would give the false impression that the Pyra is a graphing calculator. I honestly can't believe you tried to float this argument. It's utter BS and you know it.

No. Greek letters are not specific to graphing calculators, not any more than Latin letters are specific to, say, chemical elements.

 

[Fzero]

Doesn't Roman Numerals have the same problem with key/btn confusion to some people though?

Roman Numeral I [as in One/1]

Could look like I [uppercase i/I] or l [Lowercase l/L]

Roman Numeral V [as in Five/5]

Could look like letter key 'V' in Uppercase

Edit: Roman Numerals weren't mentioned were they I just confused myself thinking of those when read Latin letters... I don't even know what Latin letters are.

Time to hit Google up...

 

[TrashyMG]

I don't even know what Latin letters are.

You may even be using some of them and not know it.

 

[Fzero]

Seems I do Latin up on the top left circle of this Venn.

Quite a few are the same then

 

[_wb_]

Since when do people who grew up with spectrum or c64 etc refer to keys as buttons? if they did that's news to me.


Everyone knows the difference between a "key" and a "button" i.e. a doorbell is a button. A piano's use keys and so do keyboards so if you were to use those items then you generally would know the terms "key" and "type" and if someone told you to press the A "button" you would likely not associate that with a "key" and vice versa.


I'm not being funny but this argument about the nouns "keys" and "buttons" or the verbs "type" and "press" being hard to grasp or differentiate is just silly.

Maybe this is because I'm not a native English speaker, but to me the distinction between "key" and "button" or "type" and "press" is not nearly as obvious as you seem to think.


E.g. the expression "Press any key to continue" is wrong according to you, because you can only type keys and press buttons. It is a commonly used expression though. Also, according to Wiktionary, "keypress" and "key press" are valid words.

This is the relevant definition of "button" according to Wiktionary:

A mechanical device meant to be pressed with a finger in order to open or close an electric circuit or to activate a mechanism.

This is the relevant definition of "key":

One of several small, usually square buttons on a typewriter or computer keyboard, mostly corresponding to text characters.

So by definition, a key is a button.

Also, note that the game controls (dpad, action buttons, shoulder buttons) also serve as keyboard keys (arrow keys, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, modifier keys) on both the Pandora and Pyra. So even if you make the hard distinction between buttons and keys, you have to admit that the same physical piece of plastic can act as both, depending on context.

 

[_wb_]

If we do end up getting these characters:


Π Ω Δ χ

I'm going to referring to them by their similar looking PlayStation button names, Square, Circle, Triangle and X.


Perhaps Greek Square, Greek Circle, Greek Triangle and Greek X though

Yes, and that is perfectly fine. Or if they are colored, you can refer to them by color. Or by PgUp/PgDn/Home/End. There is no need to learn their Greek name if you don't want to. It would be poor practice for devs to write, say, "OMEGA" in a help screen, they should write Ω instead.

 

[_wb_]

My idea of consistency is to use labeling for what it was made. Differenciate buttons. And also using labeling which are related to Pyra or at least not too related to another thing.

I feel it's important to keep consistency with the Pandora Layout.

Yes. We need small-print labels anyway for Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/etc.; it's no big deal to add the Pandora layout to that for backwards compatibility, like this:

 

[SNESFAN]

redundant functions and labels in action buttons maybe? Use the common qwerty standard for most games Q, E, C, F,V, R, G (whatever order) and WASD or arrow keys on the dpad ZXBT or 1234 on the shoulders (maybe space in there somewhere)

unique labels aren't required or unique designator as the mapping would be identical to the keyboard, easy to understand, communicate, and PC gamers will have a point of reference.

Console gamers may have a harder time, but no harder than if a non-english set is chosen.

Only con I see is the loss of new functions as a secondary functions on the action buttons. It also "feels" like it's just a silkscreen for a set of mappings that may or may not be someone's preference.